mimi66

Finally I can agree with you that we come from two different cultures . Our culture does not dismiss:- 1) dancers who for perfectly valid reasons would not wish to be filmed or photographed without their prior consents as "not serious dancers" ; and 2) ballet class which are not specifically designed to put an amateur performance at the end of predetermined numbers of sessions - as "your standard everyday recreational ballet class". Also we do not do things just because it has always been done before. Generally ballet dancers and teachers do things because it has been proven to be most effective method of learning through years of experience and experiments. We do not confuse "efficiency" with "laziness" or "avoidance of learning essential skills (such as picking up enchainements on the spots, for instance)".

Or one could also suggest that with the amount of time spent on arranging such "shooting" on the spot, the whole class can squeeze in a couple more runs - which will be much more useful and serves better for the purpose of such class - "learning how to dance ballet (at each levels of development)" . Plus it will benefit the whole class, not just the person who wants to video.

Michelle, I think a "performing class" should be put in the correct context first. It is a " leaning process". And if this "performance" (as a step within the learning process) is charged, that is because the organiser is doing this type of courses as fund raising opportunity, as well as an effort to make ballet more familiar to the "mass" . With ever dwindling public funding, ballet companies must come up with variety of "initiatives", rather than concentrating on their core activities...sadly. I do not think participating what you call a "performance class" entitles you to dismiss other classes as "your standard recreational ballet class". That is a huge insult to a lot of members of this forum - those who take ballet classes, those with dancing children, and those who teach classes. As to the expectation of my childhood ballet class, it was the same when we were preparing for our annual recital. What you can't do in the class, you would never be able to do it on stage, after all. Personally, as an adult I would not even dream of performing in public (paying or non-paying) unless I have reached the level where I can "[execute stepwise,] perfectly a scene from one of the classics, only conveyed to you verbally be your teacher by its classical step names (quated from Michelle's above post)", which really is the ability required for advanced/ professional (what you call "your everyday recreational" ) class. But that's just me, and I guess that was because I was lucky to have experienced "performing as part of one's learning" when I was still a child. Sometimes things can only be seen in a correct perspective in hindsight, I guess.

Janet, please rest assured that classes led by responsible, professional teachers would not allow irresponsible filming nor photo-taking of the class (particularly by an amateur), even if it is salsa. So if you ever want to try, go ahead! You do have to do a bit of research beforehand and find the right person for the job, though. Sadly, anyone can claim to be a salsa (or gafiera, forro, tango etc) teacher, or that they are "teaching" salsa.... To balance things up, I must add that most of the teachers I learned a certain social dance (not salsa) from were professional performing dancers with a solid dance background - meaning who have trained in dance between the age of 9 to 18 - quite few of them have actually gone to ballet school in their native countries. They understand about what it means (and its implications) to be filmed or photographed, and would never allow anyone to film or photograph their students in class without their consent. And they would not dream of calling those who would not want to be filmed or photographed "not serious" dancers.

I guess I have been very lucky with my ballet teachers, drdance. Picturesinthefirelight, well done for standing up for your ds.!

drdance,, I do agree with you that the ballet classes have the same structure and seems to be doing repetitive exercises - in a sense that there are only certain numbers of pas in ballet. But what I wanted to say was that there is an established way of learning which makes them not repetitive mentally. Probably that did not come across well in my previous comment. In my experience ballet (or any musical instruments) is taught (or guided) in such a way for a student to focus on sort of broken-down bits tasks for each practice session. For example when we were learning pirouette, we don't just start practicing single pirouette mindlessly for 100 times. First we may practice releve passe without turning for 5 times each leg. Then in the next class we may focus on , spotting, turning with both feet on the ground. And we don't just practice pirouette for full 90 or 60 min in a class. If it is learning how to play musical instruments, we don't just start practicing Beethoven's "Appassionata" Sonata for 1000 hours by just playing it (and God forbid from just copying by ear, listening to a CD of professional pianist and not reading music yourself!) again and again from the beginning - not that one could do it particularly if one comes to playing piano for the first time - and expect to be able to play it. In reality the task is broken down to quite a bits of process. Besides, if you are taking a proper piano lesson, this Sonata would not only be the one you have to work on in the given week. It is normal to work on about 4 different types of music (including scales) in a given week for the next lesson. As a result, I think we learn - albeit unconsciously - how to vary each time we practice something, so that it is not an exact repetition of your first attempt . And I think acquiring this skill set results in the tendency that those children who seriously study ballet or classical music do also well in academic subjects. For ballet, as I was taught in non-syllabus method so that might have made a slight difference, particularly for the use of different music. And I never did a set barre.

Interesting article, I enjoyed reading it, thank you for the link. I think this is already done in ballet training for years...for that matter, other discipline (eg playing musical instruments). Even where one practices everyday, focus is on different aspect in each class. And the class cover so many things... There are so many things to learn in ballet it is never short of variety! But it is nice to see that what has been done for years are actually proven effective - it is not the case of just blindly repeating what has been done in the past.

I am sure he meant his family "estate" - either that or from his wife's. edited to say:- perhaps Cliveden can be considered "local" for London?

I agree with the comments above, totally. Must say I giggled a bit as I remembered my childhood ballet teachers told us off for not being "serious enough" if we could not pick up the given enchainements after about 2 marks ( x each side, as we were still beginners). And my class (sort of Russian) were considered pretty relaxed one. Not those elite classes. Of course in an adult ballet class setting, I guess the approach can be a bit more relaxed....

Regarding develpment of musicality when dancing, one of my Cuban trained teacher said an interesting thing. At that time, she was teaching beginners' level open class (in reality beginners plus level). When doing adagio, she would often explain to the class that she would only mark once or twice when setting the enchainement and did not dance with the class, as 1) all the components in that adagio were already taught separatly, and 2) this is to pracitice develping one's own musicality - how one connect each steps to the music in the way one hears. She would also tell us that always depending on teachers to show the set enchainements dancing full-out (while one is dancing, or even as a demo) is detrimental to one's learning ballet - from early on, one needs to practice how to hear the music and how to acually dance (i.e. how to put together correctly the steps already learned to the given music and making it a "dance' - to sing with one's body, she would say.). Interestingly, she would dance full out when we were doing technical exersice, such as going across the floor with just sissone ferme, pas de chat, just plain chaine, or plain en boite. This was an ah-ha! moment for me. Although I never questioned this, I think all ballet teachers teach on this principle - though noone say it. The teachers will show full out the technical aspect, namely how to execute each steps, but unless it is beginners' class, they would not demonstrate enchaiments full out. This is why, in an open class setting - elementary level upwards - teachers will just mark (in more advanced levels, they will just sing out the enchainement by words only with occational mark) when they set the enchainements for centre work - assuming that basics of how each steps works are already mastered at the beginners' (and beginner's plus) level. It is acutally the same in playing instruments - as one progress to a competent beginner, teachers don't play full-out (may be a just difficult passage or two, but never more than 4bars). May be this was why I didn't question ballet teachers just marking the enchainement. touche... Yes, of course. Do every school teach basic musical theory nowadays, I wonder?

Given that nearly every occupation is now described as `profession`, I would have thought the term 'vocation' might regain its original meaning very soon...

There is a CD player with speed control... the key will move but you can either speed it up or down! Joking aside, when I do it I just count out/sing/play the music in my head in slower version.

I can understand that when concentrating on learning a good technique, one could be dancing a bit "flat" i.e. just keeping the count on the dead beat. But if someone gets behind the music, doesn't that mean that particular bits require a bit of practice? When that happens in piano playing, my teacher would make me practice the peice (or that particular bits) very slowly (slower than I was comfortably playing at that time) first, then gradually increase the speed until I can keep up with the required timing. I would do that with my ballet, as well.

Fiz, musical timing would be the first thing to learn, isn't it... Do you remember how your teacher explained the vaules of various notes? Since I started this thread, I have spoken to my mother (who was my first piano teacher) and have been trying to remembered how I learned note values. It was very very at the beginning of my piano lessons that I learned notes values as well as notes names (as in a, b, c...or do-re- mi etc). An apple was the whole note, then half an apple was half note...down to eighth note at that point (I have just turned 3) - as I would imagine it would have been very difficult for me (or even for my mother) to draw a sixteenth note or tripletts Why an apple, I don't know.... it could have been a pizza or a chocolate cake, I guess!

And here is one example of how someone with extraordinary musicality would move "with" the music. No, not a ballet dancer (in order to avoid heated discussion that may take us away from the topic ) but a figure skater - Daisuke Takahashi. His musicality is, IMHO extraordinary even among the top class figure skaters. He had neither musical training nor no ballet training at all.... yes, some people are just born with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yv5SRgU2uk

A lot of fascinating thoughts on musicality! As a lot of people commented above, one need to dance "with" the music. If you move only after you hear that certain note, then your movement is already too late. Being able to "anticipate" the flow of the music (and the choreography) is essential. I thought I would list some of the elements which I think is prerequisites for dancing with musicality. Someone who is " just born with it" is doing these things without consciously thinking about them. basic understanding of musical structure - for example, that most classical and pop music (4/4 or 3/4) will have 4 beats in a bar, and most often 4 bars can be considered one unit - though a phrasing could be 8 bars, and that most basic "chank" is 16 bars etc. Music is very logical. Once you understand this logic , it allows you to know, even without actually knowing the particular music that is being played , where certain cycle of movements, mood, or dynamics is likely to end, and where the new motif is likely to be intruduced. (Also this helps with picking up choreography so much easier.) relating to the above point, listenning to a wide style of music and recognise the characteristics of these styles. Even within classical music there are many styles (baroque, romantic, impressionists, etc), so for ballet I would start experimenting with clasical music. Then there are many styles in jazz (blues, abstruct, charlston swing, funk, bossa nova, fusion..), latin (rumba, chacha, mambo, samba choro, tango...) or rock (blues, shuffle, ballads, folky...). Then again, one can pick up the charactoristics of music (without necessarily knowing that particular music) and know where the accents tend to come, or how the melody line (or counter melody) is likely to develop and end. that one could hear different "voices" and recognise each of them. It is rare that music is solely composed of single notes throughout (even then there are other "contra-melodies going on, in theory). For dancers, it is more useful to be able to listen to music polyphonicly. When dancing, one does not always dance the melodic line, but also contra-melody and other voices. More often, upperbody may be "playing" melodic line and lowerbody may be "playing" basic beats. In PDD, man and woman may have emphasising different voices (melody and countermelody, for instance). I think listening to Prokofiev's "Perter and the Wolf" is a very good introduction to this aspect of listening. I think dancers with good musicality are the ones who have a very good over-all image of the music and dance while they are dancing. One needs to know, instinctively (or trainied to be able to know it instinctively), where one is going all the time, as it were. After all, dancing is to play music, with their bodies. I sometimes watch video of very musical dancers (not just ballet) without the music (mute!), and I can actually hear the music ! The above list is just a few points that came to my mind now, and I am sure there are a lots more. Also, I am very much interested in the views of those who studied ballet before music (or at the same time) - as I came to music much before I came to ballet, I think I see and think more like a musician!

Pups_mum, I think your younger DS will probablly be just as musical in a few years... I have seen plenty of young people who were not excessivly musical and then suddenly blossom a year or so later.

I think this is an excellent way to develop one's musicality! Reminded me the way we used to "play" with piano, taking a nursery rhyme and playing it in differnt way - a la jazz, a la latin, a la concerto (here you can then go further by a la composer of your choice (Bach, Tchaikovsky, John Cage... etc)). This was a good game because it also encouraged to capture the essence of differnt style of music. Obviously, in an ideal world, everyone who study ballet should also learn how to play a musical instrument, and learn the basic music theory. But obviously this does presents a slight problem of having to develop basic skills specific to playing the chosen instrument before one can get on to any training for musicality... on top of ballet. I find singing out aloud a rythme or melody also helps a lot, at least in understanding the accent or phrasing, but again, some people would put off by having to sing, I guess.

For the last few years I have been fascinated by this question: how does one learn/develop musicality when dancing ballet. I am of the opinion that it can be learned to a certain degree. For instance, most anyone should at least be able to learn to keep one's tempo, rhythm, and have some feel for the phrasing (even if it is the first time you heard that music) , or to know where to start dancing (eg centre exercise) ). However after that initial "musical skills" are mastered is where the real issue of musicality comes into play. IMHO, that is where individuality - or shall we say musical talent one is born with - matters more than training. Some professional dancers are naturally more musical than others. But what makes them differnt from the others, and could some of that be learned or developed? I do have some thoughts, but then I was musically trained, so I am not greatly aware of initial learning process since that was when I was very young (we just do it...). Also dancers way of discussing musicality is somewhat different from that of musicians. Musicality, I think, is a more relevant question for non-professional dancers, for this is somewhere one could develop even one's phyisical ability is limited. Of course, technique is always necessary to be able to express one's musicality, but for instance you don't have to have your leg by your ear to be dancing musically. However, there does not seems to be much guidance given other than "listen to the music", generally. Most of my teachers do explain about phrasing etc, but I get the feeling that those are not necessarily being picked up by the class, most likely because they are focused on other issues, plus perhaps due to the lack of exposure to music. However, my class experience is limited to non-syllabus class, so many be things are different with for example RAD. Any thoughts welcome...

Well, mobile phones. Occationally someone forgets to set it to a silent mode, and that's ok. Problem is when someone runs to her/his phone AND answers the phone in the middle of the class. And In the studio! (and clearly it wasn't an emergency...). I can't think why anyone can refrain from taking a call for just 90 minutes. OK, there are rare occasions when such calls must be taken but at least one could quietly excuse one's self. outside the studio....Those who do take phone (and luckily, I have only seen 3 cases over more than a decade) are never doctors on call...

Well, that thread is more for those things all beginners' of ballet should have been told. For example if one cannot pick up enchainement quickly, then one should not place one's self in the front row for the centre exercise. This thread is intended for more for things one should be expected to apply common sense - like switching off your mobile phone (or keep it in silent mode) during your class. I am linking the Audience Behaviour link here: http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/1654-audience-behaviour/page-1

There is a very amusing and long running thread about Audience Behaviour in this Forum. I thought we could do with the adult ballet open-class version as well - the behaviour that anyone over 25 and with sound mind should have known, even without any previous ballet experience. Recently (but unfortunatly not the first time) I saw someone who just walked into a studio and started to stretch in that studio, even though another ballet class was going on (she was coimg to the next class - oh, by the way, she was not a total beginner). One of the stuff at the Studio just happened to pass by, and told her to keep out of the studio while class is going on. This girl protested "why, what is wrong with this! I am not in anyone's way!". Luckily the Studio had a written policy of not allowing anyone to watch a class "inside" the studio unless a permission was given by the instructor of that particular class beforehand. So, the policy was pointed out, and she got out of the studio (however not without some protest. She dared to challenge the Studio stuff "but that teacher didn't say anything! If I was doing somethhing wrong, she would tell me!"). But then, I thought it just was a common sense, noone above the age of 18 should have to be told... And this woman looked she was at least around 27. Unfortunately we seems to live in the world when one askes for a common courtesy, one gets accused of "snobbish' "elitest" or '"cliquey".... But some of the behaviour are just rude, and IMHO, particularly if one is coming to a ballet class billed above "general" level, it is a disrespect in itself to make ballet teacher point out that sort of common sense level faux pas. Well, my rant over. What is yours? That mobile phone beeping as you attempt some fondu???

I hear that the prize winners' performance is now on YouTube.

I think putting adverts for workshops and summer schools and such like in a separate section is a really good idea. I have noticed lately of those posts (some are even posted by someone who is probably pretending to be one of the mothers (or being given some sort of incentives), and they do clutter "Doing Dance" section. For example, a relentless self-advertising for one's own blog in this forum is felt that it was not something that goes with the sprit of this forum, and an apprepriate measure to prevent this was put into in place and now operating. I cannot help feeling that advertisments of the kinds Katymac is mentioning should be better received if they were in a separate section from "Doing Dance". mimi66

My gosh! Don't people sing at home with their parents any more??? I guess time is ripe for develping some educational Karaoke...