Neverdancedjustamum

This year I’ve seen a good number of non-vocational students do very well with offers from top schools overseas for upper school. I wonder if this means that as long as you have the finances and time, full time at 11/12 years old really is not the only option. I’ve seen a handful of announcements on social media of young people who were not previously full time and yet were offered places in schools like Basel, Zurich, Cranko and Paris Opera Ballet School.  This can be quite inspirational for those who opted to stay at home and not go full time at a young age.

1 minute ago, Irmgard said:

 

As I can’t see any other mention of this on the forum, I am letting everyone know that Daria Klimentova is giving four online ballet classes, 8-11 August (11.30am-1pm UK time), from her summer school in Prague next month (intermediate and advanced level standard).  There is a charge of £25 per class. These are excellent for those who cannot attend a summer school in person or for those of us who just want some summer exercise!  I did them last year and noted that Daria gives individual attention and corrections to everyone who has their cameras on.  As one would expect from this international ballerina and teacher at the Royal Ballet School (upper school), the exercises are beautiful (and fun!) and the corrections are extremely thoughtful. The address is  masterclassesinprague on Instagram or  .

That’s great to know. Does she do the classes whilst the in-person students are there or are they done separately? I did look at this but was worried it was going to be more of a “follow-along” class.

39 minutes ago, Robin24 said:

Hi, we have signed up for the classes. The form stated that they would be between 5pm-8pm on Tuesdays and Thursdays. You can select either day or both but the confirmation email said that the exact timings wouldn’t be sent until after the closing date unfortunately. Luckily we don’t have any activities on Tuesday evenings from September so could commit to it without worrying about a potential clash.

Thanks so much. Very tricky really as it’s a 3 hour time range and from my understanding SAs were sent a specific time quite a few weeks ago. 

4 days to go until the deadline to sign up for the online body conditioning classes but as far as I know MAs still haven’t received the timings for the classes…has anyone contacted RBS about timings? I emailed them on the 11th July and received a response on the 18th saying they’re still in the “process of arranging the SA class times first, then we will be in touch about what times we can offer MA.” For MAs who have signed up, did the confirmation email or form give any indication of what timings might be? It’s very hard to commit to it without knowing timings and because payment is non-refundable. Leaving it this late probably means most other classes for next term are now confirmed and it will be a matter of whether the kids can squeeze in the online class amongst their other activities.

4 minutes ago, Millicent said:

Thanks. One question I have is whether its usual practice to go to more than one shop. For example if she finds a pair she likes at Bloch can I get them to hold that pair for her while she go to another shop? Is that normal practice or will the shop be offended?!

Not at all. They would be used to it. In my experience, even before I asked, they offer to hold pairs for us while we go around the other shops. 

18 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

I don’t know how this works beyond 16 as we aren’t there yet but I feel that with my daughter she is getting good quality ballet lessons most days and this is what matters. If she was at boarding school I think the most important lesson would be the ballet one, which is where the technique is refined. Character pas de deux are great but they won’t be assessed in any US audition. I think this is enough for now but correct me if this is wrong anyone out there! She is approaching GCSE year and has always managed her school work - she agrees it’s very important. She says that having limited time helps her focus and she’s very organised as a result. Personally I wish that she could continue both at a high level but as it is here I feel like she’s going to have to put her academics on hold. If we were in Europe or USA it would be different - she could do both.

You’re right, I don’t think character pas de deux is in any US audition. However, do try and squeeze contemporary in if she doesn’t yet. I know this can make a difference in being noticed when auditioning for upper schools.  I know some ballet teachers (not all!) underestimate the importance of contemporary but it can spell that difference especially when they can pick up choreo quickly. In an audition where most if not all have lovely ballet technique, those who are good, comfortable and natural at contemporary stand out.  Note that a lot of local dance schools offer “contemporary” that in reality is more lyrical/jazz/acro/tricks. We have found it hard to source contemporary classes/lessons that is more aligned with the contemporary that upper schools look for.

2 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

@rowanit’s so interesting to hear how your daughter made it to being a professional without attending upper or vocational school. How many hours was she doing weekly when she was 16+, were they one to one and with others? Did she do her A Levels during this time? I guess that her teachers were Russian and had a good idea that she was capable of being successful? Has she got a very classical physique - I have been told this makes a big difference in auditions? Sorry about the amount of questions I’m just really interested to know as it’s rare to hear this sort of journey. 
 

 

I too am very interested in this because it must be a struggle trying to fit in dance hours when attending high school/secondary school.  Some of the recent dancers I’ve seen who have been offered places in top European schools were home schooled so they can squeeze the hours in and I know some of the most in demand private coaches can only offer availability within normal school hours. This to us was a non-negotiable, for personal reasons, we always prioritised academics above all other activities. This is not just my decision as a parent but my DD in herself would never want to miss a day of school or even finish school a few days early for the summer to attend summer intensives (this is why we had to turn down US SI offers - most start very early, either June or early July). From experience we find it very hard to squeeze in dancing during the week hence my DD can only do two classes within the week. School work takes around 2 hours a night, and due to after school activities and sports she doesn’t get home early. We know this is nowhere near the hours her peers do in a week but thankfully she has no intentions of auditioning for full time (at the moment). But should she change her mind, I’m pretty sure it will be impossible to get the required training in especially as they go up the years and you’re against internationals who have extensive and intensive training.

On 01/07/2022 at 20:57, Ballet Power said:

Yes I’ve had an email about the new uniform. But not heard about the online classes yet.

I still haven’t received information on the online classes either up til now. I’ve ordered the uniform the day the link to order was sent but haven’t received the uniform either. I think it’s been over 2 weeks? I’m not sure how long they said it might take but I’m a bit worried about it arriving whilst we are away on holiday because sometimes our parcels just get left by our door.

15 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

But that career is NEVER a given.

 

In my field, I supervise the research of a lot of PhD students. I work hard with them to also prepare them for employment as academics (that's an extra bit of the job) but they're not all going to get jobs in their chosen field. Or they're going to have to move house & work, or switch fields, or ... 

 

'Twas ever thus.

PhDs however, are adults, and some already have established careers prior to undertaking their graduate studies. At early/mid 20s I would like to think they’re more equipped to handle disappointment and surprises in life. I also believe their options are not as limited as a 15/16 year old even an 18 year old in a field that is extremely limited.  I always told my DCs I’d love for them to go to uni as this affords them the chance to find what they’re passionate about and love even whilst they’re in the system already. I was a product of the liberal arts system and was able to change my major after my second year of university. Even then my PG studies are only remotely related to my UG degree. But in HE, changes in focus and in institutions are completely fine and often enhances one’s experience. 

8 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Hi @BalletBoysDadplease don’t feel like we are having a go at you, it’s clear that you are giving your son the very best you can and that is wonderful. The young boys in international ballet competitions can be pretty intimidating with their fantastic skills! It’s hard for even a vocational school to replicate that level of tricks when they are trying to do things safely so there will always be a bit of a mismatch. Does he have male teachers that inspire and challenge him? It’s important that he gets that sort of input as he gets older so that he can really use his developing physique to its maximum. My daughter was at a regular RAD school then switched to Russian a year ago. There are several boys there who can partner her very effectively and also are amazing soloist dancers, thanks to the teachers, (one of them is male). You might consider the hours that they do as fairly intense as it’s daily plus at weekends. They perform full professional repertoire. So it’s possible even outside WL etc to get that sort of training if you’re lucky enough to live near it! My DD does SA too. They are all older than your son - about to start their upper school training. Best of luck to your DS! 

The Russian schools do amazingly well, I can immediately think of two, one in London and one in the southwest, whose students do extremely well not just here but in Europe. Their timetables are brilliant, students can basically train up to 6 days a week without having to leave home at an early age. They also seem to have more performance opportunities. The downside obviously is that you have to live relatively nearby to make full use of such hours. Otherwise I can imagine it is easier for these parents to turn down full time offers to let their children train in these schools and then they can still stay at home with them especially when they’re so young. The list of schools these graduates go on to is very impressive - top schools in Germany, Switzerland, Norway…and regular offers from WL for their younger students. My DC isn’t a student of either of these schools btw so this is not an advert.

1 hour ago, rowan said:

I don’t comment so much on this forum these days, but I’ll say here that my DD is a ballet dancer and didn’t go to vocational school or have any private lessons either. Whether it’s harder now, I can’t say for sure, as I’m not in the loop. But what’s interesting to me is that out of all the companies DD has worked for -two of which are large national companies abroad - she was the only British female dancer employed. In a couple of them, there was a British male dancer, I think from RBS. On the audition circuit, she did come across other British girls, but they never ended up at the same company she was at. Perhaps that’s to be expected -so many dancers chasing so few jobs. However, within her companies, other countries had several of their nationalities employed.  Brazilians and Italians seem to do very well.

I always did wonder this too when looking at the profiles of the larger national companies - it’s quite rare to find British female dancers. Almost rarer even to find British female dancers who were trained in the U.K. I did notice there’s an increasing number in some Junior or Studio companies who were trained in the U.K. but perhaps not all British. In quite a number of the larger European countries there are a good number of Australians and Americans I find. Australians in particular seem very well trained even from a young age (lower school age) even though as far as I know they don’t usually board at vocational schools from a young age. The most prominent schools I can think of there are the Australian Ballet School and Queensland Ballet Academy - as far as I know they don’t have them boarding from age 11/12. A lot stay with their families until much older and then do very well when auditioning for upper schools in Europe and elsewhere.

2 hours ago, Angela Essex said:

😭 that’s sad I’d love to see him dance again 

I can see him in ABT Studio Co and if I were to guess that’s where he will be going. ABT Studio Co dancers do so well after the year or two they spend with the company often going on to the main company. 

8 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

You are right when you say it is the last couple of years where things have taken off and I feel set a new benchmark for what is now seemingly quite normal.

Last year there were a number of discussions on here about children auditioning for vocational schools and being trained by a range of professionals on top of associates and regular ballet classes.

 

It seems like a shifting landscape of ballet training with the emphasis on more and more training. Maybe this is what it takes now, I don’t know how I feel about it all. 

 

 

I must admit it felt much more pronounced last year and the year before. Maybe everything being online just highlighted it. It is also more in relation to specific school(s) and not all schools although obviously a lot of those offered by one school are also offered by the others. I do think that those who don’t train as much hours do have a chance still although perhaps in more limited ways for example, would only be offered by some other schools which may not be their first choice. Even if they get full time offers, I can only imagine it doesn’t end there. There must be the constant pressure to be at a certain level especially in schools which do not give assurance of the provision of so and so number of years of training. How else can they have the edge? The expense must go beyond that of school fees. To be fair, only some schools allow their students to still be associates and often only one particular associates scheme is permitted. And most schools would surely frown upon training outside that which they provide.

12 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

For me ‘hothousing’ is where a child is in a local ballet school and usually an associate program or two (this seems to have increased) and on top of this they start having extra coaching and 1:1 lessons specifically for an audition with a view to getting ahead. 
There are now children in vocational schools that I know, day and boarders who still attend every associate program going at weekends and also privates on top of these. Let’s add in intensives every holiday, workshops and performing with various ballet company as they come up. This to me is hothousing, but has now become the norm.

 

 

I need to add that I think this is more in relation to girls rather than boys I find. I think that differentiation must be highlighted as I understand why it’s usually those with boys who reply when this discussion comes up. It’s really not the same and I rarely see “hot housed” boys, to clarify. In the last few years or so I saw an increasing number of years 5-6 training seemingly more hours than full time students. If dancing every day, doing more than 3 or more sessions of privates a week (usually with more than one teacher), 2 and more associates schemes, physio, PBT, conditioning not hot housing then I’m not sure what it is. Last year seemed extra transparent, with the same kids being posted by various schools and teachers. There have been some interesting comments where you can sense the tension between teachers and schools commenting on the same posts. I can only imagine how awkward it must be when everyone wants credit. It’s easy to know how much privates and class fees and studio costs are - all added up, I am astounded at how much it must all cost. On the upside, if parents can afford such expense then maybe they don’t need significant MDS funding, if any, once in vocational school. 

1 hour ago, NotadanceMa said:

😊 I’m going to smile and nod because I know however I’m desperate to keep the thread going and the discussion under control.

And yes the ballet world is very small and I know the answers to many of the questions you posit. I know though on the forum it has to be firsthand experience, so for my child it was a bit of luck and an MDS. Without this ballet would have exited our lives stage left.

 

It is however a double-edged sword in so many ways, we still cannot compete with level of training their peers receive outside vocational or attend the intensives, so the hothousing continues even inside the system. My child is absolutely exhausted evenings, weekends and holidays and their body and brain cannot keep on training, neither does it want to. They are a slow burner, talented but finding it difficult to compete in a way. I find the whole thing really odd. Why is full-time vocational training not enough?
 

I admit for the first time ever I arranged for them to have a couple of privates with our lovely Emma Northmore in August who has known them since they were 10 and at Ballet Boost. (It’s not an advert for Emma, but for the purpose of transparency I prefer to say who)

She gives such positive constructive feedback and is upbeat and kind, which I think is lacking in some of the teaching approaches my child has experienced. Also she knows how my child learns and they would not have gotten to where they are now without support from her. She gave child a bursary and a scholarship place at ABA when we struggled to continue because of financial difficulties. She has a bit of my child’s heart always and mine. 
 

If the hothousing system becomes the norm and it seems to be, there will be no such thing as raw talent anymore entering an audition.

 

A poster said previously about young international children doing perfect multiple pirouettes. I’m not sure that’s how I want things to be when children are young and at the beginning.
 

I miss just attending our local school hall classes everything felt so much more straightforward then.

 

 

 

 

Oh I know exactly what you mean about local school hall classes. My DD still attends one class with her local dance school she’s been since she was 5. It’s not a ballet class and how she loves it. It’s just a fun, nurturing environment, everyone is just there because they love dance and find it fun, they’re not there to be professionals in the future or because they’re preparing for auditions. It reminds her of the days when it was just pure fun, no drama, no competition, no possible upsets. 

4 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I agree the ballet world has changed dramatically since my child started in it Y6 JA’s 2017. I remember hearing about private lessons and coaches and attending alsorts of intensives and workshops; but now it’s like things have exploded.

No one that we knew had private coaching or extra for their vocational school auditions back then; last year a new Y6 mum we met along the way said it feels like the odd one out if you’re child is not. 

 

There was a heated discussion on here last year because members auditioning for WL had professional teachers and coaches for the children’s audition. 
 

It does seem like the ballet world has really clearly divided into two parts; hothousing 🆚 what now feels like the old fashioned way. 😁

Money plays a significant part in these choices, so many parents like me can’t hothouse; would I hothouse my child if they had been identified as talented with potential and I thought could cope with this type of training??? I think I just might. 
 

I feel Covid has also changed my outlook on ballet training and opportunities that I might once have considered pursuing.

I still think Covid is changing the dance landscape as it hasn’t finished with us yet. If it makes me more cautious and wary then I’m sure that companies are now having to make space for things to be different.

 

It definitely has although I know this always causes animated debate on this forum. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind this is true, more for certain school(s) and I also need to point out that this difference isn’t as defined when talking about boys and girls. Boys I believe still have a bigger chance of offers on mostly potential especially at a young age. It is also important to point out that even in the top schools, the distinction you mentioned is more glaring in certain school(s). We have witnessed this first hand. I bet there can be interesting  demographics that can be gleaned to support the difference you note. Check where most of the most recent cohort comes from, even geographically. Check where most of those who weren’t offered another year’s training come from.  How significant MDS funding did those offered a place were eligible for. How much training did they receive immediately prior to their offer. Again, I think this discussion of differences is more applicable to females.

11 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

So the new programme started in Sep 21, all existing students moved onto the new programme regardless of where they were in the old programme. The old programme ceased to exist. 

 

So the current year 9's were not assessed out (this has been made very clear by the school), they "graduate" from the foundation programme tomorrow. The ones leaving sadly do not have a place on the pre development programme which starts in year 10. This year 9 group have been the guinea pigs for the new structure. 

 

Does that help? 

 

I believe that the new year 7's that started in sep 21 have had it made very clear that they are only there for three years. 

 

I thought that was the case and was therefore surprised when a previous poster mentioned it was only from the current Year 7s that this new programme commenced. 

38 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

It’s called a Developmental Training Program.

 

I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.

High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is. 
 

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.

In that case, I might be in the minority here but I find it hard to think of Y7-Y9 as not vocational rebranded under a new name. After all, isn’t RBS a vocational school and its JA programme perhaps the pre-vocational (non-full time) scheme? I’m pretty sure I’ve also seen dance schools post about their students who will be starting vocational school in September. 

19 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

It’s called a Developmental Training Program.

 

I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.

High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is. 
 

I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌

 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.

Aren’t the current Y9s the first to be under that new set-up? In which case someone on this forum had previously mentioned that about half of the girls were not offered a Y10 place and of those staying, only 2 are British. I could be wrong but I seem to recall reading this on another thread, perhaps the one that was locked. I’ve heard of the numbers for Y11 too but would be hesitant to put on here as it’s been pointed out in the past that I don’t have a child who’s gone to that school plus this thread might get locked if it gets too specific. 

22 minutes ago, Kanangra said:

Even the overseas student fees in European schools are much cheaper than the UK or just about anywhere really. They are definitely a good option if you are accepted. The tuition is usually in English, though I am sure it is advantageous for students to learn the local language. We know students who went to Germany (Mannheim and Palucca) and that was their experience.

This is what we found too, even after Brexit when British students were categorised under international fees. We certainly looked at schools like Dutch NBA, BTB Basel and TAZ Zurich. Even APG in Monaco worked out cheaper than full fees of some U.K. vocational schools. And all the schools we looked at would still have less fees even if we factor in possible MDS funding. 

The new system I remember was met with mixed reaction.  Most thought it was just a change of name of the levels but it does make it clear what can happen in Years 9 and 2nd year upper.  I do still think of it as full time vocational training from Year 7, I suppose it’s hard not to. I also noticed a big spike in “pre-vocational” branded training schemes run by various local dance schools in the last few years precisely aimed at children and parents who wish to get targeted training to prepare them for Year 7 auditions. It’s a very different arrangement and feel to say, Paris Opera Ballet School’s Stage 6 or the first few levels of Dutch NBA. Especially for the latter it doesn’t feel like full time vocational training as such because the students still live at home, not boarders and away from their families. I remember receiving a registration packet for the local academic school where the younger Dutch NBA students attend. Academics were done separately from dance training so the kids were still very much a daily part of their community, doing activities and schooling away from their training. 

1 minute ago, BalletBoysDad said:

If, for example, we were discussing the National Ballet School in Canada, where their summer programme can lead to/function as audition time the main school…. Their annual fees are, off the top of my head, pretty much the same as RBS full boarding fees. I think the fees for the Australian Ballet are much the same: I don’t know, because I genuinely haven’t done the research, if there is any government scheme or grant similar to MDS that covers international fees. If there isn’t, it means that these schools are only for those who can afford £3-4K a month in fees and modest living costs. 

The school I had in mind is in Europe and has cheaper fees than the RBS. 

23 minutes ago, BalletBoysDad said:

I completely agree.  Our education system totally lets down our young people with languages.  WAY OFF TOPIC HERE, but I am sure Brexit will hardly encourage further government investment in European languages from a young age, especially with barriers to freedom of movement etc....

 

I'm always amazed by the level of language proficiency (frequently more than 2 languages) in other countries at such a young age.  Having spent time living in China and Hong Kong, I have seen first hand many young children and teenagers perfectly equipped with language proficiency to explore educational opportunities abroad in 2nd languages from quite a young age. There is also the added consideration that the language proficiency isn't just to 'get by' academically, its also to be able social integrate and 'live' in the host country.  A young UK student living in (eg) Russia might 'just about get by' in the dance studio, but living in the country would be extremely challenging, and the academics would be nigh-on impossible.  That would be very different for a Russian with even moderate English language proficiency coming to the UK...

 

That's why I raised the point that RBS must get an overwhelming amount of international applicants due to tuition in English, that sees a world-class training centre attract world-class talent.  Yes, I completely get that IF its world-class, the training on offer from the younger ages (for example, WL entry in Y7) should benefit domestic students to a much greater statistical extent going into Y10 and upper school than it currently does. 

 

I'm not even sure this information is available, but it would be fascinating to know the domestic-to-international applicant ratio for a number of the world's most 'known schools' and I have a feeling it would shed light on why a domestic UK student has an increasingly challenging job gaining upper school entry to English schools.

Language may be part of it admittedly but willingness is a big factor too. I used to work in a place that ran an exchange programme - students from overseas study in the U.K. for a term or two, U.K. students are sent overseas in exchange. Every year we were inundated with applications from students wanting to study in the U.K. temporarily even those with the minimum English proficiently requirement. We almost had to pay British students to go overseas even to countries known to speak English. We always wondered why. I grew up in a country where most people grow up bilingual so it was never an issue to go overseas, and most people I know have been placed in situations where they go and study somewhere where they don’t know the local language. Perhaps students should also explore schools beyond borders. However, it’s probably rarer to find U.K. students in upper schools overseas than vice versa. For example, I know of a highly rated vocational school overseas which only ever had one British student as far as I know (not RBS trained at any point). And yet every year British students, both from full time vocational schools here and non full time apply for that school’s summer intensive which is know to be an audition for their full time programme in itself.  So far, I haven’t seen anyone get through to their full time programme. Language barrier isn’t a problem - they have a lot of American students.

3 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Just out of curiosity… have you had a child attend the school? 

No, I do not but that does not mean I can’t have my own opinion same as a good number of posters on this forum - the same way you have your opinion about the harsher practices of Vaganova and POBS. 

2 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

And RBS are very clear by telling new parents that if their child is assessed out in year 9 it definitely doesn’t mean and end to career in ballet ! I’ve listened to this being said in a meeting . It means they just aren’t right for their pathway anymore for whatever reason.. physique, strength , artistry etc. They also never suggest their way is the only way either. 
 

I think you’ll find Paris Opera and Vaganova have their own system of assessing out and is far harsh.. we just don’t hear about it on this forum.

Did you know that when you audition for Paris Opera ballet they stick the results to the front of their gate for the whole world to see???  Hmmmm that stoops low in my eyes… far lower than RBS 

I’m not sure why that stoops low? Presumably they only post those who get through to finals or those who get a place. I don’t think they name and shame those who don’t make it? 
 

Of course every vocational school would have their version of assessing out. What constitutes as “harsher”?  My point simply is that it would be hard to pinpoint RBS training if for example those who are in their upper school are mostly not trained by them from a young age. In addition, I think statistically if you look at those who complete their training in those two schools you mentioned, there will be a higher percentage of French or Russian students who have been trained by the schools for several years and progressing through their programme through to completion. 
 

I also think, and happy to be proven wrong, that often when matters like this are discussed here, it is usually slightly different between males and females. It is not sexism in any way but just by law of averages and reality is, there are more females vying for places in full time schools for basically the same number of places as males. Again, happy to be proven wrong, but if I were to hazard a guess, it is often also the case that more females are assessed out than males.