Neverdancedjustamum

The new system I remember was met with mixed reaction.  Most thought it was just a change of name of the levels but it does make it clear what can happen in Years 9 and 2nd year upper.  I do still think of it as full time vocational training from Year 7, I suppose it’s hard not to. I also noticed a big spike in “pre-vocational” branded training schemes run by various local dance schools in the last few years precisely aimed at children and parents who wish to get targeted training to prepare them for Year 7 auditions. It’s a very different arrangement and feel to say, Paris Opera Ballet School’s Stage 6 or the first few levels of Dutch NBA. Especially for the latter it doesn’t feel like full time vocational training as such because the students still live at home, not boarders and away from their families. I remember receiving a registration packet for the local academic school where the younger Dutch NBA students attend. Academics were done separately from dance training so the kids were still very much a daily part of their community, doing activities and schooling away from their training. 

1 minute ago, BalletBoysDad said:

If, for example, we were discussing the National Ballet School in Canada, where their summer programme can lead to/function as audition time the main school…. Their annual fees are, off the top of my head, pretty much the same as RBS full boarding fees. I think the fees for the Australian Ballet are much the same: I don’t know, because I genuinely haven’t done the research, if there is any government scheme or grant similar to MDS that covers international fees. If there isn’t, it means that these schools are only for those who can afford £3-4K a month in fees and modest living costs. 

The school I had in mind is in Europe and has cheaper fees than the RBS. 

23 minutes ago, BalletBoysDad said:

I completely agree.  Our education system totally lets down our young people with languages.  WAY OFF TOPIC HERE, but I am sure Brexit will hardly encourage further government investment in European languages from a young age, especially with barriers to freedom of movement etc....

 

I'm always amazed by the level of language proficiency (frequently more than 2 languages) in other countries at such a young age.  Having spent time living in China and Hong Kong, I have seen first hand many young children and teenagers perfectly equipped with language proficiency to explore educational opportunities abroad in 2nd languages from quite a young age. There is also the added consideration that the language proficiency isn't just to 'get by' academically, its also to be able social integrate and 'live' in the host country.  A young UK student living in (eg) Russia might 'just about get by' in the dance studio, but living in the country would be extremely challenging, and the academics would be nigh-on impossible.  That would be very different for a Russian with even moderate English language proficiency coming to the UK...

 

That's why I raised the point that RBS must get an overwhelming amount of international applicants due to tuition in English, that sees a world-class training centre attract world-class talent.  Yes, I completely get that IF its world-class, the training on offer from the younger ages (for example, WL entry in Y7) should benefit domestic students to a much greater statistical extent going into Y10 and upper school than it currently does. 

 

I'm not even sure this information is available, but it would be fascinating to know the domestic-to-international applicant ratio for a number of the world's most 'known schools' and I have a feeling it would shed light on why a domestic UK student has an increasingly challenging job gaining upper school entry to English schools.

Language may be part of it admittedly but willingness is a big factor too. I used to work in a place that ran an exchange programme - students from overseas study in the U.K. for a term or two, U.K. students are sent overseas in exchange. Every year we were inundated with applications from students wanting to study in the U.K. temporarily even those with the minimum English proficiently requirement. We almost had to pay British students to go overseas even to countries known to speak English. We always wondered why. I grew up in a country where most people grow up bilingual so it was never an issue to go overseas, and most people I know have been placed in situations where they go and study somewhere where they don’t know the local language. Perhaps students should also explore schools beyond borders. However, it’s probably rarer to find U.K. students in upper schools overseas than vice versa. For example, I know of a highly rated vocational school overseas which only ever had one British student as far as I know (not RBS trained at any point). And yet every year British students, both from full time vocational schools here and non full time apply for that school’s summer intensive which is know to be an audition for their full time programme in itself.  So far, I haven’t seen anyone get through to their full time programme. Language barrier isn’t a problem - they have a lot of American students.

3 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

Just out of curiosity… have you had a child attend the school? 

No, I do not but that does not mean I can’t have my own opinion same as a good number of posters on this forum - the same way you have your opinion about the harsher practices of Vaganova and POBS. 

2 minutes ago, The red shoes said:

And RBS are very clear by telling new parents that if their child is assessed out in year 9 it definitely doesn’t mean and end to career in ballet ! I’ve listened to this being said in a meeting . It means they just aren’t right for their pathway anymore for whatever reason.. physique, strength , artistry etc. They also never suggest their way is the only way either. 
 

I think you’ll find Paris Opera and Vaganova have their own system of assessing out and is far harsh.. we just don’t hear about it on this forum.

Did you know that when you audition for Paris Opera ballet they stick the results to the front of their gate for the whole world to see???  Hmmmm that stoops low in my eyes… far lower than RBS 

I’m not sure why that stoops low? Presumably they only post those who get through to finals or those who get a place. I don’t think they name and shame those who don’t make it? 
 

Of course every vocational school would have their version of assessing out. What constitutes as “harsher”?  My point simply is that it would be hard to pinpoint RBS training if for example those who are in their upper school are mostly not trained by them from a young age. In addition, I think statistically if you look at those who complete their training in those two schools you mentioned, there will be a higher percentage of French or Russian students who have been trained by the schools for several years and progressing through their programme through to completion. 
 

I also think, and happy to be proven wrong, that often when matters like this are discussed here, it is usually slightly different between males and females. It is not sexism in any way but just by law of averages and reality is, there are more females vying for places in full time schools for basically the same number of places as males. Again, happy to be proven wrong, but if I were to hazard a guess, it is often also the case that more females are assessed out than males. 

1 hour ago, Kate_N said:

 

Different training styles suit different people. The British style is to work very slowly and steadily to create a clean pure technique. This shows in RBS trained dancers. And it's observably different from other national schools.

 

I don't think it's reasonable to deduce that on the basis of 1 young pupil's point of view & experience, the RBS is not a world-class ballet training school.

I’m not sure I would be able to pick out RBS trained dancers, for example, in an international summer intensive. Similarly, I don’t think I’ll be able to pick out RBS trained dancers in companies here or overseas unless I read the dancers’ profiles. But I don’t really know much and haven’t seen much and definitely don’t have dance training.  Perhaps this is why. I believe RBS has a world-class reputation, and is definitely one of the most recognisable names in terms of vocational schools. I do think that being assessed out should not end these young dancers’ journeys as the school isn’t the only route to a dance career. It may have a world class reputation but recently, those who complete their training (third year upper) and go on to various companies are increasingly not trained by the school from Year 7. It can be argued that this is the same for other schools but I think that possibly institutions such as Paris Opera Ballet School, Vaganova and Dutch probably have a bigger percentage of “home grown” talents progressing through the years in the same school. 

7 hours ago, capybara said:

There is now an apron where the seats used to start and all the seats are 'furniture' (dining chairs; antique style armchairs etc) - all very uncomfortable and  further from the stage than before. The front rows in the centre have little round tables on which to put drinks, so there is some distance between the rows. However, I had an armchair with a high back blocking my view. The capacity is much reduced and it's now difficult to see the dancers' feet from the first three rows.

I'm surprised that regulations allow all that casual seating. If there was an emergency, people and chairs would all fall over together.

 

As to the show, the first two nights have been as follows (all Upper School except for **)

Raymonda Act 3

Insignia (Student piece)

Sylphide Reel **

Presentient (McGregor)

Moments (Tonga)

Swan Lake Pas de Douze

Eccentric Pulses (student piece)

Yonderling (Neimeier)

 

As to student destinations, there is a list of 25 out of the 27 Pre-Professional students with a statement congratulating them. Five students will become Aud Jebsen Young Dancers with the RB and 5 will be members of BRB's Junior Company (whose existence I didn't know about). Other graduates also, in the maintain, have apprentice-type contracts. They have done well in what are incredibly difficult times in the industry.

Is that graduate destination list in the programme, @capybara?  I remember a few years ago we watched the summer performance at OHP and there was also a list of all students involved in the show at the back. Those who were previously associates of the RBS were marked with a * next to their names and I remember my DD and I noticing that the number of previous associates (I assume this included JA/MA/SA, mostly former JAs presumably) declined as the years went up - ie nearly all at Year 7, nearly none by the last years of upper school.  Interesting also about the 25/27 graduates announced. I always assumed RBS had a 100% graduate success rate in terms of going on to various companies/junior companies. I wonder if that that means the other 2 explored other things, non-ballet related or even maybe uni?

It must be similar to MA1 then. I didn’t check for holiday dates yet but immediately noticed the number of sessions per term was vastly different. Autumn term has 14 sessions, spring 10 and summer 8.  So autumn term has nearly double the sessions of summer and yes it does finish early June.

7 hours ago, valentina said:

 
It's a complex picture. The teachers we most respect are those who respect their pupils. Who are prepared to put themselves OUT of the picture and coach their students according to their student's potential both physically and mentally. To fully and completely understand the students mental and physical state and to take time to nurture their talents. The success of a student gaining a place at vocational school is their pupil's success! It is a small step in that students forwardly direction, if that's the direction they've chosen ( and there are many!) Making the mark of success an acceptance at a particular school would be appear a little naive and foolish given what we know of particular vocational schools. Would that same student be accepted at Paris Opera? Vaganova? SAB? San Francisco?  It's is a small step in a positive direction if that is the direction you have chosen and of course there should be a celebration that someone thinks you are worthy at that particular moment in time or indeed, see you have potential. Of course your teacher is proud of you! However, there are slow burning students who don't peak until age 19, who don't follow the social rules of instagram and who don't necessarily look that appealing at 11 yrs. And suddenly it's the story of the tortoise and the hare. One has fallen by the wayside where the other is overtaking. It's that trust of the coach to believe in their student, to follow through with quiet persistence rather than clock up how many students are accepted to a particular school. It's a tricky and complicated picture made more so by social media.

 

Well said, Valentina, I can’t agree more. Social media has made everything trickier but also in a way, more transparent for some. It’s easier to gauge which schools and teachers appear to be more preoccupied with counting immediate “successes”.  I remember last year being surprised that a lot of successes posted by schools and teachers were posted by multiple other schools and teachers. Sadly, it’s so easy to be tempted by schools who advertise a lot of statistics about students who get into full time training and yet it’s hard to gauge how many of these numbers were actually their home grown students complemented perhaps by other teachers/training and how many maybe only attended a weekly online session. The possible slow burners I find are often cast aside and ignored because they can’t be posted as a success within the next few months/year and therefore a bit useless in terms of marketing and advertisement. I always found this odd because even from a business point of view, surely these students should not fall on the wayside because they’re the ones who will be enrolled for longer with the school or teacher as they don’t intend to try for full time asap. Business-wise, they’re longer term income. Additionally, a lot would argue that entry at full time vocational school in the higher years is trickier because of competition from current full timers AND internationals. Surely those students who don’t want to go full time in the lower years and are nurtured and trained in a steady pace would be considered quite the success by a teacher if they gain a place later on at age 15/16 after being trained by them. I find that often there is a short sightedness when it comes to measuring success, to the detriment of those who could be possible slow burners. And the sad thing of course is that once ignored/not nurtured, these possible successes eventually lose interest or the love for dancing because they aren’t nurtured and focused on as much as their peers. Sometimes these students are deemed not focused or determined enough simply because they are not interested  in going full time immediately. And yet these are the kids who have extra hard to juggle full time “normal school” with dance classes. I am always more impressed by teachers and schools who don’t mind working in the background, happy to nurture those who don’t want to go full time asap, willing to work with other teachers and always had the best interests of the student at heart. These are teachers who are brilliant at teaching students of varying personalities too and not trying to box them all into the same personality/working style they prefer. 

42 minutes ago, Sim said:

So is most of the student population of the Royal Ballet School from rich, privileged backgrounds?  Wow, I never knew that.  

I suspect this question would raise very interesting discussions.  I think RBS prides itself in funding those in need. The question obviously is whether you need to be from certain means these days to even be offered a place there. Most private schools would release high level stats of how many students receiving some sort of funding (ie “90% of our student body receive funding”) but they won’t go into the granular detail of how much funding that is. For example, the MDS calculator would show that for a household with a total income of £190k a year with one other dependent child, the child going to vocational school would be eligible for approx £1800 MDS grant per annum as a boarder. Am I correct in thinking that this means that student would fall within the % who are “funded” despite being from a £190k income household? Apologies if I misunderstood the calculations but that’s how I see it and could be wrong.  And would a £190k income household be considered privileged?  I certainly know of numerous children who go to full time vocational schools already having attended private schools in the past and having extremely rigorous and extensive training prior to auditioning. I am not sure if this will count as rich and privileged but I highly doubt that it will be equal chances for a WL place between someone from a low-income family who can only afford a couple of ballet classes a week and one who can afford multiple classes, associate schemes, privates, physio, PBT, summer intensives…I would love to be proven wrong but kids in the former  situation I believe would be the exception rather than the norm these days.

31 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

However money and privilege does alter outcomes, create choices, and make other options possible.

£30 kind of reinforces for me the point about money and privilege. Who is the target audience?

 

 

I understand about prices being set and hardcover books being pricier but I’m with you on this one. It was hard for me to part with £30 for a single book. I often buy books on sale on Kindle or those on offer at Waterstone’s. Sometimes I do purchase hard bound books but I don’t recall them being this price unless it’s those bigger coffee table books. But as I said, I don’t really buy a lot of hardcover books. 

13 minutes ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

My husband would kill me if I spent £30 on a book about ballet having spent over the best part of £100,00 on it 🤣

I reckon mine would as well - he doesn’t even know how much leotards cost 🤫

7 minutes ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

Aghhh it’s £30 😳

I know 😪 it was a moment of madness. I could have bought about 4 paperback books at Waterstone’s. Determined to lend it out to as many people as possible for that price…

I too found this book a very good read. I must admit it was quite pricey but the autographed copy they had on display at Bloch proved to be too tempting to refuse on a Saturday in Covent Garden when I forgot my Kindle and had 2 hours to kill. 
 

It focused on her viewpoint as a mum but contained all the bits that no doubt other mums would be interested in - that is, Yasmine’s dance journey to principal. 
 

However, a few things came to mind as I read this book:

- this is written from the view point of someone whose child “made it”. Which is fair because I guess books written by a mum whose DC didn’t make it wouldn’t sell.  So in a way, those tears ended in triumph. It is a story that provides inspiration and aspiration. Like a movie almost but one must keep in mind that her story is likely to be the exception. 

- I often wondered how the author had the time to do proper research and explore things related to dancing, from history to nutrition, etc. I barely have enough time in the day to squeeze in work, spend time with kids, do house chores etc. 

- It is evident that they had the means to support a well rounded dance education from the start. They were London-based so it was easy to travel to and from school. I believe the children were privately educated even prior to one of them entering WL. The book mentions a trip to Prague for summer school and last minute flights overseas. This is not financially viable for a lot of dance families. 
 

The above points don’t deter from the fact that it is a good and entertaining read. It appears to be well researched and well written. I’ve already passed on my copy to a friend.  I must admit this is the first and only dance-related book I have read. 

51 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

Could you explain to her that you're going to take it step-by-step, and allowing her to audition is not a guarantee she'll be able to attend.

 

Would it also be possible to look at other vocational schools? ENB, Central (although I think that's for older children) Tring, Hammond, Kate Simmonds - and many more (do a search here) or a stronger after-school programmes (might require more driving?)

 

Having options & choices is good. I think White Lodge and the RBS gets romanticised as it's often the only ballet school people have heard of. It all becomes a bit Noel Streatfeild.

I think it’s harder for JAs to not audition because the whole programme I suppose was created to almost act as a feeder programme to the full time school many years ago. I heard that the earlier part of the Year 6 JA programme is all geared towards preparing them to audition for WL. I say “I heard” because we don’t have experience of this - my DD was never a JA. Once they’re inside the programme, I can imagine the goal would be WL. To be honest, even at MA I guess this doesn’t disappear completely - especially those who read Sabine Naghdi’s book and learned that Yasmine was “discovered” when she was an MA and was eventually offered a WL place because of it. I say this in jest but I suppose this has occurred to more than a few.  I know so many parents who are well aware of the issues and concerns discussed on this thread but would still jump at the chance to let their DCs attend if offered. I think this is why over the last 3-4 years I remember those who were offered a place but turned it down. It’s so rare and pretty much unheard of that I remember them more than those who (predictably) accept a place.  I can understand why it gets romaticised. Just look at dance schools’ social media posts. RBS-related successes are quite clearly prioritised and are always “centre stage”. I’ve heard of dance schools where teachers still regularly speak about former students who have gone on to WL, sometimes inadvertently affecting the morale and confidence of current students who  regularly subconsciously remember they “didn’t make it”, not like their peers who are now at WL. I’ve heard of schools which would only support applications to RBS associate schemes, other schemes being deemed not important enough. The list goes on.

18 hours ago, valentina said:

My advice is to find yourself an incredible couple of teachers who will nurture and work as a mature partnership with your son or daughter daughter at the very highest level. Giving them as much as they give. And with mutual respect at the heart of everything. It's perfectly possible to do but not at all easy. There are lots of wonderful teachers out there who can replicate that training with lots of planning to add in pas de deux, Pilates, Contemporary, Strength and Conditioning etc. but you will need money, and pots of it! 
Its a gamble... and you may be one of the lucky ones who incurs no issues at school. You may sail through and have a very rewarding experience as many do. The training is incredibly tough but amazing if you can cope and are lucky to be seen positively by the teacher.

I am all for this 100%. I must add as well that when looking for teachers/coaches/schools outside full time vocational school, be extremely wary of those that advertise too much on social media and post the same students over and over again. This rings warning bells for me immediately. Over the years I’ve found out that the happiest students I’ve met are taught by teachers who don’t seek credit, who are willing to work hand in hand with other teachers, and who have the student’s best interests at heart. These are the same teachers who you’d have to look harder for as they’re barely in the public domain. These teachers I find are those who actually have brilliant track records of successful students and yet they don’t advertise it. They are willing to work towards long-term goals, are able to tell whether the ballet dream is actually the student’s and not the parents, don’t seek immediate successes for the purposes of social media advertisement, and are brilliant at adapting to students’ different learning styles and personalities. These are also the teachers who don’t seem to have favourites as such. You’ll have to “research” these teachers more as they’re not out there as much but they are worth it. 

36 minutes ago, Tippytoes17 said:

Apologies if this is a simply answered question or has been answered before but why do international

students only end up joining the school later in the school in higher years and not in year 7? Is it only in the uk that vocational full time training starts then that requires students to leave home or is it just as simple as it being that international students don’t apply until later stages for some reason?

It may be the case that it’s harder for parents to let their children board at age 11/12 especially when they’re based overseas and are miles away. Personally, I can’t even imagine having my own DCs away from home at that age (even if it’s just during the week) but I know this is a very personal choice. I imagine for families who are overseas, that’s an even harder decision. The older they are, the more mature they are about living on their own and I also think that the more mature they are, they’re more certain that’s actually what they went to pursue. I didn’t know what I really wanted to be at age 18, so kudos to those 11/12 year olds who are passionate enough to know what they really want and are willing to be away from their families and homes  at such young ages.  I know in a lot of countries too that at that age, academics isn’t done within their dance schools so they’re either home schooled or go to school near their dance school so there’s no need to board as such. 

Sadly, despite this process being well known and the stats quite clear to see, I can’t see anything changing. I know parents who know all this and yet would still jump at the chance should their child get offered a place. Ultimately, I guess for most it’s too big a name to turn down and most would say it’s been their child’s dream since they could walk or that they can’t let their child miss an opportunity (better to have tried, no regrets, etc). For example every year I know a lot pay the application fees, save on other family  expenses, just so their DCs can attend summer intensives there because they know there is the chance their DC might get spotted and be offered a full time place. In any case, it’s the family’s choice and I can understand why it would be very challenging to turn down such an opportunity. 

Has everyone received the emails regarding the new uniform and the online conditioning classes? 

4 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Thanks for the above (though not too sure I fully understood as am not 100% up on the whole uni application & funding processes!). I think that some dance degrees (thinking LSC & others) charge a far higher rate than the £9250 for tuition & thus loans would not cover that amount requiring additional (parental or other) top up....was wondering if this could become the case for Central but sounds as though not from your post?

I wouldn’t have thought so if Central is registered as Approved (Fee Cap). The OfS register has them as a Higher Fee limit institution which means they can charge up to £9000 or £9250 (depending on whether they have a TEF award). Some institutions have a basic fee limit (up to £6000 or £6165) and some have no fee limit (usually private providers). LSC is registered with the OfS but is down as “no fee limit” which is why they can charge higher fees.

4 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Thanks for the above (though not too sure I fully understood as am not 100% up on the whole uni application & funding processes!). I think that some dance degrees (thinking LSC & others) charge a far higher rate than the £9250 for tuition & thus loans would not cover that amount requiring additional (parental or other) top up....was wondering if this could become the case for Central but sounds as though not from your post?

I wouldn’t have thought so if Central is registered as Approved (Fee Cap). The OfS register has them as a Higher Fee limit institution which means they can charge up to £9000 or £9250 (depending on whether they have a TEF award). Some institutions have a basic fee limit (up to £6000 or £6165) and some have no fee limit (usually private providers). LSC is registered with the OfS but is down as “no fee limit” which is why they can charge higher fees.

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

Seeing the mention above of central ‘going independent’ does that mean it will become its own degree validating body? Will that applications via UCAS & so eligible for full student loan & capped fees (isn’t it that now?) or will it be the opposite whereby they can charge higher fees but with lower official student loan rates available? 

I think it just means that they are now Office for Students registered in their own right. Approved (fee cap) means they can access public funding and grants but fees are capped (normally I think £9250 currently is the higher statutory fee limit for universities, but depends on their quality rating and fee limits as agreed and part of their Access and Participation plan). Their degree will still need to be validated by an awarding body (such as a university - I think theirs is Kent) until they get their degree awarding powers (TDAP). Their being OfS-registered may also have implications on the number of students they can return to HESA, drafting their own Access and Participation plans etc etc.  As far as I know, they can opt to have their applications directly on UCAS or they can have them via their awarding body. It depends on the nature of their collaborative relationship with  their awarding body - it will determine which institution will draw down fees from SLC/SFE for their students. 

45 minutes ago, KindleK said:

Hi has anyone applied for student finance for Central and if so what university do we put in as Central doesn’t seem to come up??

I think Central is validated by Kent, could be them? No personal experience though so I’m not sure how it works.

10 minutes ago, Astrid said:

we just had an email about new associate uniform 😃 I’m always psyched by a new bit of kit 🙈 I also wish we could know the times of the online classes (although sadly don’t think we can do either)..

Yes! Much excitement in our house because of that email too. I’m still not sure what the new MA uniform looks like, I think the one on the photo will be for either SA or AA. Still no word on timings of the online class. I’m also worried we can’t do either. I guess the tracksuit will stay the same? Although my DD tends not to wear it anymore especially when the weather is hot.

On 21/06/2022 at 08:54, Fairydust said:

@MissEmilycan I ask how you got the feedback from WL audition please? My DD was at year 7 finals this year due to start London MAs in September.  I'd love to get some feedback but didn't think this was possible? 

I’m not sure about WL auditions, but certainly for Associate auditions RBS is willing to provide feedback but I believe it’s only to teachers - not parents. And certainly for Associates, they would only give feedback to the teacher actually named on the application form (as some people with multiple teachers found out!).