mimi66

Hi, Moomin. Reading your post and those from others (Chinafish, miss_poine to name a few), it is assuring to know that a lot of people would like teachers to take charge and actively manage the class. I hope this might give ballet teachers more moral support and understanding. I say this because I know a few occasions where a student complained about a teacher for “upsetting” them, just because that person was asked to move back to give a bit more space for the others during the class (thus in front of everyone). I know these are rather extreme examples, but I am sure these are not very pleasant incidents for the teacher who was simply doing her/his job! miss_pointe’s point (pan not intended) is worth exploring a bit deeper, I think. There are certain differences between teaching children and adults, but how much of it should be taken into account? For one thing, adult students tend to have far more emotional issues (and pride) than children, which are sometimes brought into the classroom. Leave your baggage outside the classroom, I say. But that does not always happen. Speaking of teacher's authority issue, there is another etiquette faux pas that Chinafish mentioned. Those who teach other students during the class. Or those who ask others during the class to coach them... Luckily I have never been the receiving end of unsolicited correction. Poor Chinafish it must be have been irritating! I get annoyed with people who teach (or ask questeions to) other students during the class. In my experience, this tends to take place when the teacher giving correction to one particular person. Well, that correction is actually addressed to everyone, and I am trying to concentrate on these corrections and do not want to be distracted. I wonder if people are doing this under the banner of "mutually supportive" class. Well, one teacher in the room is quite enough, I think.

PetrovaFossile, Intereresting points, these group dynamics. I would like hear more from you on this. In a way, I think these group dynamics issues are probably more relevant to adult ballet class because in some classes people keep going to the same class (or at least the same teacher) for a long time, 10 or 20 years are not uncommon, even for those who started ballet as an adult. This doesn’t happen with children’s class. I am sure everyone comes to ballet class to have a breathing space from those corporate politics and/or family power struggles etc, yet I am always impressed in equal measures how some people can’t help playing politics a la Catharina Di Medici wherever they go - it's their talent! It is easy to say that teacher should manage the class, but what would one do in practice when faced with those who disregard teachers’ instruction? Not something grave nor from malice, but from the fear of (imagined) loss of face? For example, say the teacher assigns people to say small group of 3. There are always about 3¬4 of them who regularly ignore this and go with whichever group they fancy (no doubt they think that makes them look better. To whom, I don’t know). We are not children, so we won’t get reprimanded for small things like that. The result is that teacher gives up assigning places, because it is a waste of everyone’s time. This is not a beginners’ class, and those who do whatever they like tends to not to be the newbies but the regulars, and more often than not, those old enough to know better. As you have mentioned, I think in most part people respect each other in open classes. But it is also true that at least to me people have become a bit less considerate in their behaviour in comparison to when I started ballet well over 10 years ago. It may just be my impression, though. I am hoping that discussions in places like this thread might get people to become a bit more aware of ballet class protocols, and perhaps the consequence of not respecting them. Editied because I misspelled petrovaFossile's name!!!!

Michelle, re Pinaepple. It has been quite a while since I last went to Pineapple elementary class, but Maggie and Ian I think are great teachers. They teach A LOT considering the size and wide range of the abilities of the participants. I really learned a lot from their corrections. You are right about “you need to know what you are doing” in that class in terms of most of the pas, ability to pick up enchenaiments and know how to phrase that with the given music to a reasonable standard, ability to control your body and reasonable spatial awareness. And classroom etiquette, of course. Also at this level one should be able to have a good guess as to how much others in the class can dance by the way they carry themselves (not how skinny they are or how high their leg go up, by the way). In any case after the barre you will have a general idea anyway. After all the class is billed as “elementary”, equivalent level for the vocational exam which used to be called “Elementary” (now it is called intermediate, I think). Please feel free to correct me those who are more familiar with this matter, as I am not 100% sure, but my understanding is that the class is really aimed at those who have mastered skills equivalent for example to (old) RAD grade 5 at least. Anyway, I am not sure if I fully understand bits about your “short term memory” and “long term memory”etc. However, I do think there is a reason why we do “throw away” (as in used only once) enchainements in the class. Learning enchainement is a mean of learning to dance, and not the goal. As a beginner it is useful to learn how to remember it, and writing them down or trying to remember them after the class is a great exercise. But it is not the ultimate goal in ballet classes to “learn by rota”, and one should keep this in mind, I think. It is like when you are learning a foreign language: you learn and build up your vocabulary (pas in ballet), then you learn some sample sentences (enchainement) so that you can put the words you know together to make a sentence. If your goal for learning say French is to be able to have reasonable conversation with others, remembering those sample sentences are no good if you can’t then apply them. You want to be able to speak your thoughts and feelings – if you only ever repeat those sample sentences you will never achieve that. But then, if you didn’t bother learning those sample sentences to begin with, you will never be able to speak French, either. As Chinafish wrote, there will come a stage when it is counter-productive for you to “commit long term memory” some enchainements. The danger of this is one would only ever do that enchainement the same way, tempo, dynamics, mood, regardless the music, and worst, only in that particular sequence of the moves. But at your current stage of journey I think it is a good thing to learn enchainement the way you are doing now. No doubt this is why Maggie is helping you out. As to the last question, I go to all my ballet classes to learn ballet, not to play a ballerina that I am not. And I really enjoy that.

Hello Michelle, I am going to break up my comment in two posts. First, Re ENB. This is a nice way to explain the use of the mirror, and nice way to introduce the concept that one must be aware of other dancers and the group as a whole. I like it! It might not have come across very clearly, but when I said the competent ones should go in the front row, it was so that the appropriate spacing for everyone can be established, and that the front row people can set for the class the energy, dynamics and tone of that particular enchainement, how it should be phrased. This way, those who are less competent are supported and nurtured, and learn much faster. Also it is safer and easier for anyone to concentrate on what they are doing with an appropriate spacing. If one needs to “copy” someone else in front of her/him most of the time, and “copying” for the sequence of the steps, in my opinion taking that class does not do much for one’s leaning. (Of course it’s a different story for beginners’ class). As for looking at oneself in the mirror, one should not have to be in the front row to do so. We space ourselves so that no one stands directly behind someone else, but slightly move sideways (NOT forward) so that 2nd and 3rd row can see themselves in the mirror. This is anoter reason that the front row people must be competent enough to arrange themselves so that the entire class can establish apprpriate spacing. If the first row people stand too close to each other, the 3rd row people would not have their "windows". I don't think it's possible to give that window to the 4th row, though. I think it is a very good idea to swap the rows so everyone gets to practice how to be in the front row. I wish beginners’ class do this more, so that by the time they come to General or elementary open class they are no longer self-conscious. In my experience, however, this swapping the row tends not to be so effective. There are always someone who prefers not be in the front row, for whatever reasons, and in an open class setting, one cannot force them to. Personally I think one ought to do what they are asked to do by the teachers during the class, but we all try to be kind.

Hello miss. point. I agree with you totally. In a way it is sad that now everything must be spelled out, which was not necessary for adult classes. And when even the obvious must be spelled out, it creates a tendency of “do what you like until you are told off”. Must be a lot of adjustment for the teachers of adult open classes, I would imagine. Thank you for your warm welcome .

Hello, Chinafish. Your pet hate also happens a lot, I know. And then even after the teacher asks to stand in the front line, some people are still reluctant. I wish we could just get on with it so that we can perhaps have time to do that adagio once more… A variation of that one is people not moving forward when asked to swap the rows. So, when the 3rd row people were asked to become the front row, they stay put in the orininal 3rd row position, leaving no space for other to dance in the back...

Anjuli, I am so pleased to hear this. yes, certainly I am waiting! Often I feel I just need to focus my own dancing and not worry about what others do. Of course that`s the best solution but it can be trying when that same person moving up ,from behind and nearly hitting me with her/his arms...again! Your post made me feel a lot better! thank you.

Please don’t get me wrong, I love watching “Strictly”. Anyway, perhaps it might be worthwhile to list those floor etiquette with some examples, and reasons behind that particular etiquette. I shall start with one of the most misunderstood one: the front row is for those who are competent enough to be dancing there. I know it sounds snobbish, but really it is not. The front row people have a responsibility – they must be able to judge the spacing for the entire class. This involves being able to pick up given enchainements quickly and accurately, of course, but also being musical as well. This is particularly the case for those who stand at the middle and both end of the front row. It is not any form of elitism. When competent people are in the front row, the whole class dances better, including the spacing. It used to be that people were reluctant to dance in the front row, even in the elementary level open classes. Now it seems that more people want to place themselves at the front…particularly at either ends of the front row, even though they should let someone more suitable take that position. Wanting to dance in the front row regardless of one’s present ability is no longer a sign of enthusiasm once one progressed to the elementary level (I guess now one would refer this as an intermediate level????). And if one stand in the front at the beginning of the centre work, one should stay there throughout the class. Before the first adagio begins, everyone has a chance to make sure they have enough space around them so that they don’t kick nor punch others in front, side, and back. If someone moves in the middle of the centre work, everyone else has to adjust their space again and that isn’t fair! One of my pet hate is those people who move up closer to the mirror (i.e. the front row), pushing everythig in her/his path to the moment of glory, when they think they can dance that particular exercise, then move to the back to hide behind others when it’s something they think they can’t do well… Sad to say that I have seen this done by someone who ought to know better...someone who were studying for certificate for teaching ballet...actually not just one, but more than three. I have also seen this from someone who went (and finished) certain vocational dance school( who does a lot of ballet training as well (sigh).

oh, it's "shame" not "same" . Sorry , I still haven't learn how to edit my posts!

My reaction to Dance-Passion's example would be the 1st one on Anjuli's example. I think it's becasue I learned ballet terms in French. When I was young, even not-so-serious ballet classes used French terms. (But don't ask about the accecnt... ) Dance-Passion's example illustrates well the downside of translating French ballet terms into English. French is a bit more precise language than English, and I always thought it is a same now using French terms are not in vouge in ballet teaching. Having lived in many countries and attended ballet classes, it is actually great when you know the French terms. Accent apart, you can understand what's going on in a class anywhere in the world. Personally I feel it is more important for the younger people to learn French terms. It would help them to widen their options and opportunities beyond English speaking countries...

Balleteacher, I could not agree more with you. thank you! In our era of instant everything, people seem to expect instant results even in learning ballet. I feel also that this is general lack of respect for the teachers, may be because some people think ballet is something one can learn instantly. TV programmes like "Strictly Come Dancing" doesn't help either. They make some people to misunderstand tht dancing (and performing in front of the audience) is something one can do with only a few weeks of training, or at the most a few years of training. I wish there were more acceptance for everyone that althogh we are all equals, but we are different in our abilities at a particluar moment, and that that in itself is not anything to be ashamed of.

Oh, she sounds lovely!

Moomin, thank you for your comment. I do agree with you, too. Ultimately it's the teachers who should be managing the behaviour. On the other hand, it gets a bit impractical in a class of 30 people upwardsk, I think. I myself always thought whoever participates an adult open class (except for beginners) would have known these etiquettes. But disheartning to say that sometimes a big breakers of those rules are those who has been to ballet school and really should have know better...(sigh).

Thank you. this is a really nice forum...

Hello, Anjuli. I am a fan of you! Thank you for the comment. I could not agree more. In reality, though, I think there is a mismatch between the general expectation of how adult dancers should behave in open classes (exculding beginners class) and the acutual behaviour and/or knowledge of some of the adult dancers there. I shall expand on this perhaps later, but for now suffice to say that more people take up dancing as hobby (which is good) , what one could reasonably expected from participants of an open class can no longer be expected (which is bad). I have noticed that now big studios like Pineapple, some classes stipulates that those who does not have the knowledge of class protocoles should not attend. Also some classes now ask people who are not suitable for that class (technically) . This was unthinkable, say, 5 years ago, but now sadly necessary for safety reasons. I think the participants of open classes should be more aware of these protocoles. I don't think it's fair to put all responsibilities to the teachers only.

Fiz, thank you for the reply. I do sometimes see people insisting on not forming the triangle, but instead foring a line across. very dangerous, and this type of people tends to join in at the last minutes, so does not give time for others to move to get enough space...,

wow! how exciting to see replys already coming in! Thank you. Fiz Sounds like my dream class! Could I ask how does your teacher form the small group? For instance group of 3, a triangle with one person in the front, and for 5, like the dice (a squar with a dot in the middle). The class I regularly go to has a local rule on group of 3. We have 2 people in front with one person at the back. This is not particularly ideal (doesn't give enough space for everyone to manoeuver) but since a lot of people tend to hesitate going in the front alone, this has become the rule for this class. My teacher tries from time to time to put us into more conventional shape but it just doesn't work. Also this is a general + class so I do understand that it's not really appropriate to place people at the begining of each group at this level... Spannerandpony, Hello and thank you LinMM It' great that you are doing the syllabus class. I think my technique suffered from not doing the syllabus work, but I could only fit non-syllabus class when I started... I had fun but learn-as-you-go meathod is not recomennded, in an ideal world. Well all my classes are in London, and yes, it gets chaotic sometimes, even though the classes aren't that huge (as in Pineapple elementary classes, for instance). >>>BUT then there are those who insist in going in EVERY group!! I know exactly what you mean, I have seen them, too. Going in every group is OK so long as one is giving the priority (for the space) to those who do it for the first time, I think, but I assme the one you are reffering to always stands right in front of the group!! In any case, in a crowded studio it's often impossible to repeat the exercise without evading someone else's space, so best to be graceful and let everyone has their fair share.

Hi, I am a newbie for this forum, but decided to be a bit brave and post a new topic in this thread. I started ballet as an adult (though I did a couple of years of ballet (not very serious) as a child), and like many adults, learned to dance in open classes. Having been dancing over 10 years, it seems to me that I encounter more and more people in the class who are perhaps not aware of various practical ballet conventions which make up what may be called "class room etiquette". I feel that this is because teaching those "etiquettes" is not considered something a ballet teacher has to worry about in an open class setting. It is true that for adults some of them are really just common sense. And, yes, ultimately it is up to the teacher to manage his/her class. But as the number of ballet lovers who learned ballet in non- syllabus setting/open classes increases, sadly such ignorance (or forgetfulness?) are becoming positively dangerous! I have seen situations like people overtaking others in front during the grand allegro, people constantly encroaching into other peoples space (when there are plenty of room in the opposite sides for them to move). Or those who wear rings (v.chanky, too) or bangles (watches, too) to the class who inevitably dance too close behind you.... I have looked up about this subject, but didn't find one specifically for the centre work. I thought it would be useful to hear from people those conventional classroom etiquette, as I for one would like to know for example the most conventional way to form a small group (as in the shape) of 3, 5, 7 across the floor etc. I understand that these sometimes have to be adopted, and that one should respect the "local" rules of each class. And that the ballet teacher who is teaching that class has the last word in that class. But it would be nice to know the basic rules. Any thoughts welcome, mimi66