mimi66

I started Nureyev's biography by Julie Kavanagh. This will take a bit of time, because I decided to search and watch on YouTube his performance (or the same work danced by other dancers) or ballet he directed as I read along the book. Sort of self-arranged interactive reading? well, it's very enjoyable! ...edited, because my keyboard seems to have its own mind...

No, Michelle. Just for the record, it was way before you started dancing. Do you see yourself in this description? Well, there are a few individuals like that in any given general upwards class - a lot of people who have been going to open-class (above elementary level) for a while can easily come up with several examples!

Oh, I agree with you, LinMM. I just remembered - one of the classes I used to go to. It was an intermediate level (as in after elementary level) class. At times when there were too many people (new faces, of course) who are not ready for this class, the class just morphed into near advance level.... Well, guess what happened after a few weeks of morphed classes. We lost most new people who were actually ready for the class (at normal level) - though it would be rather challenging for a few months -, and some of those who were not ready (by miles) decided they really liked the class and stayed on... thought (luckily) their attendance tended to be erratic after the initial enthusiasim waned....

Apart from some adults not wanting to be told what they cannot do by others, it is also because the way most adult start learning ballet is organised quite differently from that of those children new to ballet. For adult open class learners, more often than not, it simply means just turning up to a totally different class if they want to move up to higher level class - may be a different studio, most often different teachers. I am limiting my comments on adult beginners moving up to elementary level class, as it is where the self-promotion mostly raises issue aileen illustrates above. Normally by the time people truly progressed to elementary level, they should be able to assess their own ability better so less problem there and beyond. (Though there is always at least one or two odd people who....) In my case, I was lucky as my beginners'+ class teacher also taught general level class (at the time more geared towards at elementary level), so I had a chat with my beginners+ class teacher and on her recommendation started to gradually move up - about a year I did 2 beginners+ class and one general, then after that 2 general class with 1 beginners+, then finally I was taking 3 general level class. I think transition between beginners+ class to elementary level class is quite a huge and difficult leap - the easiest (and the safest) way to handle it is if the steps are taken gradually. Problem is that often adult learners do not have a stream-lined guidance - the next level class one wants to attend is more likely to be taught by another teacher, in another studio. If one can only fit in ballet classes on certain days of the week, then it may be necessary to just change the class one goes to, very abruptly. Perhaps one might become a bit reluctant to speak to one's beginner's class teacher that you were thinking of trying out beginners+ class, as that means one would no longer be taking that teachers class, wrongly assuming that might hurt the teacher's feelings. Then there is another problem. Those who are new to ballet tend not to realise how long it takes to master the basics vocabs for ballet - unless they have some experience for other classical discipline such as classical music to a fairly competent level (eg more than just a few years experience). For most adults beginners, if one did ballet once a week "for a while", they generally think they should be able to call themselves "intermediate" ballet dancers. They are not wrong to have that sort of expectation, because other more social dances such as Salsa, that's how people would divide the class levels. So after only 6 months to a year, some people feel that they ought be seen dancing in an "intermediate" class rather than staying in a "beginners'" class. But ballet (or other classical discipline) does not quite work like that. It takes a whole lot longer - and one cannot hurry the process by overkill either. Over and above 2 classes a week, intensity of one's training (as in how many classes one takes in a week) does not make that much difference to most adult beginner learners (particularly adults over 30s) and could even be harmful and counterproductive to one's progress. Ballet teachers I do not think tend to tell their beginner students how long it takes to progress beyond beginners level in ballet (actually, in any dance!). Well, they don't normally have time to do those lectures, and I suspect that the fact ballet is not easy (certainly not "instant") is so obvious to ballet teachers that they probably are not aware that it needs to be explained to some eager adult learners. Also it is natural that ballet teachers do not want to discourage people starting ballet, by first telling them they need to be patient to see the progress... people nowadays can be so quick to attack someone for being "snob" or "elitist" if someone told them something they do not want to hear on subjects they don't know well (...but think they do..). Yes, as an adult, we should all use common sense and should not be self-promoting oneself to a "more difficult" class... and most people actually do use their common sense. But some of the things needs to be taught - after all, one needs to know enough to know one's ignorance, and how would one do that if one is new to ballet?

If the repertoire is not being danced en pointe then it is 'watered down' IMO. LinMM, I don't think aileen has any issue with simplified version of a variation nor saying that dancing "wartered down" version is easy... I think she is just pointing out that if one feels fit to call a simplified version of a variation a "wartered down version", then surely "making due allowances for the physical (and technical, shall we add?) limitations" of a certain dancer also equates to "watered down version" of a certain variation. Edited to say, sorry I don't understand how multi-quote work yet!

Oh, LinMM, I hope you can find a good floor barre class near by. Can you point your foot without any pain? (though I think you can keep that foot flexed if it hurts pointed). I am thinking about getting a few semi-private sessions... they really work!

... but then of course, Polina Smionova or La Scala may have thought that some of their audience may find it a bit distasteful for her to be seen to be selling (non-luxury) vests, hence no broadcasting in Europe? That reminded me of Sylvie Guillem's ad for Rolex - I used admire her feet in that photo of her in 6 o'clock position.

Uniqulo's tv ad campaign in Japan, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZlbdCszO4 I wish they aired it here in the UK as well - do they do it in the US/Canada?

What worries me is this - are all these "initiatives" actually necessary, or is it something put forward by business consultants for the sake of suggesting something (so that they look as if they are doing something), and other fringe advisory professions dancing around to create or keep their jobs? NHS reforms, and rail privatisation (and what happened in the end - all loss making devisions are back in tax payers hands after all, while plenty of advisory profession made off with a lot of - and guess what - tax payers money) comes to my mind... But I think we are digressing and even hijacking zxDaveM's brilliant thread...so we really should rest our cases here. Or otherwise open another thread on this interesting (?) discussion. Back to the topic - is ballet becoming cool? I agree with you, zxDavidM, it's becoming cool, so long as it is away from the traditional tutus. I think if there were more tv ads which would feature male dancers, it would become even cooler. but that would be a bit too much to expect to car companies yet... Edited to tidy up...

For most open class,entirely self-promotion. There is no assessment in the first place before one joins. Sometimes some teachers will tell you indivdually whether you could try harder class, or you should "consider" going to more basic class, but the decision is up to the indivdual. However, if a particular open class has substantial core regulars, then quite often the level of the class moves up as they progress with time. This may happen without changing the class level names. This is why sometimes you go to beginners class and realise that everyone is working at beginners + level! Reverse is also true. I have been to a class which was billed as "advance" but because of the level of core regulars in those classes, the class was doing in reality somewhat between elementary and intermediate. Also it is very common in those classes billed as "general" to do what would be beginners+ level contents depending on how core regulars in those classes fare. However, these classes have tendency to "revert" to "advance" or "general" as billed all of the sudden, if someone who can obviously been vocatioanlly trained and dance at that level comes along! Happens a lot when vocational students dropp in when on school holiday. The above is just my personal experience. I don't know how ENB or other type of class works, so I am very interested in hearing other members' experience .

Mmmm.... personally I am not sure about product endorcement, unless it is dance related items ... I am a bit of an old school (way beyond my actual age!) but all these commercialism unrelated to acutual performance of ballet rather put me off. But then it is just me, and I fully understand that finance has to come from somewhere. It may just be inevitable in today's world where even one of the most traditional profession is expected to (with subtlety) ambulance chase. I just hope the revenue from such commercial initiatives dance companies generate more than the fees for the business consultants, accountants, legal advisors and all the rest. I do, however, like that ballet being used for tv ads - so long as the performance/stills are of high standard. Also I think Miss Rojo's use of tv ads are timed to promote the launch of "new" ENB image as well. Nivea campaign I think is also great that it will promote new generation of dancers to the public, without ENB incurring additional cost of promoting the company on its own.

Apprentice or full member, I would be thrilled to see Precious Adams in ENB's Swan Lake as one of the swans. And David Yudes in Don Q !

LinMM and Fiz, I am sorry to hear about having to keep away from your class... Wishing swift recovery for you both, xx mimi66

Here is where this year's Prix de Lausanne prize winners are going to be. http://prixdelausanne.tumblr.com/post/84920831076/schools-and-companies-chosen-by-the-prix-de-lausanne Half of the prize winners chose to come to the UK ! 2nd prize winner (Sae Maeda) will be at the RBS, 3rd (Precious Adams) will be dancing with the ENB (not sure as an apprentice or a full company member ?), then the 4th (David Fernando Navarro Yudes) with the Royal Ballet (again, not sure if this is as an apprentice or as a full company member).

munchikin16, I can't help with your query, but just wanted to say, congratulations! I am sure there are some good classes in Dublin.

just another musing. Just wondering why we don't see more of ballet TV ads is down to the quality control (of the performance) and therefore the costs? My guess - A lot of effort,thoughts and skill goes into filming dance performance, particularly taken out of the context of theatre performance, if the end product is to be of acceptable standard. I can see why professional dancers (and the ballet campanies) are bit shy of doing tv ads unless they have a considerable degree of control over the finished products.

I noticed that car companies - especially for their higher end of products - seem to like using ballet for their ads campaign, though not necessarily TV adverts. I guess in the marketing world, ballet equates exclusivity, class and quality... Darcey Bussell pirouetted a few times for the new product launch campaign for BMW, although these were not tv adverts. Interestingly, Polo (Volkswagen) chose tango - sort of modern,street tango (not ballroom) - for their TV ads. More street cred?

terpsichore, that's wonderful! I am sure, though, those 17 years olds in your class weren't giving you any pityful or scornfull looks. They must have been impressed with your sheer determination. Back to the topic... since it is in Heaven, I am sure Anjuli will allow me to have multiple clone self of me. I would love to do a Napolitan dance from the Swan Lake, with all dancers being myself.

Your post made me smile, terpsichore... very romantic - as in evocative of 19th century yearnings (though your story takes place in early 20 century). By the way, I have noticed that you have often mentioned that ballet does not come easily to you... Apart from the fac t(?) that one does not have to worry about it in Heaven, I do not think ballet comes easily to anyone (certainly not to me). If anything, the fact you feel that way I think is a sign that you are on the right path... ...to dancing Heaven.

Well said Janet! If I may add to this... For all serious and dedicated ballet dancers, regardless of their current level of development as a ballet dancer, "ballet class" holds a very special place in their hearts. It is almost a sacred place. I am afraid I shall refrain from elaborating on this further here, but let's say all serious and dedicated students of ballet understand it and agree with this. It is not so much to do with whether one participates in performance sessions - be that amateur performance (which anyone can participate without being auditioned first) or professional performance. Besides, I think a lot of forum member have already been there and done that (and got the tutus!) anyway, so it is not even an issue. It is more the fact that Michelle insulted the basis of ballet - class- that I felt I could not let that remark pass. But then, looking at Michelle's understanding of what goes on in a normal ballet class, I am beginning to think that perhaps it is just the case or pure ignorance on Michelle's part. After all, she is still new to ballet world and coming to it at a rather late stage of her life. Here I am quoting Michelle's exact words from her comment #874- "doing an enchainement for performance takes considerable more time learning and polishing through rehearsals to a far higher standard than a regular class which runs far shorter sequences only once or twice on each side. The requirement to perform as I highly synchronised group is far less intense, and your focus and dependency is now on your own performance as a regular class rather than that as a group." I do not recognise classes I go to in Michelle's above description. The classes I (and the rest of the world) attend, the requiement to perform as a highly synchronised group is the same in class - either at the barre or at the centre. In the class, we may only do an enchainement once or twice both side, but we are required to execute it to the highest standard at each attempts. In class, as in rehearsals, we do not spend ages just memorising the "routine" - we are expected to pick them up (possible because we are already fairly familiar with the components of each enchainements or that variation) when marking. So each attempt, even if it is just once or twice for that class, we aim for polished techinique and musicality, not worrying about remembering the steps. I know it does not always happen, especially when one is a beginner, still new to ballet. But at least that is what every serious and dedicated dancer aims for during the class. As I mentioned in my previous post, what one cannot do in class, one cannot do on stage (or in rehearsals). Now Michelle and I do not attend the same ballet class. But I have a sneaky suspition that even if and when we were at the same class, we would still have radically different views and understanding of that particular ballet class from each other, that I would begin to wonder if I attended the same class with Michelle. Because, it seems most likely that Michelle lives in a parallel universe....

http://www.balletcoforum.com/index.php?/topic/6430-hello-adult-newbie-here-with-questions/ here it is, The quays!

Actually, given that we are in heaven, I could have a body of a man ,too, couldn't I. So male version of my wish list will be - La Corsaire, both Conrad and Ali, with (young) Alicia Alonso.

Nikiya from La Bayadere! By the way, I think Misha is still with us?

LinMM, I sent you a PM, too. mimi66

Michelle, please quote me correctly if you must quote me. For the record, I said in my post #850:- "Personally, as an adult I would not even dream of performing in public (paying or non-paying) unless I have reached the level where I can "[execute stepwise,] perfectly a scene from one of the classics, only conveyed to you verbally be your teacher by its classical step names (quated from Michelle's above post)", which really is the ability required for advanced/ professional (what you call "your everyday recreational" ) class. " [emphasis added by mimi66]. So, academic or otherwise, are you taking back what you said about your fellow dancers who refused to be filmed by an amateur cameraperson ("not serious performing dancers"), and your dismissive comment about normal ballet class ( "your standard everyday recreational class")?