balletla

Sorry BBB, but I am not sure how a year 10 boy at RBS can be a technically better dancer in absolute terms than a 6.2 boy at RBS (otherwise what is the extra 4 years training for?)? He can only be a better dancer relative to his age. That's why I was querying on what basis this competition is judged. I take the point that he could have more dance quality, stage presence etc., but again, that's why I asked on what basis the competition is judged. Most competitions have a large technical element, otherwise everyone would perform the easiest variation option. I agree that there are obviously rare exceptions to this e.g. Sergei Polunin at 15 was probably better technically and in all other ways than anyone else at 17, but he is rare. I would like to point out again that these posts are not related to anyone specifically, or imply that anyone is not deserving of their prize. I just find it interesting that so much store is set by these types of competitions and yet often they are subjective and the criteria for judging is not always clear. I think this is actually more important for those who don't get through to understand and not to go away with any impressions that they might not be good enough.

I don't think I have ever suggested that anyone doesn't deserve their place. Just trying to understand what basis the competition is judged on. Some competitions look for a certain standard irrespective of age and there is a common acceptance that the younger ones are in it for experience and the older ones who are more accomplished technically tend to provide the winner. Either that or there are different prizes for different age groups. Clearly this competition tries to combine both but I am not sure that it is realistic to have one assessment across an age group that is 3 years apart and spans 4 school years.

I suppose they must take this into account - it's the only explanation for why a year 10 boy can make it to finals over a 6.2 boy (both RBS) - despite all the performance skill in the world, one is 3 years ahead of the other in terms of technical accomplishment.

Kiely has a British passport. Of more interest was the ex-White Lodge Japanese student who is now at ENBS who has only been training in this country since Sep 2011 so does not meet the 3 year criteria. However she didn't get to semis so it has not become an issue.

Would also like to understand some of the judging decisions. I am told that they take age and experience into account. I hope that's true otherwise it seems inexplicable that an amazing sixth form boy at RBS who has been selected for finals for the last two years, didn't even make it to semis this year and he is on amazing form.

Well done Angel and Belljul. Heard there were 82 dancers taking part today and 32 are through to the semis tomorrow. 16 will then be chosen for the final next week.

Yes I know that the BRB girls are generally on the shorter side but I felt that there were a couple of girls who were so short that they looked like they had been brought in from Elmhurst's year 7 next to the others.

Talking about year 9 only; four years ago Elmhurst took 4 students assessed out of WL. Threeyears ago they made offers but the students went elsewhere. Two years ago no one was assessed out. Not sure what happened last year.

That's really interesting but I don't really understand it if I'm honest. Which is which?

So who did you agree with the medal placings in the pairs ice dance today? I have to say I couldn't decide between the Canadians and the Americans. I really didn't like the 3rd place Russians even though everybody kept raving about their Black Swan routine. I actually really liked the Russians who came 5th. They did a very emotional performance but didn't get a very good mark for it. Also, while we're on it, since when did Sue Barker qualify as an ice skating commentator? Lovely as she is, she knows nothing about it and makes embarrassing mistakes which Robin Cousins has to correct. Surely Robin could have done it on his own or with someone else who actually knows about ice skating?

In the UK we have something called the 'red button' which allows you to access not only the main BBC chanel, but also an extra 2 channels, so there are 3 channels in total which always show different live events. I have just been watching the Women's Snow Board Cross event live which was so exciting. This afternoon I'll watch the ice skating short women's programme live as well. I guess you don't have anything like that in the US where you can see live events?

I realised that the only reason that I am watching this is to see the 'real' ballet bits e.g. clips of Northern Ballet, people talking about what it takes to be a professional dancer. I really wish someone would make a series about a real ballet school and company and what it takes. I'm sure the reality of it would be equally as popular without the gimmick of 'big'.

Julie, all the final auditions still take place after half term and those assessed out are invited straight to final.

Anjuli, it might not be the fault of the network, it might be the time difference. The ice skating has been taking place in the evening in Russia which means we have been watching it in the afternoon in the UK. Not sure how far behind you are in Dan Diego but it could be very late the night before if you see what I mean?

There are 8 Italian students in the first year intake into RBS Upper School this year.

What annoys me more than anything is the clip of Monica facetiously dismissing the 'ballet world' for saying that you have to train for 25 hundred hours to be a dancer. Well actually you probably need to train for at least 5x that amount! She then goes on to despair about how far away her dancers are from the professional which is brought into stark reality with a lovely clip of Northern Ballet. Also what has Wayne Sleep being short got to do with people being fat? It's such a tenuous link it's laughable. As someone said earlier, it would have been better if it was just a program about people who gave up ballet for whatever reason and wanted a second chance.

Thank you for posting such an informative post Zacharovitti. This explains why there are a lot of Italian students at RBS Upper School.

The other thing I have noticed is the number and scale of injuries these guys have. The Russian male ice skater said he has had 12 back operations. He is only 31 and has been semi retired for 2 years but come back to do the Olympics. Robin Cousins said his stamina issues meant that he faded in the final minute of the 4 minute routine. The British downhill skier today said she has broken 45 bones and has a steel bar in place to support her shin bone. I don't know how the ice skaters manage to land their jumps on a strip of steel (imagine the concentration of force) on what is effectively an unsprung floor. Their knees and ankles must really pay the price.

I suppose when I started this thread I was looking at the standard achieved in the UK by the age of 16 when auditioning for 6th forms versus the apparently higher standard achieved by those in other countries, particularly Asian countries. This then carries on to a higher standard of achievement at company auditions 3 years later. I assumed that the reason for this was the training systems we have for under 16 vocational ballet training (not necessarily just in vocational schools). So it seems that although the training provided is generally good within the schools and in a number of local ballet schools, the key difference seems to be that other countries seem to put in more training hours at a younger age, rather than a different system of training. I suppose this is consistent with all other pursuits as well - how often have we seen musical 'prodigies' at the age of 4 or 5 from those countries? I can't remember which book it was but I think it was Malcolm Gladwell who said that these musical prodigies are no more talented than in other countries, its just that by age 4, they have already done hundreds of hours more practice than an equally talented British child and this means they are way ahead. I'm not suggesting we all adopt this intensive tiger-mother approach, but maybe there is a case for more hours at age 10-15 than is the current norm?

No it's none of those Stirrups. It was started as a genuine look at whether ballet training in the UK is up to the same standard as that received oversees and look at the reasons why that might be. If you are not interested in adding something constructive to the conversation then maybe better not to post.

But where do they get these private lessons Tulip, given that there isn't a plethora of good ballet teachers out there, especially not many willing to give lessons in school holidays.

Interesting article - thanks for posting. Although I'm not sure the decision to leave Elmhurst was entirely her own. Anyway , just look at the difference in hours of training between Claudia and Tierney at age 15. Claudia was moved up to second year after 6 weeks and I am told that this is very common with students from abroad - again, because they are so much more advanced. Spanner - I don't think it is about over-pushing children or hothousing them but it is about doing more than they do now. Even at White Lodge, the year 10's and 11's only do a 2 hour classical ballet lesson a day.

Christopher Dean was quoted this week as saying that the artistry shown in Bolero in1984 would be lost on today's judges and they wouldn't get anywhere. It makes me so worried for the future of ballet. I enjoyed watching the ice skating today but the only thing that moved me was some of the music choices.

I honestly can't remember where I read it but it was an American review of Osipova, saying how fantastic she was in Giselle which was relayed across the world in cinemas. There were numerous comments from people saying how awful the corp dancers were and how most of them looked no better than good British school students. I am just beginning to feel more and more like our training isn't keeping up with the rest of the world, not even with our American and Australian cousins. It's no good saying that we get there eventually - it's the critical stages of 6th form and company selection that are important.

Just watching the ice-skating and wondering how long before Ballet becomes an Olympic sport marked on 'technical' and 'artistic merit' ratings. It's already happening in competitions, so why not? Oh how I long for the days when ballet really was an art and no-one was judged on how high their leg is or how high they can jump.