Neverdancedjustamum

13 minutes ago, Angela said:

 

Or maybe the students already have a job at the Royal Ballet and don't need the stress to do a competition.

I am not sure of the numbers in the last few years but I wouldn’t think it would suggest this. There are actually whole discussions on this forum I believe on how it’s otherwise. I did spot a few finalists and scholarship recipients who look very much like the ‘type’ RBS would offer places to (based on previous years) but often these are the same ones who other schools offer places to as well so it would be interesting to see where these young dancers choose to go. 

2 hours ago, expatballetmom said:

Thank you for the insight! I suppose it's similar to any major pre-prof ballet school! Just curious are the numbers similar in the associates schemes? Do they also get assessed out along the way? 

I can only speak for one centre, but yes, they do ‘assess’ out at MA level. For years the word on the street is that they don’t, but they definitely do. The important thing to keep in mind is that it really is not the end of the world if they aren’t offered another year of training. We have known young dancers who left of their own accord or ‘assessed out’ but are doing amazingly well and I truly believe some of these dancers will fare better (in some way or another) in the long run. Some might actually think that if you’re aiming at auditioning for a later year (not Year 7), there are pros to not being ‘in the system’ beforehand. 

42 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Many thanks Neverdancedjustamum!! 
It’s great that they have the photos as well ….as before have only just seen the candidates names next to the numbers. 
 

Yes, I thought that as well. Really enjoying watching the PdL this year. What an amazing group of young dancers.

19 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Is there anywhere which lists the candidates names and their numbers now it has started? 

7 hours ago, DD Driver said:

It begins...

Saw an Australian ballet school posting about a student just receiving an invitation to the RBS Upper School Finals in early March.

I have seen quite a few already - also from Australia, for White Lodge. There have also been quite a few YAGP finalists who did their short term scholarships (one can only assume this is some sort of audition too) at RBS then were off to Cranko the week after…

2 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

There are so many influences across the world between companies & schools that it is impossible to rigidly categorise them. Directors of the POB school are always former dancers with the company. However, the company has had many choreographers and directors from elsewhere. Alicia Alonso mounted Giselle and Sleeping Beauty in the 1970s and of course Nureyev was Director from 1983 to 1989, both from Vaganova training. 

That’s true, especially at company level but also perhaps the last 1-2 years of training. However, I always found younger students of the Vaganova and POBS quite distinctive in their style and overall look. Perhaps this is because, particularly for the first 5 or so years, students of those schools are predominately from that country (hence probably trained in the same particular way even before they started at the school) and their entry requirements seem more rigid and exacting (less variation in heights, for example).

42 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I had a teacher who emphasised that dancing starts at the barre and is right at the beginning of any training. His idea seemed to be that you don’t just plod away for years and then expect the “Dance” to suddenly appear miraculously later on! So you danced the barre as well as used for that extra support when acquiring sound technique. He was a bit Russian, a bit French and a bit Cecchetti somehow. 


 

I find that in YAGP and PdL masterclasses I’ve seen, those who make barre work look like a performance stood out and were immediately noticeable. It truly is lovely to watch barre work that flows, rather than ‘stop/start’, if that makes sense.  I have seen some teachers and coaches who have a knack for putting together the most exquisite barre work combinations, such a refreshing change from the more tedious repetitive barre exercises I have seen in class. I know there is a lot of repetition involved in class but from the point of view of someone who’s never danced, I can immediately see which teachers’ classes I love watching as an outside observer with no dance background whatsoever. PdL classes are always a joy to watch, in particular Elisabeth Platel’s.

43 minutes ago, DD Driver said:

Sorry - I'm saying they are Classical in the POB style.  Not better or worse, just different.

Sounds like it is negligible in your experience.  In terms of training, my DD has done summer schools with Vaganova (& Bolshoi) teachers as well as RBS.  She found them different.  

 

Interesting question, though.  How training, for example, from John Cranko v. POB v. RBS differ(?)

I was speaking (separately) to a couple of dancers who between them have experience of both vocational school training and company work in top schools and companies in France, Russia, North America and the U.K. (including RBS) and both have mentioned to me and my DD, several times in the context of training and technique, that there are marked difference in the emphasis and focus of the training across countries and styles. Particular schools would tell you to “whack your leg up as high as possible” and some schools would be almost obsessively into the details (precise placement of even the eye line and every finger), some schools make even barre work look like a performance, some would focus on strength and dynamics. The feeling I get from both is that personally, they preferred and enjoyed the French style the most but these are personal preferences from two dancers fortunate enough to experience such vast array of techniques, schools and companies.

15 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I have always struggled with this sentiment. From the off a ‘no’ has always been a ‘no’ for my child. Of course they can try again and it might be a ‘yes.’ It’s tough out there for our children.

 

‘Not yet’ is emotionally confusing to me and it does not allow for closure to that particular path choice at that time.

I get that it softens the rejection and reframes it as something else, and even helps the parent bear the brutality of the process, but it’s not for me.

 

I agree with you. I’ve never told and never will tell my DCs that a no could be a ‘not yet’. A ‘no’ is a no for a reason and they will get a lot of ‘nos’ in their lifetime but that’s how it is and it’s their own risk to take should they wish to pursue something repeatedly.  I would never want them to overthink things (I do that for them in secret - haha!). What I do tell them is that a ‘no’ is not necessarily a bad thing and could, in fact, be the best thing that could happen.  I understand that a ‘no’ can be a hard pill to swallow for a child, or adult for that matter, but I always remind them that some of the most wonderful experiences they’ve had, hobbies and activities they’ve discovered, places they’ve been, have all stemmed from a ‘no’. It helps them not dwell on things, not be fixated on things and overall results in more chilled and relaxed kids. This is of course very much a personal opinion from personal  experience and knowledge of my own DCs personalities- but it is an alternative point of view to the use of  ‘not yet’.

6 hours ago, GBC said:

I would be interested in hearing people's opinions on London Children's Ballet - specifically their policy on allowing some children to participate more than once.  As I understand it, the current policy is that the same children can be selected to take part (obviously if they fit the casting criteria and have the talent), in up to 3 of their annual productions. 

 

I personally feel that this should be mentioned on their website, as it is not transparent - it is misleading as one assumes that they are recruiting an entirely new company every year.   

 

As LCB was created to give as many children as possible the wonderful opportunity of participating in an annual theatre performance, I personally feel that to allow some children to participate more than once, means that there is less opportunity for other children to be successful in gaining a place in their productions. 

 

It is a shame that the charity have not considered changing their policy to only allow children to participate in one annual performance, thereby recruiting a brand new company afresh each year, and giving the maximum number of children the chance to take part. 

 

I would be interested in others thoughts on this.  

Whilst I cannot comment from recent experience, I did see a recent list and noticed a vast majority have been in at least one (usually more) previous production. I don’t think it’s just you who noticed this too. Sadly, when I clocked this a few years ago, it didn’t really persuade me to take my DD to audition so it’s probably our loss but it’s hard not to see that it’s usually a lot of the same young dancers (who are brilliant btw so fair play to them). 

35 minutes ago, glowlight said:

Not really wanting to open another can of worms, but does this mean that RBS have a lot of unused MDS awards knocking around (presumably overseas students aren't eligible, at least for the first two years of their training?)

I wondered about this too because I remember one year I knew quite a lot of those who started were already from private schools and able to afford a lot of training prior to auditioning. Without knowing how it all works, I would assume families like that won’t be eligible for much (if any) MDS funding? In which case there must be some year groups for which not much MDS funding needed. 

5 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

Very shocking stats. It was awful been part of it. If you read the figures quoted in their annual reports you can see clearly how the british students numbers have dropped significantly whereas the international numbers have increased.  However despite the horrendous last 6 months with them WL was an amazing experience and one my daughter holds onto proudly. She (and I) have made friends for life and she is determined to audition for upper school. 

 

I would say to anyone - Go for it, enjoy that experience, treasure every minute but have that back up plan ready. Really think about the options for year 10/11 as many of the other schools won't have boarding places available leaving many dancers stuck. Don't go into it thinking it wont happen to me or that you will get warned if your child isn't likely to get a place. There will be no warnings.  

It’s just a shame because if we are to think of RBS and where it is, and when I think of other similarly top ranked vocational schools overseas, for the latter’s case international students seem to normally only join in the final 1-2 years of the training. Not all, but most I have in mind with the exception of Princess Grace whose student body is extremely international but then Monaco is such a small place. This means that their graduating classes are often still predominantly nationals of the country where the school is located. 

21 minutes ago, Tiaramum said:

Can I just clarify. Last years year 9 were the first to go through this new system. Our of the original 14 girls that started in year 7, only 4 were kept on.

 

 

Those are quite shocking stats @Tiaramum. I guess with the new system RBS can, in theory, actually replace existing year groups with entirely new cohorts of students. They probably won’t as this won’t reflect well on their training for the first 3 years and I actually think that now a lot of people are aware of the stats you mentioned above, plus the number of British students they invited to finals last year for non-Year 7 places, I’m willing to bet WL will invite more British applicants to finals this year (though I’m not sure if they will care about possible backlash or parent discussions such as this). I also don’t think this will affect the number of applications they receive for Year 7, which seems to be more and more every year, nor would it affect the number of applications they receive for entry into years 8 and 9 even thought technically there won’t be any places in those years if those who start at Year 7 are assured the first 3 years of their training. 
 

Slightly unrelated but I saw a recent Instagram post of an overseas young dancer who is about to embark on a ‘short term’ scholarship at RBS. I do wonder how the attendance of these international dancers, who I assume suddenly just join classes, affect how existing WL students feel especially if they join Year 9 classes when it’s such a crucial year in terms of staying on further with the school.

2 minutes ago, Beezie said:

Haha, that may not be a great sign for us.  We  only had Mid-Associates interest, so weren’t trying for White Lodge. 

I’m sure it will be fine as they’re all assessed/ looked at during the same audition class. I remember the year we applied we only applied because a lot of those in DDs school were applying so thought we might as well just for the experience of being able to dance in such lovely studios. The group she was with on the day had amazingly lovely and formidable looking young dancers, most in their RBS associates tracksuits. My DD had a cheap leotard on, no belt, with a low bun. After the class we had completely forgotten about the application until a few months later when my friend told me results were out. There was no one more shocked than my daughter when she was offered an MA place, not ever being in the RBS system previously. Up until her uniform arrived, she thought I was pranking her. 

I think the numbers are quite variable and the process has changed in the last few years. I don’t know much about it from personal experience but my DC is an associate in London. There are very few in the class who weren’t previously JAs (I’d say less than a quarter), but those who weren’t were all in the finals for White Lodge.

13 hours ago, Isabella said:

Can I just ask about associates etiquette. Do you wear your associate leotard if you’re auditioning for a full time place at that school or is it best not to? 

I can’t see anything wrong with this and although not for upper school, I’ve seen this done in auditions for lower school. What I find a bit odd is when young dancers wear their full associates uniform (tracksuit and all) to auditions not related to that school’s associate scheme. My DD and noticed this in various auditions and intensives - in particular students of a specific associates scheme. Perhaps it is like a badge of pride but doesn’t make sense to us especially if the audition, for example, is for other schools.

42 minutes ago, oncnp said:

 

Just to note that Muntagirov has not been part of the program since 2020 and is not listed to teach this year. 

They appear to have different guest teachers every year which I believe is part of the whole experience and appeal of it. Some return year after year, such as Vadim who I think has taught it a few years but not every year. I don’t think it was ever marketed as Daria and Vadim’s intensive as such. Over the years, even without experience of it personally, I found it to be one of the most ‘transparent’ courses/intensives as an outside observer. During the two weeks, they would often have live streams of the actual classes, post videos and photos of the classes, and their website has a very informative (quite humorous) blog every year that gives an insight into the day to day operations of the course. Lots of photos and videos on the website as well. As a parent who rarely sees their DC in class especially since the pandemic, it’s quite nice to have a look into what happens during these classes, especially since a lot of the photos and videos are taken during class candidly, not posed or rehearsed. My DC and I have always admired the dancers who attend this intensive based on the stuff we’ve seen online and were pleased to see Daria starting a junior course this year. The standard of the existing programme seems very high and I’ve seen some students progress soon after to companies (I believe some who attend in the past are already in companies/junior companies). It sometimes looks daunting especially for those not in full time vocational schools as it’s usually attended by RBS upper school students, POBS and I’ve also seen some from Dutch National Ballet Company, ABT Studio Co etc. 

On 21/12/2022 at 22:09, cotes du rhone ! said:

https://www.instagram.com/p/ClwTOzHImPD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

This is new for next year. And a fabulous city to visit 😀

Letters of acceptance for this came out today via email. Very exciting! My DD and I have always loved watching the videos posted on their socials, such high standard. Now to convince the whole family that this is the summer holiday destination they‘ve always wanted to visit…

35 minutes ago, Birdy said:

I think the Prix model is much better than YAGP at selecting dancers who will have future success. Observing classes gives schools and companies a better idea of a dancer’s overall ability not just to execute steps but also to pick up combinations quickly and apply corrections. Then finalists have an opportunity to show their skills and artistry on stage. They also don’t find out the variation they will perform all that far in advance. YAGP, on the other hand, has some dancers who have been working on the same variation for years. It doesn’t really indicate the overall ability of the dancer. 

I believe the YAGP also has masterclasses but I think the main difference (apart from minimum age) is that PdL candidates have already been pre-selected. Anyone can register for the YAGP and perform and be seen on those YouTube livestreams. I believe the PdL selection process is a lot more rigorous in that only a select few actually get chosen after video application or summer intensive pre-selection to travel to Lausanne and participate. A lot of PdL candidates seem to have done YAGP previously already. And I’ve seen many young dancers scoop numerous prizes and scholarships at the YAGP and not even reach the finals of the PdL.

1 hour ago, Sophoife said:

The Interesting part of that @Vivis the number who do go elsewhere then come back to dance with TAB. I mean, Grace Carroll went from Tanya Pearson to ABS to RBS and straight home to TAB on graduation. Chris Rodgers-Wilson, RBS then BRB then came home.

 

Then you have someone like Audrey Freeman who went from Tanya Pearson to RBS US as a result of performing well in competitions at a very young age with massive [largely self-generated] fanfare on social media and has disappeared from ballet. I believe she sustained a serious injury.

 

Then again you have people like Steven McRae and Alex Campbell who went to RBS as a result of PdL and have stayed in England. Thirty years ago and more that was very common (see Leanne Benjamin for example), but even Lucinda Dunn accepted an offer from Maina Gielgud straight out of RBS and didn't take up the contract she'd been offered with the Royal.

If I’m not mistaken, Grace Carroll also went to Paris Opera Ballet School, for at least a year from what I can remember. This might have been off the back of YAGP, but I could be wrong. I’m fairly certain she went to POBS for a year and then on to RBS for only a year too. That’s why I remember reading somewhere on this forum that RBS don’t recruit for final year of upper school but I can certainly think of a good number who have done that before and so whilst they ‘graduated’ from RBS, I would question whether their training is actually ‘RBS’ as a whole since they were only there for a relatively short time. Quite a number get assessed out of second year. 

10 hours ago, DD Driver said:

 

 

- I do find it confusing that UK students - not at a vocational school - are not getting advanced coaching & attending YAGP/PdL as much as o/s students do!  Great teachers are available.  I get that homeschooling & Distance Ed are not as big as o/s and the school exam timing may be unfavourable...but you could still get quality hours in.  Can someone explain?

 

To get to that level, where someone who isn’t in full time vocational school would be competitive enough to gain a place in the top schools and able to participate in YAGP/PdL, the financial and time commitment would be staggering. As far as I am aware of those I’ve seen gain places in top schools (beyond year 7) or were able to participate in international competitions, you would need serious finances and time. Private coaching in London, with teachers who have a track record for these things, would often be upwards of £65 an hour (more along the lines of £85-£125) with studio fee on top (cheapest for Pineapple/Danceworks would be £35+). There are dance schools that advertise  ‘vocational training’ hours so one can stay at home but to even get hours similar to those in full time would still cost a fair bit every term (minimum 10 hours/week) - that’s on top of privates, studio fees, physio sessions, associates, the list is endless. These top coaches would often only have weekday availability, often in central London, and have long waitlists. Those I know who are serious about getting a place (beyond year 7), had to consider home schooling just to get the hours in. I know a lot would say it is possible to get  year 10 or upper school place even if your DC is not full time but I personally believe this would very much depend on WHICH school you want and what competition you’d like to participate in. The last two British PdL candidates I am aware of were privately coached. Just to put it into a modest perspective, I’d say 10+ hours in these dance schools that specialise in vocational training is likely to cost almost £1k a term, even if someone does once a week private, that will be around £400 a month if in London with studio fees (not counting transport  costs), associates will be around £300 a term (for one associates, and this is a prudent approximate - most do more than one associates scheme), physio at minimum £50 a session (I heard it’s more £100 for specialised dance physio). This is not sustainable for most, especially given the current economic climate. That’s why I think ballet at its highest level here in the U.K. is becoming more elite and is only accessible to those who can afford it. In my world, not everyone can easily afford a 2-week intensive that would be around £2k for one child alone - or go overseas with a child for intensives abroad. In addition, not a lot of parents have the time to just accompany their DC around to ballet classes, unless they don’t work or own their businesses which gives time flexibility. 

Bloch, Dancia, Freed and Capezio are all very near each other in Covent Garden. Don’t feel shy to ask them to put on hold ‘possible’ pointe shoes for you after the fitting, as you go around the other shops to try on shoes there. They are used to this and totally understand.  You’ll want to make sure you get the best fit for your DD so it’s worth it going around these shops for fitting, as many as you can. I know that some get swayed by a certain brand that certain vocational school(s) use and would therefore only go to that particular shop without trying on shoes at others. It’s often very obvious when these shoes don’t fit well.

Dancia is the only one where you can try different brands BUT in our experience, when the fitter found out it was my DD’s first pointe shoe fitting, she only let her try on a couple: Bloch and Grishko. She said they were the only ones suitable as first pointe shoes. This could have been just that particular fitter but I felt like she limited our choice and subsequent fittings there always felt a bit rushed. I’ve always had wonderful experience with Bloch and Capezio, both take the time to fit regardless of how many pairs or styles it would take. All Freed styles do not suit my DD’s feet so I don’t have much experience of them in relation to pointe shoes (but they have great customer service overall). This is just our personal experience and I’m sure others might have different. 

8 minutes ago, Millicent said:

I understand that there were two girls who turned down places at WL this year. I know one has gone to a different vocational school, not sure about the other one. 

I think sometimes an overseas student is offered a place but do not want to leave their families at such a young age especially if they live abroad. The other cases I’ve heard of just chose to train with their current  dance school if their school offers quality training and hours.  I think the influx of international students happens more in the higher years when they’re a bit older and perhaps more ready to live away from their families.  I bet the ratio of local students:international students at year 7 compared to Year 11 (and also upper school) is vastly different. With local students I know in the past places have been turned down as parents didn’t want to risk the stress the child might face of constantly having the possibility of being assessed out hovering over them. I guess this has been eased with the new structure. The first major stress will just be after 3 years. 

27 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

If RBS are only offering a 3 year course at Yr 7, I would imagine able candidates with multiple offers will go elsewhere!

I think it’s very rare for an RBS offer to be turned down, despite knowing full well the offer is only for the first 3 years (or in the past, until you pass assessments). It’s rare, but not unheard of. In the last few years I’ve heard/seen of a handful - I can think of only one instance this year where an offer holder opted to go elsewhere. It rarely happens and so in this very small ballet world, it always comes as a bit of a shock to everyone who hears of it and people tend to remember them more (from what I’ve personally observed). 

1 hour ago, Tiaramum said:

Thats correct. The majority of international students in WL are ex YGP/PDL and have been given funding to allow them to be there. The UK numbers for RBS are declining ;-( 

I noticed that too, in particular for Years 10 and 11. I can’t even recall if they accepted any British students last year who aren’t for Year 7 (years 8-11).  I think it was a couple of years ago they last offered places to British students who aren’t year 7 and I can only think of two.  I could be wrong though.