Neverdancedjustamum

3 minutes ago, glowlight said:

 

 

Please don't fall into the trap of giving up everything for this dream.  I know families who have sold the family home so their child can go to vocational school and that puts huge pressure on both the family and the child.  

 

Do what you can within your means, and try to enjoy the journey.

 

 

 Exactly this. Or giving up family holidays, cars, getting second jobs. I think more than the financial side of it is time lost with other family members. I’ve encountered so many young dancers and parents and then I get shocked these young dancers actually have siblings as they never feature in their parents’ social media posts or weekends! It’s easy to get so focused on your DC’s dream that there are things that get given up and you don’t want it to get to a point where you eventually  regret it. I already feel guilty spending most weekend day times with DD alone because of her associates class and that’s with having the rest of my week free to spend time with her and the rest of the family. This summer is the first time I will be going with her, just me and her, to a week-long summer intensive overseas but I already feel guilty about the rest of the family not coming with us. That’s a week in the summer we won’t be with them. Support them as best as you can but remember that they are only young once and these times are times with her and other family members you can’t get back. 
 

At 9 your DD seems to be doing enough but believe me, depending on where she wants to go for vocational school, you will notice that training for most kids ramp up in years 5 and 6. A lot of those who get places in certain top schools do quite a lot of hours including private lessons, associates, PBT/physio etc etc. there are still some who get in on a couple of classes in the week and an associates scheme but again depending on where she wants to go, you’ll notice it will be very rare for someone who does 1-2 ballet classes within the week and 1 associates scheme (with no extras like private lessons) to get a place at certain schools. And the higher up the years you go, it gets tougher to get a place and you’ll feel the need to do more and more and more (we are talking perhaps entering international comps). You will have to think about whether this is sustainable and worth the dream. 

It would very much depend on where she wants to go and at what age. Of course the advice is to focus on your child’s training and to not be influenced or affected by others’ training but the ballet world is very small and it’s very hard not to notice what others are doing. Let’s just say that in some associates’ parents talks there have been discussions on the worrying number of injuries due to overtraining and I also noticed that some of these institutions that release articles on how it’s quality over quantity are also the same ones that recruit heavily students who are extremely trained for many hours, most likely more hours than these articles recommend.  It is a very expensive and time consuming journey sadly and I would say it is even more so if your DC is a DD. You will have to weigh the pros and cons and whilst it’s easy to be carried away by the ‘now’, you also have to think long term (career opportunities, effects on family dynamics, possible plan Bs and Cs).

The application seems to open earlier and earlier through the last few years and I think this is because in the last couple of years RBS changed it from a 2 to 3-stage audition. From our experience, most would initially say they (or their DD/DS) only wants an MA place (for some this is true though a good number of course want a full time place and why not tick the box when it’s on the same form) and this becomes a tricky decision when offered a full time place. I might also be wrong but from recent memory, at least the last six or so years, the number of DCs who turned down a full time place this year is unprecedented as far as I know and can remember. I could be wrong but it’s easily double what I remember the last handful of years. In the past there would always be the odd 2 or so, it was so rare I actually remember more those who turned down places over the years. I am not sure what happened in the last 1-2 years but this number appears to have spiked up this year. I actually thought this would go down with the new system of assuring students’ place the first 3 years. The MA class I know has a majority former JAs. Those who weren’t were in the White Lodge finals. Also worth remembering that you don’t necessarily have to audition in the centre your DD wants to attend. There are whole other discussions (and interesting theories) on this on other threads. Lastly, RBS associates has of course the well known reputation but you have to keep in mind that some centres are known to ‘assess’ out (I only know of one centre but I thought I’d say ‘centres’ as I don’t know what happens in other centres though I’ve never heard of any assessed out in others). So keep in mind other great associate schemes like Central’s. I can only assume that beyond that first class, it will be harder to get a place as they go up years as most places would be taken up already by those who were there from year 7. There is a lot of interchange between these two schemes. I’ve seen DCs transfer from one to the other.

40 minutes ago, Fiz said:

My dd was devastated when her dance then drama ambitions came to nothing. She does a lot of amateur theatre, mainly dancing and singing. We watched her in a show last night. She looked so good! She’s medium height but really noticeable onstage plus when she was dancing, all her movements were clean, precise and ended off neatly. Her dance training is still there. It was a pleasure to watch her last night. I thought a lot about her lovely dance teacher too who unfortunately passed away on holiday a few years ago. More to the point was our daughter looked liked she was having a really good time and was radiant with pleasure when she came out of the theatre. There is life after dance classes. 

I totally agree with you. Come to think of it, the most radiant and happy I’ve seen my DD dancing have been during her high school’s annual dance show. It’s meant to be a competition between houses but everyone takes it in a very good natured congenial way, and they all end up having the time of their lives. I suspect only a very few small minority who participate dance seriously outside of school (her school seems to place more importance on those who excel in sports and all students are highly academic) but everyone gets into it and the atmosphere and buzz around it is an amazing vibe. We always look forward to it every year. It’s the only time my DD’s two loves coincide. 

5 minutes ago, Beezie said:

Or perhaps said better: I wish there was a way for dancers to feel accomplished and fulfilled in the middle ground between recreational and professional.

I know exactly what you mean. It’s a tricky balance. It’s a hard place to be. My DD cut down big time since Christmas to the point she didn’t have any in studio ballet classes at all within the week which was a worry for me as she attends quite a competitive associates scheme in the weekend where she is amongst amazing and focused young dancers some of whom are in full time vocational school. My DD’s dancing hours are actually less than what would be called ‘recreational’. I have to tell you, I actually dreaded watching day for probably just the second time ever in my life. In a way, I needn’t have worried. She was absolutely fine and I think a big part of it was because she was dancing knowing there were no expectations from me and there was absolutely no pressure of any sort at all. And when you dance that freely, I think your strengths show (the weaknesses did as well, but she knows about these 😂 and she knows I know). For us I think a good middle ground is trying to keep some of the more competitive elements of dancing that will keep them on their toes. For example, she’s auditioning for something that I personally know she has no chance of getting but it will be good experience for her. She will be the youngest and it will be so outside her comfort zone but she’s ready to take it as a challenge. Every so often, she decides she wants to attend summer intensives and we often go for ones I don’t think she will get so when she does it’s always a good surprise. She will then be among very good dancers in these intensives that I think she will be forced to bring her A game. Within the week she is just a school girl, a teenager. I have to thank my DD for making it easy for us in being in this ‘middle ground’, she is a masterclass at compartmentalising her life. For example, no one in her academic school even knows she dances. And yet her weekends are full of it. My fear now (in a selfish way) is that in a year or two she might change her mind and decide to go all out and audition for schools. It’s so easy to get influenced when she’s often surrounded by brilliant dancers who are so focused and seem to know what path they want to follow in the dance world. 

Would love to know what others think of this book. Thanks for the link to the article @Beezie! It now makes me want to read it too. Just out of sheer curiosity thankfully as DD, whilst loving dance and ballet mostly, is more interested in attending school and eventually going to university. I actually have to thank her being neck deep in ballet/associates a few years ago to see clearly around her that realistically she (and we) don’t have it in us to spend as much time and money to ‘join the race’ as such. When we look around us now, we just realise the crazy amount of time and money others of similar age spend on this dream. It’s good that they’re passionate about something but many times I’ve had mums ask me “and for what?” and I can’t answer them truthfully as I don’t think it would be helpful to tell them the stats as we all know it. I suppose any of these young dancers can actually be one in that small % that do achieve their dream and that’s what keeps these young dancers and their parents and families going.  I think reading this book will assure me that my DD being realistic from an early age and just wanting to dance simply for the love of it (and nothing else) is the right path and that I should be pleased she insists on having at least 2-3 dance-free days (minimum) within the week and 1-2 weeks of dancing (maximum) in the summer 😂

I’m interested to know more about this too. My understanding is that the ENB Youth Co attend this summer intensive as part of their programme but some places are open to other dancers.

All items now sold. 

19 minutes ago, Sunflower said:

Yes please @Neverdancedjustamum I would love this for for daughter.

 

I shall PM you.

I’m so sorry, this jacket sold just this morning  sorry about this. I was just about to mark it as sold.

35 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Well….even if benefitting from scholarships & MDS funding (which we very fortunately have) I’d say add up all the prior to vocational training/extra holiday courses/masterclasses/exam fees/additional dance kit/pointe shoes & then the travel & hotel costs to get to & from schools/courses….not to mention costs like show tickets, kennel costs for dog tk enable family to get to said shows….. I sometimes do rather envy the ‘family across the road’ who had kids who did no extra activities beyond Sunday swim lessons with mine when aged 5-8!! 
Well…. Guess I made my bed….!! Also think loss of potential earnings for the hours spent driving said places…..

Herein madness lies so I’ll stop now!! 

Ahaha! Love the mention of the ‘family across the road’ - I think we all have one of these! 😂 It’s the weekends that kill me and I can’t believe I’m even complaining about this since my DD doesn’t do much at all, no classes within the week so nowhere near the time and finance commitment of others. Whenever I start complaining about the expense and travel of our term time Saturdays, the mums of my DD’s school mates do remind me that it’s not too bad at all. One of DD’s friends swim for county (5am starts during the week for training!) and one plays cricket for county (between two siblings the mum and dad are out every day of the week after school for their training).  I guess with ballet and dance in general, for me, it’s mostly the expense. Non-dancing friends can’t believe I’m going with DD overseas for a week for what they call “summer school”.  To them, that’s madness. 

7 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Are we talking about dancers who haven't become professionals applying to Uni alongside others of the same age group. Or are we talking about older dancers looking for a second career? There are different entry requirements for "mature" students.

Some universities automatically categorise applicants 21 or older as ‘mature applicants’ (which, for someone my age, makes me feel absolutely ancient). Also depending on which university, the application procedure would be the same as for other students and would still require meeting standard formal entry criteria. I do know some universities take into account work/industry experience in lieu of certain formal requirements, but some would require evidence of academic qualifications completed within x number of years. 

7 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I keep being told that good  unis are impressed by ex dancers. If you have a diploma or degree from a top dance school is it well respected and easy to get more qualifications in a related area? (I’m thinking of arts / humanities - I know that science might require specific a levels). 
 

I think it would depend on which unis. If I were to guess, ex dancers would also be subject to the same basic entry criteria as other applicants (unless the unis have a special entry criteria for their arts programmes). Where I imagine it would come into play would be during interviews or when admissions panels look at the overall profile of the applicant. It would also be dependent on the programme/course they are applying for. I can say from experience that for unis with hundreds of applicants vying for a place, there will be a good number of applicants who would have ‘special somethings’ in their application, whether this be playing sport at county or national level or being exemplary in music for example. Some unis would only interview shortlisted applicants. My DD and I’s favourite example of an ex-dancer who successfully transitioned to a top university is former RB dancer Beatriz Stix-Brunell who is now a student at Stanford University in the US (undertaking studies not related to arts or performance I think).

BBA jacket still for sale. Almost brand new condition.  Happy to sell for £27 including first class tracked postage or £25 first class (not tracked). Size adult small. Comes from a smoke and pet-free home.

26 minutes ago, oncnp said:

Not sure it's an apples-to-apples comparison (pretty sure it's not) but your post prompted me to look up what dancers at some UK companies may make

 

equity-annual-report-2021 (5).pdf

 

RB pg 43

ENB pg 44

Very interesting info! Thanks @oncnp Just curious as to why the Principals have no salary info for RB? It just says “NA”.  And for ENB there is no mention of Principals. Perhaps I’m just not looking in the right place and the info on principals is elsewhere in the report and not within the tables. 

28 minutes ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

Thank you @Neverdancedjustamum

I agree, it’s a very tough question to answer. That 80/20 ratio is really helpful - that must make things so much clearer.  
We seem to have the opposite (don’t stretch so much while growing, which I find confusing). I also found the information was very clear in associate scheme (JA) so I was intrigued to see what is suggested in various settings. 

 

Yes it is a lot of training (I can’t indicate who with or where unfortunately) but the small amount of stretching doesn’t seem to be nearly enough for my DC so trying to figure a way around this. DC has very little time around the busy day-to-day schedule to add this in. Plus it’s simply not allowed of an evening. 
 

There have been concerns raised, mostly physical/body type which may prevent my DC continuing much longer, but much of it is related to lack of flexibility (in various areas), my DC is very capable of being flexible but it doesn’t seem to be happening while in the programme, in fact they often rapidly lose flexibility in areas like back, ankles, hips (turnout) during the term. Which is then regained on long weekends or holidays at home where there is time for attention on those areas. Wondering if this is normal or maybe we we just need to move to a more tailored approach for DC (due to needing more) rather than continue on a programme. I hope that makes some sort of sense. 

I can totally understand. My DC was reasonably flexible as a child, did gymnastics for about 2 years. Artistic (I think this is the one with apparatus?), not rhythmic (from which many transition to ballet), so was always more about strength than flexibility and agility. That should have given me a clue then! DC then had multiple significant growth spurts (at one point over 10cm in a year) and their back just got sturdier and stiffer, affecting hips too. Perfect for physical sports but not for ballet, according to the physio. Unfortunately for DC, these are the very things that are immediately visible in terms of the aesthetic of the arabesque line for example. I still don’t know if DC will regain the required flexibility in those areas, especially with DC’s (non)love for stretching but we have recently tried gyrotonics. It’s very early days so I won’t be able to tell if it makes a difference. DC definitely enjoys it more than solo stretching. It is a shame that lack of flexibility is immediately apparent in ballet, as often this overshadows their other strengths. My DC’s strengths are turns and jumps but these appear to be less appreciated than a stunning arabesque line I find. I think the best thing is to speak to your DC’s teacher and a physio who specialises in dancers. They can help guide and are qualified to do so. In terms of physios, I would suggest doing research and not immediately going to the ones usually posted on social media. Whilst they are no doubt very good, I find that the fees they usually charge can be limiting if you want regular sessions. Dig deeper and you will find more affordable but just as qualified ones (who often work with company dancers and vocational school students).

3 hours ago, BalletBoyMumma said:

Hi, 

 

Just wanting to pick the brains of those more in the know. Say, for example, you do about 20hrs of ballet a week, broken up into various times, what is the minimum amount of stretching that should be done? I realise that everyone is different and some will require lots, or not so much, but generally speaking, what would be recommended from a teaching/young dancer’s point of view? Say, the minimum requirement to even just maintain some sort of flexibility and prevent from stiffening up/becoming inflexible? 
 

I think you will receive lots of different  answers to this query as it would depend on a whole variety of factors. It would depend on age, what your DC does, any targeted areas that need more work, etc, etc. 20 hours seems quite a lot of ballet (to me, but that’s only because my DC only dances in the weekends) especially if the DC isn’t in full time vocational school (and if DC is, they’re probably closely guided and monitored on the stretching and conditioning they need). When my DC started one of the more well known associates scheme in Year 7, they were given this sheet of conditioning exercises that they were told should not take longer than 20 mins. For my DC, who unfortunately does not find stretching fun (DC is very active and restless and likes to be doing all sorts of stuff so the idea of just being in one place, despite trying to listen to music etc, just bores them), trying to get that 20 minutes is already a chore and they’re meant to do this 6 times a week. As DC’s teacher and physio got to know them, DC was also given guidance on which exercises to focus on and for how long. For example my DC isn’t naturally flexible but has a very strong core and just a strong sturdy physique overall. Never had any injuries, never experiences any pains and niggles. Add to this extreme growth spurt within a year and they had been advised to focus their time on stretching rather than conditioning/strength work (DC was told to do 80/20, stretching/conditioning), for example. 
 

I think it’s about being guided by those who know your DC well and what your DC is willing to do without killing the joy of the whole thing. I know some DCs who can stretch for hours, all day, every day and they actually enjoy it. Then there are those, like my DC, who’d find half an hour of half-hearted stretching already tortuous.

There probably isn’t a definitive answer to this and I suspect you’ll get mixed responses. I personally prefer in-person but that’s because my DD has an awful track record for anything recorded. She does fairly well in in-person or even live zoom auditions but doesn’t do well in video (after lockdown, she’s now extremely averse to anything that involves videos).  If your DD has fared well in the past with video auditions or assessments then go with your instinct and which she is more keen/comfortable to do. 

I’m not sure if associates schemes are fine with it but I think if you’re open and transparent and inform them, they usually are. I know in Birmingham there are many RBS JAs who are also Elmhurst Young Dancers and in London, there are RBS SAs who are also associates of ENBS. And a lot of DCs attend Saturday AND Sunday associates. I actually know of young dancers from previous years who were associates of 4 (!) schemes. I don’t think it’s unheard of to be an associate of 2. In fact, I think it’s becoming the norm, now that the dance world and gaining places in vocational schools are increasingly becoming more and more competitive. There are many young dancers who try to squeeze in as much as they can within the week. 

They do come up small, and quite short on the body.  I find the camisole ones to be the smallest fitting ones. The sleeves (3/4 or full length) tend to be narrower than other brands’ sleeves. However, be careful about sizing up with the styles that are very low back. The arms can possibly fall off the shoulders if you size up. Daria definitely comes up small. I would say the Anna is more consistent size-wise with other brands, so is probably a safer bet. You can also order the Anna customised with different sleeve lengths. The Daria I believe only comes as a camisole.

52 minutes ago, FlexyNexy said:

The ENBS had junior associates program that my DD attended back in 2011 and parents have been sold this as a somehow feeder to their full time school. We have been also told that the program would move to their new facily where it would merge under ENB with opportunities to come.
Nothing of it was true and they closed the program abruptly when during the last day of the school show the Artistic Director (samira) got up the chair and said there are not re-opening the course after summer and only focusing on primary school children. I guess it emerged back in September 2021 when they need some financial injection with focus on senior students.

That makes sense @FlexyNexy, especially as I believe there was a ‘pre-application’ sifting via video. Thankfully my DD is averse to anything that involves videos otherwise it would basically have been a £35 or so application fee with no guarantee you’d be able to audition or be seen in person. I’m not sure how many applied and how many they invited to audition in person. However, I did see from a number of social media posts that some of those offered places were already in full time vocational school anyway. I know there are mixed opinions on full time students attending associates schemes but this is another example of that.

To complicate matters, I think the fit of the leotards also depend on the style. Camisole ones (Daniella/Zoe/Marisa/Kiki) I find tend to be smaller fitting, unless they’re the almost backless ones like the Tamara and Nadja . Those with low backs (Gina/Alicia) tend to fit a bit looser and if you don’t get the right size, the sleeves have a tendency to slip off the shoulders. Unfortunately I found their size guide quite unhelpful. From what I remember it was based on height etc. My daughter can fit both XS and Small in most other brands but is firmly a minimum Small in Yumiko.

21 minutes ago, Twang said:

Hi,

 

I am looking for any pre loved Degas or Yumiko leotards (any style) before buying new.

 

Thank you ☺️

If you have Instagram, do have a look at  theleolounge_ 

I’ve seen lots of Yumiko and Degas posted on there.  
 

Just the jacket for sale now. Almost brand new condition and price (£30) already  includes first class tracked postage already. Comes from a pet-free/smoke-free home.

I was going to say CD uses her own-branded resistance band but if you were looking for a more ‘loop type’ band then one option is the numbered one which in a way is more versatile/adjustable. They aren’t that expensive and can be bought from Amazon:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acupoint-Stretching-Exercise-Flexibility-Gymnastics/dp/B09W2F3TKC

Not sure if that’s similar to what you’re looking but hopefully it provides an option.

8 minutes ago, kimsballet said:

What are these amazing socks called please?!

My DD hated the usual ballet socks and would only wear these tights-material ballet socks. She always preferred tights but if she HAD to wear socks, she’d wear these ones. They never sag, stayed up and didn’t look like football-socks length like some normal ballet socks are.  Quite a few brands do them now and I’m sure one of these smelled really nice and fresh and were anti-odour (and this claim actually worked most of the  time):

Katz Dancewear Girls Ladies Thin Smooth 60 Denier Pink Ballet Dance Tights Socks£1.95Amazon.co.uk

https://www.dancewear.co.uk/product/seamless-no-bag-ballet-socks/?attribute_pa_colour=white&attribute_pa_size=uk-shoe-size-4-7&gclid=Cj0KCQjwpPKiBhDvARIsACn-gzDyMqo6qOMB4v5NJLjiMu91HzZyKoXxRgrtLYmcRcCRMjcoMecpS0oaAiyqEALw_wcB

https://www.dancewearcentral.co.uk/accessories-c1/exam-regulation-accessories-c10/lightweight-50-denier-ballet-socks-p3659