Rishi Sunak’s plans to scrap A Levels

[Kerfuffle]

I’m wondering how Rishi Sunak expects specialist vocational sixth forms to cope with his new qualification idea  (including Maths and English until 18) while also training full time in ballet and for those courses that are degrees, will he decide they are useless and get rid of them too? 

[taxi4ballet]

Well, it appears that the first students to be affected are only now starting primary school, so the likelihood is that things will change again before then.

 

 

[Pups_mum]

Yes, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.There are numerous large flaws in the idea. Never mind vocational schools, it's completely unworkable in most regular state schools. Aside from anything else, there's already a nationwide shortage of teachers and I doubt many English and Maths teachers have the capacity in their job plans to take on all these extrs classes.So I'm not sure where he thinks all these extra teachers are miraculously going to appear from.

Besides which, I wouldn't view anything that Mr Sunak and co come up with right now as anything other than ideas that they think will appeal to wavering Tory voters, and taking those lazy good for nothing young people in hand and making them study proper subjects instead of that namby pamby stuff they do now is an idea that appeals to a certain demographic I'm sure. 

We'll quite possibly have more than one change of government in the time in which this idea is mant to come to fruition so I will be surprised if it ever gets of the ground.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

I haven’t caught up with the news today on this and taking aside vocational institutions, we’ve recently encountered the challenge of being in the British educational system. My DS is intending to apply to universities both in the U.K. and overseas. We are having a hard time explaining to admissions offices in several other countries why some students here, in the two years prior to applying to universities, wouldn’t have necessarily studied English or maths or sciences. My DS is also about to sit a standardised exam for some overseas universities that assumes he would have been doing maths and English up to the point when he applies for universities. We don’t know how it’s going to pan out.  Nothing to do with vocational training and studies but I guess it’s just to present the other side of it especially for those who want to pursue higher education overseas. 

[Emeralds]

I wouldn’t worry.....Mr Sunak is, according to politics experts who have been right about his predecessors in the past, more likely to be exiting Downing Street imminently than A levels will exit the school calendar.

 

In the past, lots of ministers have spoken about killing off  A levels and adopting the Baccalaureate (International or some U.K. version) and while some schools have started to offer it as well as A level (I only know one school that offers International Baccalaureate solely- Sevenoaks) many parents, students and employers don’t like it, so A levels have stayed as a gold standard of attainment in advanced learning in this country and a number of  Commonwealth countries. The Baccalaureate has always been accepted as equivalent qualifications to A levels, Scottish Highers, along with Irish Leaving Certificate, the German Abitur, South African Matric, Australian HSC,VCE, etc etc in British universities so nothing’s changed.

 

Regarding Mr Sunak’s obsession with maths till 18, students who achieve 6-9 (B to A star) at GCSE take the Higher Tier syllabus  which is already very testing and more advanced than that at age 16 in many countries, and our A level maths is already at a level equivalent to their first year university maths courses. You shouldn’t have to force every student to do university level maths if they need to cover three other subjects more relevant to their future careers. Mr Sunak has also demonstrated that mathematical or educational  attainment in his case has not translated to efficacy or success in one’s  job......I can attest that I have agreement on the latter conclusion from people of different political leanings (left, right or middle), races and creeds.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Emeralds

[Emeralds]

45 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I haven’t caught up with the news today on this and taking aside vocational institutions, we’ve recently encountered the challenge of being in the British educational system. My DS is intending to apply to universities both in the U.K. and overseas. We are having a hard time explaining to admissions offices in several other countries why some students here, in the two years prior to applying to universities, wouldn’t have necessarily studied English or maths or sciences. My DS is also about to sit a standardised exam for some overseas universities that assumes he would have been doing maths and English up to the point when he applies for universities. We don’t know how it’s going to pan out.  Nothing to do with vocational training and studies but I guess it’s just to present the other side of it especially for those who want to pursue higher education overseas. 

If it’s the American SAT, @Neverdancedjustamum, I can reassure you that British students who have done well in GCSEs tend to do well in their SAT tests as well. A friend of mine works in the careers department of a school  and oversees applications to foreign (and British) universities for the sixth formers, and she has never had a sixth form student taking any combination of A levels who did well in GCSEs come a cropper in the SAT. In fact, a lot do better, being able to receive offers from more sought after universities in the US than in Britain, because GCSEs are such a good foundation and a testing set of exams. (European, Canadian and Australian/New Zealand universities don’t require British students to sit additional sixth form level exams, so am assuming that’s the test you mean.) The key to success is to practise a lot of past papers (you can buy books of these in the usual book retailers with the answers/solutions). So don’t worry- GCSE English and Maths are more than enough. (I also have relatives and friends who have taken it who didn’t do A level English or Maths and still attained high scores). 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Emeralds

[Kerfuffle]

Very good points made by all - I too agree that it’s highly unlikely to ever be put into practice and is in any case very impractical. @Emeralds Mr Sunak obviously hasn’t tried the higher tier of the reformed GCSE maths, you are right that it is set at a very advanced level, my son told me he saw a YouTube  of an MIT student shocked at how difficult it was! I find it ridiculous that those pursuing arts qualifications are assumed not to be well qualified in maths or English. I think the highest grades (7-9)  in  English Language are also pretty difficult to get too. 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

14 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

If it’s the American SAT, @Neverdancedjustamum, I can reassure you that British students who have done well in GCSEs tend to do well in their SAT tests as well. A friend of mine works in the careers department of a school  and oversees applications to foreign (and British) universities for the sixth formers, and she has never had a sixth form student taking any combination of A levels who did well in GCSEs come a cropper in the SAT. In fact, a lot do better, being able to receive offer from more sought after universities in the US than in Britain, because GCSEs are such a good foundation and testing set of exams. (European, Canadian and Australian/New Zealand universities don’t require British students to sit additional secondary level exams, so am assuming that’s the test you mean.) The key to success is to practise a lot of past papers (you can buy books of these in the usual book retailers with the answers/solutions). So don’t worry- GCSE English and Maths is enough. (I also have relatives and friends who have taken it who didn’t do A level English or Maths and still attained high scores). 

 

 

That’s such a relief @Emeralds, it is indeed the SAT. I bought him a few books from Amazon, it’s the same way I prepared for it many years ago (I also didn’t come from the British or American educational system).  

[Emeralds]

He’s on the right track, @Neverdancedjustamum! Best of luck to him! It’s just practice, practice and practice - you know this of course, and the solutions at the back are a great help. And a lot of it is also down to technique (eg timing, not dwelling on one question that is tricky for too long). I am sure he’ll do well, especially with support from a wise mum ! 👍

[Ondine]

If I'd had to carry on with maths to 18 I'd have locked myself in the school lavs and refused to come out.

 

(I bet other transport projects 'in the north' don't happen either. But that's another issue entirely.)

 

 

Edited October 4, 2023 by Ondine

[Pups_mum]

36 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

students who achieve 6-9 (B to A star) at GCSE take the Higher Tier syllabus  which is already very testing and more advanced than that at age 16 in many countries, and our A level maths is already at a level equivalent to their first year university maths courses. You shouldn’t have to force every student to do university level maths if they need to cover three other subjects

This of course is one of the major flaws with the idea. A level maths is hard even for those who have done well at GCSE and want to do it, so it would be ridiculous to attempt to make everyone do it. But there will still be people who want/need to study maths to that level so an A level equivalent will still be needed - unless a lot of undergraduate STEM courses are also to be completely redesigned as well that is. So there would need to be at least  2 courses for 16-18 year olds which would be a massive increase in workload for teachers in a subject that is already a shortage specialty. Same is probably true of English. There is a reasonable argument that some pupils  going down science related routes but not taking A level maths would benefit from doing extra maths, but guess what, that already exists, in the form of Core Maths! No need to reinvent the wheel.

We have an issue with numeracy and literacy in this country for sure, but making those who are struggling continue to study those subjects for longer is not the way to fix it. Do more of the same and you'll get more of the same. Any changes to the teaching of those subjects need to be made a long way before 16, probably before 11.

But I will get off my soapbox as it's nothing to do with ballet. I don't think vocational school sixth formers need to worry about compulsory maths and english being added to their workload any time in the foreseeable future though.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

20 minutes ago, Emeralds said:

He’s on the right track, @Neverdancedjustamum! Best of luck to him! It’s just practice, practice and practice - you know this of course, and the solutions at the back are a great help. And a lot of it is also down to technique (eg timing, not dwelling on one question that is tricky for too long). I am sure he’ll do well, especially with support from a wise mum ! 👍

Ah thank you @Emeralds, that’s very kind of you. Unfortunately for my DCs, I’m not very patient when it comes to academics or exams.  Terrible, I know. I can just be their emotional support and hype mum (and financier of books) 😂 

[Kerfuffle]

There is also the argument that the arts subjects will be in greater demand than ever once AI takes over. I’m pleased to see Keir Starmer promoting creative subjects up to GCSE. He attended the junior department at Guildhall. 

[Emeralds]

I think it is right for universities and sixth forms to ask for a minimum of a GCSE grade 4 (which is a C) in English Language and Maths. But students are allowed to resit English and Maths during sixth form while doing BTech, T level or A level studies if they didn’t achieve it, instead of spending the whole year just preparing to resit English or Maths or both. The grade 4 will ensure that the essentials  have at least been covered and mastered. 

 

For STEM and related subjects like Economics, Finance, Accountancy, Architecture and the most competitive Business courses, maths is already a requirement - either A level maths or at least grade B in GCSE maths if not studying it at A level (the most competitive university courses even demand  grade 7 ie an A at GCSE at least). So yes, @Pups_mum, the STEM, Economics, etc departments are already weeding out at GCSE level- the students must take Higher Tier maths and get at least an A (or B at a push for some less competitive departments). Many applicants will have scored A star (grade 8 or 9). 

 

I would also encourage all students of any ability to aim for the Higher Tier and not the Foundation Tier, even if you think you might do a career where maths is not a pre-requisite. If you have a bad day in the Higher Tier  exam, you might drop from A to B (if A was your usual standard), or from B to C (if B was your usual standard). But if you have a bad day on the Foundation Tier exam, you drop from C to fail (you can’t be awarded an A or B in Foundation Tier). That’s a lot of pressure! Maths is not supremely difficult or more difficult than any other academic subject - most people who struggle with it do so because of fear or lack of encouragement or both. 

 

[Birdy]

Many universities in the United States are doing away with the SAT requirement. It has been shown to disproportionately favor wealthy students, as their parents pay for tutoring and private test preparations. There is no national curriculum in the United States, so class requirements vary not just by state, but also by school district. Most universities here require English until 18 (four years of high school English) and Maths until 17 (three years of high school) or 18 if your degree will be STEM related.Then once at university students are required to do another full year of English and at least a semester of maths, regardless of major. It’s ridiculous, really. So many liberal arts students struggle to get through the maths requirements. However, high school students are also able to take Advanced Placement courses and if they score high enough they can get college credit for those courses. It seems to me that A levels would be equivalent to AP courses in the United States. To be frank, in general the (pre-university) education system in the United States does not seem on par with the system in the UK, with the exception of our very expensive private schools.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

The liberal arts system has been and still on occasion discussed by the higher education sector here. The other side of the argument that often comes up is that the U.K. educational system specialises too early. And then when students go to university, it’s not as easy to move around courses should students change their mind. Their choice of 3 subjects at A levels can sometimes limit what uni programmes they can apply to.  Often you have to extend your overall undergrad registration over the standard 3 years or repeat year/years if you want to change courses. There are pros and cons to both sides. At first, I found it hard to sympathise with my DCs when they complain about how sixth form can be “so hard”, discussions would often end with me quipping “But you’re only doing 3 subjects!”. I am more understanding now, thankfully. I went to a liberal arts university where students had to take, amongst other things and whatever course they are doing, at least 3 terms of maths, 2 terms of philosophy (!), 2 terms of English, 2 terms of history and…3 terms of foreign language. University undergrad standard duration is 4 years and in the first 2 years, a lot of people I knew changed courses, often after experiencing subjects they particularly liked and realised they would prefer doing it than the one they originally chose.  I myself changed courses after my second year after having to endure 7am calculus and lunch time anatomy and organic chem classes twice a week. I just happened to pick an optional subject that I ended up majoring in because I enjoyed it so much. A friend of mine took an interdisciplinary route after the first year taking as many optional subjects she liked and as permitted within her course. By the end of it, she had obtained enough pre-requisite credits to choose between going to  law or medical school and she eventually went on to obtain, after just a few more years of postgrad, a double MBA/MD degree.  I don’t say I favour one system or the other but both definitely have their own pros and cons. 

[Sim]

I did the International Baccalaureate and although I worked harder to obtain that than I did to get my university degree, I loved it.  You have to do three subjects at Higher Level, three at Subsidiary Level, plus a Theory of Knowledge course to tie it all together.  In addition, you have to submit an extended essay in a subject of your choosing, guided by the relevant teacher.  It might have changed now, but in those days you had to do English, Maths and one foreign language.  The rest was up to you.  Most of my IB  classmates who went on to university in the States were able to skip the Freshman year because having the IB was deemed to be the equivalent of having done the first year of college.  Anyway, if anyone's child is thinking of doing the IB I can highly recommend it if they are prepared to put in the work.  It is a wonderful experience and also an entry into universities all over the world.

[Allwrong]

It’s a bit marmite.  My son found it superficial and way to much work for the sake of work without real intellectual challenge. Was irritated too by the smug pseudo-ideological tone of the supposed (but imperceptible) internationalism. Ironically, it restricted his range of learning too. Had the school allowed, he had chosen his 4 A Level subjects, but the IB limited him to doing to 3 Highers. He had to drop philosophy down to Standard, and then waste time on, amongst other bits and pieces, ´Theory of Knowledge’ which is philosophy light. 
Other son did 3 A Levels and 2 ASs and was much happier with that range. 

[Sim]

Superficial?  That’s interesting.  And it is an international diploma so no surprise that it has an international idealism. Anyway I did it a long time ago so maybe it has changed since then. 

[Sally-Anne]

On 04/10/2023 at 15:22, Kerfuffle said:

I’m wondering how Rishi Sunak expects specialist vocational sixth forms to cope with his new qualification idea  (including Maths and English until 18) while also training full time in ballet and for those courses that are degrees, will he decide they are useless and get rid of them too? 

I wouldn’t worry too much, it seems fairly unlikely Rishi will survive the next election.