Not vocational training.

[Kate_N]

6 hours ago, Allwrong said:

It's understandable when the most competitive schools are recruiting so readily from overseas where this sort of intensive training is clearly producing remarkable young dancers who can 'oust' locally trained dancers. Social media comparisons also have a part to play.

 

Just a general observation in terms of this point (not critical of your post  @AllwrongI think it's very wise) - but we might want to think about the fact that in other countries there are thousands of young people in ballet training, as there are here (probably hundreds of thousands!). So the handful of students we see here at one of the world's most renowned & visible ballet schools (RBS) are not necessarily representative of the training of the majority of dancers in other countries. We should be careful of making generalisations about whole countries' styles of training - or that misty place of "overseas" - from a few pupils we see here. We should realise these are the exceptional dance students, and logically, unlikely to be representative of the standards or norms of other countries.

 

I suggest anyone who wants to gain information about how dancers, teachers, and dance parents in other countries think about training, take some time to read our US-based "sister" site, Ballet Talk for Dancers. The same debates, the same anxieties about "all those foreigners taking our places," the same pain at realising that maybe your DC won't make it, the same concerns about teaching styles, the same wondering about whether to hothouse your child ...

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Kate_N

[Kate_N]

6 hours ago, Allwrong said:

She has dance-school friends going into smaller European companies who she hopes to emulate, which makes it look as though a more modest-scale dream might be possible.

 

 

Through family connections I know of several of these companies, and the work is excellent, regular performances to appreciative audiences, really interesting new choreography as well as the big classics, the possibility of developing as fully rounded artists into areas related to dance (choreography, scenic design, moving into other areas of performance) and stability and the possibility of family life in pleasant towns & cities. There is much to be said for the German Stadttheaters, for example. 

 

I wonder if part of the "problem" (if it is one, and I remain a bit more sceptical on that) of the RBS and the Royal Ballet, is that it's so visible, especially to those parents (and their children) who know very little about the theatre world. As others have pointed out, there are many excellent vocational schools in the UK. We are very lucky to have such world-class arts educators. 

[Tiaramum]

14 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Aren’t the current Y9s the first to be under that new set-up? In which case someone on this forum had previously mentioned that about half of the girls were not offered a Y10 place and of those staying, only 2 are British. I could be wrong but I seem to recall reading this on another thread, perhaps the one that was locked. I’ve heard of

14 hours ago, NotadanceMa said:

No they’re not. The program started in Sept 21

9 girls and 3 boys were assessed out for Y10.

we knew many of them and lots of them will be starting new vocational training places in Sept. 

the numbers for Y11 too but would be hesitant to put on here as it’s been pointed out in the past that I don’t have a child who’s gone to that school plus this thread might get locked if it gets too specific. 

 

The programme started in Sep 21 which makes the current year 9's the first cohort through this process. Only 2 of the girls staying are British and british trained. All places have been filled by internationals. The AD didn't attend his own spring intensive. The AD stood there on parents day when our cohort was in year 7 and PROMISED us anyone leaving would be aware there were issues and they would keep us fully informed. This is categorically not true. All of the girls leaving had received excellent reports, high praise and all had Exceeding for Professional Application and work ethic. We were told on more than one occasion how strong this year group is. Those leaving who wished to say in vocational training have all been offered places at the top schools in the uk. There has been a lack of support for the dancers and their families from RBS. 

 

I'm more than happy for anyone to PM me for more details. 

 

In saying all of this I would not take these 3 years away from my own dd and she would be the first to say she would do it all again. Oh its a rollercoaster but on the whole she has loved every minute of her time at WL. She has made life long friends, created some amazing memories, danced in the best studios, her education results are great, its given her more maturity then her counterparts who have remained at home, we;ve had more quality time as a family with her during her down time. Just take each moment as it comes, take the reports with a pinch of salt as they don't mean a jot. The AD will choose international students over homegrown talent more times than not. Can I change this? No. Have I highlighted this to the powers that be? Yes. 

I will continue to make sure families are aware of what this journey entails and try to make sure no other family suffers like ours. Will I continue to champion my dd and her friends. Hell yes! I will carry on working more than one job to fund this journey. Whether she makes it as a professional or not we have given her the best opportunities in life and those lessons learnt along the way will help her in the future. 

 

There is a talk on All things Ballet by Ballet Boost tomorrow at 4.30. I'm sure this will be helpful and beneficial to all. 

 

 

 

 

[NotadanceMa]

@TiaramumIm sorry your child and family experienced this even with resilience and determination it sounds very tough indeed.

 

Can I clarify something with you, because the new program started in September 21’ the first cohort through this new program will either graduate in summer ‘23 or move onto the pre-vocational level the following Sept for Y10.

 

The assessing out this year surely can’t be linked to the new program if its just started?

 

Your year is my child’s year cohort and they have children they know assessed out so they would have started in Sept ‘19 which was part of the longstanding lower school vocational program before things changed.

 

It would be interesting to hear how things are different for the new Y7’s starting from ‘21.

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by NotadanceMa

[Tiaramum]

So the new programme started in Sep 21, all existing students moved onto the new programme regardless of where they were in the old programme. The old programme ceased to exist. 

 

So the current year 9's were not assessed out (this has been made very clear by the school), they "graduate" from the foundation programme tomorrow. The ones leaving sadly do not have a place on the pre development programme which starts in year 10. This year 9 group have been the guinea pigs for the new structure. 

 

Does that help? 

 

I believe that the new year 7's that started in sep 21 have had it made very clear that they are only there for three years. 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

11 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

So the new programme started in Sep 21, all existing students moved onto the new programme regardless of where they were in the old programme. The old programme ceased to exist. 

 

So the current year 9's were not assessed out (this has been made very clear by the school), they "graduate" from the foundation programme tomorrow. The ones leaving sadly do not have a place on the pre development programme which starts in year 10. This year 9 group have been the guinea pigs for the new structure. 

 

Does that help? 

 

I believe that the new year 7's that started in sep 21 have had it made very clear that they are only there for three years. 

 

I thought that was the case and was therefore surprised when a previous poster mentioned it was only from the current Year 7s that this new programme commenced. 

[NotadanceMa]

8 hours ago, Allwrong said:

It strikes me that ballet training is going in two very different directions at the moment which seem contradictory. One seems more positive than the other. On the one hand, there is the rise of the hot-housed dancing child. I'm sure when my daughter was around 10, there was not the same industry of private classes and intensive training available to pre-vocational school children, and the pressure consequently less. It's understandable when the most competitive schools are recruiting so readily from overseas where this sort of intensive training is clearly producing remarkable young dancers who can 'oust' locally trained dancers. Social media comparisons also have a part to play. I am glad not to have had this pressure at that point.

I agree the ballet world has changed dramatically since my child started in it Y6 JA’s 2017. I remember hearing about private lessons and coaches and attending alsorts of intensives and workshops; but now it’s like things have exploded.

No one that we knew had private coaching or extra for their vocational school auditions back then; last year a new Y6 mum we met along the way said it feels like the odd one out if you’re child is not. 

 

There was a heated discussion on here last year because members auditioning for WL had professional teachers and coaches for the children’s audition. 
 

It does seem like the ballet world has really clearly divided into two parts; hothousing 🆚 what now feels like the old fashioned way. 😁

Money plays a significant part in these choices, so many parents like me can’t hothouse; would I hothouse my child if they had been identified as talented with potential and I thought could cope with this type of training??? I think I just might. 
 

I feel Covid has also changed my outlook on ballet training and opportunities that I might once have considered pursuing.

I still think Covid is changing the dance landscape as it hasn’t finished with us yet. If it makes me more cautious and wary then I’m sure that companies are now having to make space for things to be different.

 

[NotadanceMa]

13 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

So the new programme started in Sep 21, all existing students moved onto the new programme regardless of where they were in the old programme. The old programme ceased to exist. 

 

So the current year 9's were not assessed out (this has been made very clear by the school), they "graduate" from the foundation programme tomorrow. The ones leaving sadly do not have a place on the pre development programme which starts in year 10. This year 9 group have been the guinea pigs for the new structure. 

 

Does that help? 

 

I believe that the new year 7's that started in sep 21 have had it made very clear that they are only there for three years. 

 

How very odd indeed and how desperately unfair for those Y9 students. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all doing this I’m sure it cannot make any to you either. It must feel so much worse.

im being careful with my words as I really want the thread to stay open so we can discuss these areas.

Yes I have friends with children in the new Y7 cohort and yes it definitely is a 3 year program. 

It does really make me wonder if other training in the U.K. might change in line with this.

I find the contradiction from the AD of RB a strange one; there is a new video release from him talking about not wanting students they select to pursue competitions here or abroad and yet I am assuming it is the PdL and similar competitions that international students are selected from to fill the assessed out spaces. 🫤 

[NotadanceMa]

10 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I thought that was the case and was therefore surprised when a previous poster mentioned it was only from the current Year 7s that this new programme commenced. 

It was me, and I said it because I read the new program ‘brochure’ - there was no suggestion that the program would impact existing training only that it started Sept 21 with a new teacher etc and all new policies.

 

Blows my mind that this is not the case.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

4 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I agree the ballet world has changed dramatically since my child started in it Y6 JA’s 2017. I remember hearing about private lessons and coaches and attending alsorts of intensives and workshops; but now it’s like things have exploded.

No one that we knew had private coaching or extra for their vocational school auditions back then; last year a new Y6 mum we met along the way said it feels like the odd one out if you’re child is not. 

 

There was a heated discussion on here last year because members auditioning for WL had professional teachers and coaches for the children’s audition. 
 

It does seem like the ballet world has really clearly divided into two parts; hothousing 🆚 what now feels like the old fashioned way. 😁

Money plays a significant part in these choices, so many parents like me can’t hothouse; would I hothouse my child if they had been identified as talented with potential and I thought could cope with this type of training??? I think I just might. 
 

I feel Covid has also changed my outlook on ballet training and opportunities that I might once have considered pursuing.

I still think Covid is changing the dance landscape as it hasn’t finished with us yet. If it makes me more cautious and wary then I’m sure that companies are now having to make space for things to be different.

 

It definitely has although I know this always causes animated debate on this forum. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind this is true, more for certain school(s) and I also need to point out that this difference isn’t as defined when talking about boys and girls. Boys I believe still have a bigger chance of offers on mostly potential especially at a young age. It is also important to point out that even in the top schools, the distinction you mentioned is more glaring in certain school(s). We have witnessed this first hand. I bet there can be interesting  demographics that can be gleaned to support the difference you note. Check where most of the most recent cohort comes from, even geographically. Check where most of those who weren’t offered another year’s training come from.  How significant MDS funding did those offered a place were eligible for. How much training did they receive immediately prior to their offer. Again, I think this discussion of differences is more applicable to females.

[Tiaramum]

1 minute ago, NotadanceMa said:

How very odd indeed and how desperately unfair for those Y9 students. It makes absolutely no sense to me at all doing this I’m sure it cannot make any to you either. It must feel so much worse.

im being careful with my words as I really want the thread to stay open so we can discuss these areas.

Yes I have friends with children in the new Y7 cohort and yes it definitely is a 3 year program. 

It does really make me wonder if other training in the U.K. might change in line with this.

I find the contradiction from the AD of RB a strange one; there is a new video release from him talking about not wanting students they select to pursue competitions here or abroad and yet I am assuming it is the PdL and similar competitions that international students are selected from to fill the assessed out spaces. 🫤 

Yes, exactly this. The video of him talking about comps is a few years old now and is as you say a big contradiction. I've tried asking the question but have not had a reply!

[NotadanceMa]

15 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

It definitely has although I know this always causes animated debate on this forum. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind this is true, more for certain school(s) and I also need to point out that this difference isn’t as defined when talking about boys and girls. Boys I believe still have a bigger chance of offers on mostly potential especially at a young age. It is also important to point out that even in the top schools, the distinction you mentioned is more glaring in certain school(s). We have witnessed this first hand. I bet there can be interesting  demographics that can be gleaned to support the difference you note. Check where most of the most recent cohort comes from, even geographically. Check where most of those who weren’t offered another year’s training come from.  How significant MDS funding did those offered a place were eligible for. How much training did they receive immediately prior to their offer. Again, I think this discussion of differences is more applicable to females.

😊 I’m going to smile and nod because I know however I’m desperate to keep the thread going and the discussion under control.

And yes the ballet world is very small and I know the answers to many of the questions you posit. I know though on the forum it has to be firsthand experience, so for my child it was a bit of luck and an MDS. Without this ballet would have exited our lives stage left.

 

It is however a double-edged sword in so many ways, we still cannot compete with level of training their peers receive outside vocational or attend the intensives, so the hothousing continues even inside the system. My child is absolutely exhausted evenings, weekends and holidays and their body and brain cannot keep on training, neither does it want to. They are a slow burner, talented but finding it difficult to compete in a way. I find the whole thing really odd. Why is full-time vocational training not enough?
 

I admit for the first time ever I arranged for them to have a couple of privates with our lovely Emma Northmore in August who has known them since they were 10 and at Ballet Boost. (It’s not an advert for Emma, but for the purpose of transparency I prefer to say who)

She gives such positive constructive feedback and is upbeat and kind, which I think is lacking in some of the teaching approaches my child has experienced. Also she knows how my child learns and they would not have gotten to where they are now without support from her. She gave child a bursary and a scholarship place at ABA when we struggled to continue because of financial difficulties. She has a bit of my child’s heart always and mine. 
 

If the hothousing system becomes the norm and it seems to be, there will be no such thing as raw talent anymore entering an audition.

 

A poster said previously about young international children doing perfect multiple pirouettes. I’m not sure that’s how I want things to be when children are young and at the beginning.
 

I miss just attending our local school hall classes everything felt so much more straightforward then.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by NotadanceMa

[Neverdancedjustamum]

1 hour ago, NotadanceMa said:

😊 I’m going to smile and nod because I know however I’m desperate to keep the thread going and the discussion under control.

And yes the ballet world is very small and I know the answers to many of the questions you posit. I know though on the forum it has to be firsthand experience, so for my child it was a bit of luck and an MDS. Without this ballet would have exited our lives stage left.

 

It is however a double-edged sword in so many ways, we still cannot compete with level of training their peers receive outside vocational or attend the intensives, so the hothousing continues even inside the system. My child is absolutely exhausted evenings, weekends and holidays and their body and brain cannot keep on training, neither does it want to. They are a slow burner, talented but finding it difficult to compete in a way. I find the whole thing really odd. Why is full-time vocational training not enough?
 

I admit for the first time ever I arranged for them to have a couple of privates with our lovely Emma Northmore in August who has known them since they were 10 and at Ballet Boost. (It’s not an advert for Emma, but for the purpose of transparency I prefer to say who)

She gives such positive constructive feedback and is upbeat and kind, which I think is lacking in some of the teaching approaches my child has experienced. Also she knows how my child learns and they would not have gotten to where they are now without support from her. She gave child a bursary and a scholarship place at ABA when we struggled to continue because of financial difficulties. She has a bit of my child’s heart always and mine. 
 

If the hothousing system becomes the norm and it seems to be, there will be no such thing as raw talent anymore entering an audition.

 

A poster said previously about young international children doing perfect multiple pirouettes. I’m not sure that’s how I want things to be when children are young and at the beginning.
 

I miss just attending our local school hall classes everything felt so much more straightforward then.

 

 

 

 

Oh I know exactly what you mean about local school hall classes. My DD still attends one class with her local dance school she’s been since she was 5. It’s not a ballet class and how she loves it. It’s just a fun, nurturing environment, everyone is just there because they love dance and find it fun, they’re not there to be professionals in the future or because they’re preparing for auditions. It reminds her of the days when it was just pure fun, no drama, no competition, no possible upsets. 

[Allwrong]

8 hours ago, NotadanceMa said:

I feel Covid has also changed my outlook on ballet training and opportunities that I might once have considered pursuing.

I still think Covid is changing the dance landscape as it hasn’t finished with us yet. If it makes me more cautious and wary then I’m sure that companies are now having to make space for things to be different.

 

I do agree, and I think this 'space' could be a really positive thing. Kate mentioned companies that see dancers as potential creatives. Also, there seems to be an increasing tendency to recognise different types of dancer, that thanks to Covid some will not have followed classic career trajectories, and that may produce greater openness in the profession overall. The number of dancers in the UK who very publicly are returning to the top levels after childbirth is another facet of this. This seems pretty encouraging.

[DD Driver]

Just to give a perspective from 'the other side'. 

 

My DD is at a private studio, she has lessons on top of her regular schedule & does competitions.

You would call this hothousing.  To us it is following a training path more similar to the approach taken in elite sports...without the govt funding that elite sports enjoy!  The upside of this route is that she has considerable performance experience, which she loves.  She does more contemporary ballet than her peers in vocational schools. Also, as parents we have greater control over what we are paying for & our DD lives at home for longer. That works for us.

 

I have learnt that despite years of training, assessments of ability & potential are incredibly subjective.  That is, at YAGP one intl. judge (a company or vocational school AD) may give a score out of 100 that is 15 points different from another's!  You learn that your DD should avoid some places and head towards others.  

 

My DD has friends at top vocational schools (aligned to companies).  They are the 'chosen ones' - for now.  Many love the training & lifestyle.  They definitely have a better chance of getting into the associated companies.  Even so, we know a couple of girls who have recently left of their own accord & found other training options.  The landscape is evolving but these schools are slow to change.  That can be jarring for intl. students (and their parents) moving from private training into a vocational upper school. 

Edited July 15, 2022 by DD Driver

[Kerfuffle]

@DD Driver Thanks for your perspective, it’s good to hear your experience. I think that we need to listen to where you’re coming from too. Having private lessons I guess is necessary to polish a variation to professional standard, not exactly hothousing because anyone performing needs that. I think the hothousing people are referring to is for auditions at a very young age for WL etc which is quite different! If you have supportive teachers here it is also possible to enter YAGP/Prix de Lausanne it’s just not done as commonly - there’s nothing stopping British kids from doing  the same if being trained still at home. There are many roads to Rome as it’s always being said here, and they all have their challenges. By the time a young person is thinking of upper schools it’s not unreasonable to expect that the competition is going to come globally and it’s our job as parents to research the best way of being prepared be it vocational or otherwise. Equally we can study abroad too. 

[BalletBoysDad]

5 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

@DD Driver Thanks for your perspective, it’s good to hear your experience. I think that we need to listen to where you’re coming from too. Having private lessons I guess is necessary to polish a variation to professional standard, not exactly hothousing because anyone performing needs that. I think the hothousing people are referring to is for auditions at a very young age for WL etc which is quite different! If you have supportive teachers here it is also possible to enter YAGP/Prix de Lausanne it’s just not done as commonly - there’s nothing stopping British kids from doing  the same if being trained still at home. There are many roads to Rome as it’s always being said here, and they all have their challenges. By the time a young person is thinking of upper schools it’s not unreasonable to expect that the competition is going to come globally and it’s our job as parents to research the best way of being prepared be it vocational or otherwise. Equally we can study abroad too. 

Purely out of curiosity and interest, regarding the observation about ‘hothousing for young  WL auditions’, what do you think qualifies as hothousing? Where do you think the line between ‘pursuing at a deeper level to recreation’ (even if that’s with a view to vocational school), and ‘hothousing’ exists? 

[Kerfuffle]

Well I’m no expert for a start having never had a DC auditioning for WL at year 6! There have been multiple discussions about this topic on this forum -“is it still about potential” being one of them.  In my well loved book I had as a child “Life at the Royal Ballet School” written in the 80s it mentioned that a child could get into WL if even never having had a ballet lesson in their life! I guess that in theory it should be possible to get into vocational school doing your regular classes/associates at such a young age. Hothousing has to be a sudden increase in hours spent doing ballet, loads of private lessons in order to influence the outcome of the audition.  It’s about keeping it all in perspective and in proportion to the child’s age. By 16 there will naturally be a huge difference between a pre-pro dancer and a recreational one but what I wonder is how much there should be at 10 when the body and mind is so young?  I don’t know! 

[Lifeafterballet]

Hothousing

educate or teach (a child) to a high level at an earlier age than is usual.

I wasn’t sure what it was really so had to look it up. 
Yes, this happens 😊

There is a ballet teacher with a very large social media following that shares his private students successes on gaining places at vocational schools and on associate programs. There’s lots of them. He obviously knows what these schools are looking for and has a system for success. 
Is this hothousing ? It must cost the parents a fortune for the private coaching, but not a patch on what the vocational training is going to cost them 🤣 

Edited July 16, 2022 by cotes du rhone !
To add

[NotadanceMa]

For me ‘hothousing’ is where a child is in a local ballet school and usually an associate program or two (this seems to have increased) and on top of this they start having extra coaching and 1:1 lessons specifically for an audition with a view to getting ahead. 
There are now children in vocational schools that I know, day and boarders who still attend every associate program going at weekends and also privates on top of these. Let’s add in intensives every holiday, workshops and performing with various ballet company as they come up. This to me is hothousing, but has now become the norm.

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

12 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

For me ‘hothousing’ is where a child is in a local ballet school and usually an associate program or two (this seems to have increased) and on top of this they start having extra coaching and 1:1 lessons specifically for an audition with a view to getting ahead. 
There are now children in vocational schools that I know, day and boarders who still attend every associate program going at weekends and also privates on top of these. Let’s add in intensives every holiday, workshops and performing with various ballet company as they come up. This to me is hothousing, but has now become the norm.

 

 

I need to add that I think this is more in relation to girls rather than boys I find. I think that differentiation must be highlighted as I understand why it’s usually those with boys who reply when this discussion comes up. It’s really not the same and I rarely see “hot housed” boys, to clarify. In the last few years or so I saw an increasing number of years 5-6 training seemingly more hours than full time students. If dancing every day, doing more than 3 or more sessions of privates a week (usually with more than one teacher), 2 and more associates schemes, physio, PBT, conditioning not hot housing then I’m not sure what it is. Last year seemed extra transparent, with the same kids being posted by various schools and teachers. There have been some interesting comments where you can sense the tension between teachers and schools commenting on the same posts. I can only imagine how awkward it must be when everyone wants credit. It’s easy to know how much privates and class fees and studio costs are - all added up, I am astounded at how much it must all cost. On the upside, if parents can afford such expense then maybe they don’t need significant MDS funding, if any, once in vocational school. 

Edited July 16, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[NotadanceMa]

2 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I need to add that I think this is more in relation to girls rather than boys I find. I think that differentiation must be highlighted as I understand why it’s usually those with boys who reply when this discussion comes up. It’s really not the same and I rarely see “hot housed” boys, to clarify. Years ago I know of children who got offered places in top vocational schools on one to two 1-hour classes within a week (usually one of them a syllabus class) and one associates scheme a week. Recently and certainly in the last 2 years or so I saw an increasing number of years 5-6 training more hours than full time students. If dancing every day, doing more than 3 or more sessions of privates a week (usually with more than one teacher), 2 and more associates schemes, physio, PBT, conditioning not hot housing then I’m not sure what it is. Last year seemed extra transparent, with the same kids being posted by various schools and teachers. There have been some interesting comments where you can sense the tension between teachers and schools commenting on the same posts. I can only imagine how awkward it must be when everyone wants credit. It’s easy to know how much privates and class fees and studio costs are - all added up, I am astounded at how much it must all cost. On the upside, if parents can afford such expense then maybe they don’t need significant MDS funding, if any, once in vocational school. 

You are right when you say it is the last couple of years where things have taken off and I feel set a new benchmark for what is now seemingly quite normal.

Last year there were a number of discussions on here about children auditioning for vocational schools and being trained by a range of professionals on top of associates and regular ballet classes.

 

It seems like a shifting landscape of ballet training with the emphasis on more and more training. Maybe this is what it takes now, I don’t know how I feel about it all. 

 

 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

8 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

You are right when you say it is the last couple of years where things have taken off and I feel set a new benchmark for what is now seemingly quite normal.

Last year there were a number of discussions on here about children auditioning for vocational schools and being trained by a range of professionals on top of associates and regular ballet classes.

 

It seems like a shifting landscape of ballet training with the emphasis on more and more training. Maybe this is what it takes now, I don’t know how I feel about it all. 

 

 

I must admit it felt much more pronounced last year and the year before. Maybe everything being online just highlighted it. It is also more in relation to specific school(s) and not all schools although obviously a lot of those offered by one school are also offered by the others. I do think that those who don’t train as much hours do have a chance still although perhaps in more limited ways for example, would only be offered by some other schools which may not be their first choice. Even if they get full time offers, I can only imagine it doesn’t end there. There must be the constant pressure to be at a certain level especially in schools which do not give assurance of the provision of so and so number of years of training. How else can they have the edge? The expense must go beyond that of school fees. To be fair, only some schools allow their students to still be associates and often only one particular associates scheme is permitted. And most schools would surely frown upon training outside that which they provide.

[rowan]

I don’t comment so much on this forum these days, but I’ll say here that my DD is a ballet dancer and didn’t go to vocational school or have any private lessons either. Whether it’s harder now, I can’t say for sure, as I’m not in the loop. But what’s interesting to me is that out of all the companies DD has worked for -two of which are large national companies abroad - she was the only British female dancer employed. In a couple of them, there was a British male dancer, I think from RBS. On the audition circuit, she did come across other British girls, but they never ended up at the same company she was at. Perhaps that’s to be expected -so many dancers chasing so few jobs. However, within her companies, other countries had several of their nationalities employed.  Brazilians and Italians seem to do very well.

[BalletBoysDad]

13 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Well I’m no expert for a start having never had a DC auditioning for WL at year 6! There have been multiple discussions about this topic on this forum -“is it still about potential” being one of them.  In my well loved book I had as a child “Life at the Royal Ballet School” written in the 80s it mentioned that a child could get into WL if even never having had a ballet lesson in their life! I guess that in theory it should be possible to get into vocational school doing your regular classes/associates at such a young age. Hothousing has to be a sudden increase in hours spent doing ballet, loads of private lessons in order to influence the outcome of the audition.  It’s about keeping it all in perspective and in proportion to the child’s age. By 16 there will naturally be a huge difference between a pre-pro dancer and a recreational one but what I wonder is how much there should be at 10 when the body and mind is so young?  I don’t know! 

Thanks for replying. It’s indeed an fascinating subject and it’s always interesting to know what people think about such descriptions. I imagine that my DS would be viewed as ‘hothoused’ to some degree, judging by people’s thoughts. But I totally respect that it’s a subjective opinion everyone is entitled to. There are many other (hidden) factors that would might explain the number of classes he did, and why we chose them, some of them simply because of friendships etc. I know this thread more looks at this topic in relation to girls. But looking at boys of the same age in Japan, USA and some European countries on Instagram, there are boys of the same age going tens of hours a week, including physio and PBT that, entering competitions at very high levels, winning scholarships to international intensives, clearly with their eye of becoming PDL and YAGP winners. That would be my definition of hothousing. And as others have said, it must cost an absolute fortune. In comparison, I don’t know of any UK boy coming anywhere near as close to this level of training at a similar age. Even boys going to WL and other vocational schools might not even come close to this level of time and content…. though we can mostly only comment on what we see shared in social media, not what people are doing in private.
 

In relation to opinions about doing multiple classes, some of our UK associate classes are fortnightly with huge breaks between terms, so even appearing to do more than 1 or 2 associate classes doesn’t (in my view) come close to hothousing as the number of hours might still be relatively modest. 

Maybe to waters become a little bit muddier when private tuition starts to play a part, and for what outcome. 

[Kate_N]

15 hours ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

There is a ballet teacher with a very large social media following that shares his private students successes on gaining places at vocational schools and on associate programs. There’s lots of them. He obviously knows what these schools are looking for and has a system for success. 

 

I think I know to whom you're referring - he has posted here on occasion. I did quite a few of his online classes during the lockdowns which he generously did for free every day of the week. While these were not classes where we could receive feedback or individual corrections, his teaching is exceptional. The purity and simplicity of the technique he teaches, his pragmatic way of explaining how to do the simple and the difficult things (he's soooo good on balance and where you need to put your weight) are wonderful.

 

So a large SM presence does not automatically equate with lack of quality or playing the system.

 

I assume @cotes du rhone !that that is not what you are implying - but the debate on this & the other thread has tended to be in such either/or terms that are far too simplistic for the complexities of professional ballet training.

 

We need to consider the "and/and" as well as the "either/or" - which some posters are doing on this (and the other) thread, in amongst the whisperings of xenophobia and acting out of the understandable pain & bitterness at the toughness of the training and the profession.

 

Ballet at a high, professional level - like many sports, like music, like fine arts, like nuclear physics, like mathematics, like genetic biology and so on and on - is an elite profession. And so it should be.

Edited July 17, 2022 by Kate_N
Typo

[Kerfuffle]

Hi @BalletBoysDadplease don’t feel like we are having a go at you, it’s clear that you are giving your son the very best you can and that is wonderful. The young boys in international ballet competitions can be pretty intimidating with their fantastic skills! It’s hard for even a vocational school to replicate that level of tricks when they are trying to do things safely so there will always be a bit of a mismatch. Does he have male teachers that inspire and challenge him? It’s important that he gets that sort of input as he gets older so that he can really use his developing physique to its maximum. My daughter was at a regular RAD school then switched to Russian a year ago. There are several boys there who can partner her very effectively and also are amazing soloist dancers, thanks to the teachers, (one of them is male). You might consider the hours that they do as fairly intense as it’s daily plus at weekends. They perform full professional repertoire. So it’s possible even outside WL etc to get that sort of training if you’re lucky enough to live near it! My DD does SA too. They are all older than your son - about to start their upper school training. Best of luck to your DS! 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

1 hour ago, rowan said:

I don’t comment so much on this forum these days, but I’ll say here that my DD is a ballet dancer and didn’t go to vocational school or have any private lessons either. Whether it’s harder now, I can’t say for sure, as I’m not in the loop. But what’s interesting to me is that out of all the companies DD has worked for -two of which are large national companies abroad - she was the only British female dancer employed. In a couple of them, there was a British male dancer, I think from RBS. On the audition circuit, she did come across other British girls, but they never ended up at the same company she was at. Perhaps that’s to be expected -so many dancers chasing so few jobs. However, within her companies, other countries had several of their nationalities employed.  Brazilians and Italians seem to do very well.

I always did wonder this too when looking at the profiles of the larger national companies - it’s quite rare to find British female dancers. Almost rarer even to find British female dancers who were trained in the U.K. I did notice there’s an increasing number in some Junior or Studio companies who were trained in the U.K. but perhaps not all British. In quite a number of the larger European countries there are a good number of Australians and Americans I find. Australians in particular seem very well trained even from a young age (lower school age) even though as far as I know they don’t usually board at vocational schools from a young age. The most prominent schools I can think of there are the Australian Ballet School and Queensland Ballet Academy - as far as I know they don’t have them boarding from age 11/12. A lot stay with their families until much older and then do very well when auditioning for upper schools in Europe and elsewhere.

[Kerfuffle]

4 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

I think I know to whom you're referring - he has posted here on occasion. I did quite a few of his online classes during the lockdowns which he generously did for free every day of the week. While these were not classes where we could receive feedback or individual corrections, his teaching is exceptional. The purity and simplicity of the technique he teaches, his pragmatic way of explaining how to do the simple and the difficult things (he's soooo good on balance and where you need to put your weight) are wonderful.

 

So a large SM presence does not automatically equate with lack of quality or playing the system.

 

I assume @cotes du rhone !that that is not what you are implying - but the debate on this & the other thread has tended to be in such either/or terms that are far too simplistic for the complexities of professional ballet training.

 

We need to consider the "and/and" as well as the "either/or" - which some posters are doing on this (and the other) thread, in amongst the whisperings of xenophobia and acting out of the understandable pain & bitterness at the toughness of the training and the profession.

 

Ballet at a high, professional level - like many sports, lie music, like fine arts, like nuclear physics, like mathematics, like genetic biology and so on and on - is an elite profession. And so it should be.

  
The last two paragraphs sum this up beautifully. It’s easy to get critical of others and forget that it is an elite profession so very few prizes for very few people! I suppose the frustration as a parent  is probably the worst if you have trusted a place to prepare a child for a career and then feel let down. @rowan your observations are very interesting to hear, looks like the problems that British dancers face are across the board, be it vocational or non vocational. How did your DD succeed, and did she go away to train at 16? 

[Neverdancedjustamum]

8 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Hi @BalletBoysDadplease don’t feel like we are having a go at you, it’s clear that you are giving your son the very best you can and that is wonderful. The young boys in international ballet competitions can be pretty intimidating with their fantastic skills! It’s hard for even a vocational school to replicate that level of tricks when they are trying to do things safely so there will always be a bit of a mismatch. Does he have male teachers that inspire and challenge him? It’s important that he gets that sort of input as he gets older so that he can really use his developing physique to its maximum. My daughter was at a regular RAD school then switched to Russian a year ago. There are several boys there who can partner her very effectively and also are amazing soloist dancers, thanks to the teachers, (one of them is male). You might consider the hours that they do as fairly intense as it’s daily plus at weekends. They perform full professional repertoire. So it’s possible even outside WL etc to get that sort of training if you’re lucky enough to live near it! My DD does SA too. They are all older than your son - about to start their upper school training. Best of luck to your DS! 

The Russian schools do amazingly well, I can immediately think of two, one in London and one in the southwest, whose students do extremely well not just here but in Europe. Their timetables are brilliant, students can basically train up to 6 days a week without having to leave home at an early age. They also seem to have more performance opportunities. The downside obviously is that you have to live relatively nearby to make full use of such hours. Otherwise I can imagine it is easier for these parents to turn down full time offers to let their children train in these schools and then they can still stay at home with them especially when they’re so young. The list of schools these graduates go on to is very impressive - top schools in Germany, Switzerland, Norway…and regular offers from WL for their younger students. My DC isn’t a student of either of these schools btw so this is not an advert.

[Kate_N]

9 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I suppose the frustration as a parent  is probably the worst if you have trusted a place to prepare a child for a career and then feel let down.

 

But that career is NEVER a given.

 

In my field, I supervise the research of a lot of PhD students. I work hard with them to also prepare them for employment as academics (that's an extra bit of the job) but they're not all going to get jobs in their chosen field. Or they're going to have to move house & work, or switch fields, or ... 

 

'Twas ever thus.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

15 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

But that career is NEVER a given.

 

In my field, I supervise the research of a lot of PhD students. I work hard with them to also prepare them for employment as academics (that's an extra bit of the job) but they're not all going to get jobs in their chosen field. Or they're going to have to move house & work, or switch fields, or ... 

 

'Twas ever thus.

PhDs however, are adults, and some already have established careers prior to undertaking their graduate studies. At early/mid 20s I would like to think they’re more equipped to handle disappointment and surprises in life. I also believe their options are not as limited as a 15/16 year old even an 18 year old in a field that is extremely limited.  I always told my DCs I’d love for them to go to uni as this affords them the chance to find what they’re passionate about and love even whilst they’re in the system already. I was a product of the liberal arts system and was able to change my major after my second year of university. Even then my PG studies are only remotely related to my UG degree. But in HE, changes in focus and in institutions are completely fine and often enhances one’s experience. 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Kate_N]

58 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

looks like the problems that British dancers face are across the board, be it vocational or non vocational.

 

I'm perpetually puzzled, in this discussion, about where posters are getting their evidence? Apart from anecdotal observations ...