Turnout required for vocational school

[Pinkshoes]

My daughter recently had her turnout assessed by a physio.  The outcome was that she does not have 180 degree flat turnout, but closer to 160 degrees.  The physio says they see some RBS students and RB dancers with less than 180 degree turnout, which surprised me.  My question is, does anyone know if you can, indeed, have a career in classical ballet with less than 180 degree turnout?  Do vocational schools take on children with lesser than 180 degree turnout?

 

 

 

 

[MissEmily]

My pupil did not get into White Lodge because of her "limited" turn-out (it is not flat but very good) but did get into everywhere else she applied (Elmhurst, Moorland, Tring, YDA), as well as RBS MAs. She is now at Elmhurst in Year 7 where she is thriving. 180 degrees is not the be all and end all for anywhere but White Lodge, where (in the words of her JA teacher) they "like the flat aesthetic".

[Pinkshoes]

18 minutes ago, MissEmily said:

My pupil did not get into White Lodge because of her "limited" turn-out (it is not flat but very good) but did get into everywhere else she applied (Elmhurst, Moorland, Tring, YDA), as well as RBS MAs. She is now at Elmhurst in Year 7 where she is thriving. 180 degrees is not the be all and end all for anywhere but White Lodge, where (in the words of her JA teacher) they "like the flat aesthetic".

That's really interesting. Thank you so much for posting this.  My daughter's turnout is around 80 degrees each side, so not far off the 90.  It's hard when it's something you just cannot change though.

[Balletmummy18]

My dd did not have 180 turnout when she got a place in yr 7 at WL. 

[Pinkshoes]

7 minutes ago, Balletmummy18 said:

My dd did not have 180 turnout when she got a place in yr 7 at WL. 

Thank you for replying. Out of interest, do you know the degree of turout she has? Was it off by just a little? 

[Pas de Quatre]

47 minutes ago, MissEmily said:

My pupil did not get into White Lodge because of her "limited" turn-out (it is not flat but very good) but did get into everywhere else she applied (Elmhurst, Moorland, Tring, YDA), as well as RBS MAs. She is now at Elmhurst in Year 7 where she is thriving. 180 degrees is not the be all and end all for anywhere but White Lodge, where (in the words of her JA teacher) they "like the flat aesthetic".

That I fear is one of the reasons why so many get assessed out of WL later. Hyperflexibilty means it is very hard to gain enough strength for more advanced technique.

[LinMM]

Isn’t the Physio just assessing the joint potential of the hip though? 
No child could be actually working with 180 degree turnout at age 11 surely? It takes a lot of training of the muscles to achieve this in actual dancing even if the feet can just hold the flat position. 
I suspect there are many professional dancers who do not have complete 180 degree turnout even with all the training. 
It’s probably just one factor that schools like RBS look at. I doubt any child would be refused entry on that one aspect alone. It is usually a combination of things which decides whether a student is suited to the intensive training or not at the point of applying….things can change over time of course. 

[Ruby Foo]

There are lots of students at RBS who do not have flat turn out or anything close. This is first hand experience. 
Most have good turn out, a few flat and a small minority slightly less than good. 

Obviously if you struggle with your turn out you are more likely to get injuries in the long run, not just in the hips but throughout the whole lower leg. So even if you progress through lower school it will almost definitely catch up with you at some point, which is worth considering.

I believe there are a few professional dancers with slightly less than required turnout. Merle Park was one, I believe.

[SissonneDoublee]

5 hours ago, Balletmummy18 said:

My dd did not have 180 turnout when she got a place in yr 7 at WL. 

For year 7 places, the physios assess for available range of turnout, rather than working range. A child at age 11 that is not working with flat turnout can still have the hip joints to allow it later. This is far more important for Year 7 places, and the ability to use their potential turnout is something they work to increase over years.

[Kerfuffle]

Not all professional dancers have flat turn out. Teachers often talk about « healthy turn out » which is making sure your knees are over your toes. Turn out is pretty much set at birth but using it to its full potential takes years to master. Sounds like your daughter has plenty of range  and in the end selection is a trade off of a whole load of physical and mental attributes, including musicality. Not many people have everything ! 

[Balletmummy18]

4 hours ago, SissonneDoublee said:

For year 7 places, the physios assess for available range of turnout, rather than working range. A child at age 11 that is not working with flat turnout can still have the hip joints to allow it later. This is far more important for Year 7 places, and the ability to use their potential turnout is something they work to increase over years.

Yes that was indeed the case - she gained full turnout as she went up the school. She is not hyper mobile and nor did she have banana feet or sway backs when she gained her place … she did and does have extraordinary strength and very long Achilles’ tendons. 

[Beezie]

I’m curious.  How is tibeal torsion viewed?  (Ie  when knees are straight and feet are slightly turned out due to a mild twist in the tibia.). In plié, feet are at 180 but knee alignment is over the big toe naturally.

 

In the mentioned ‘flat’ aesthetic, I assume it would still be a fault as the dancer isn’t equally as flat in the knee placement.  Am I right about that?

[taxi4ballet]

I don't know the answer to that one Beezie, but my feet are like that. Not that I'm a ballet dancer! I've never thought of it as the tibia having a slight twist, just that it is the way my feet are attached to my ankles. I do have to fight slight pronation.

[Pinkshoes]

Thanks everyone, this is encouraging.