Neverdancedjustamum

26 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

I didn’t find the documentary to be sensationalistic. If anything, it was quite short, not as in-depth as most expected, and I suspect only scratches the surface. I was only watching it in the background whilst doing something else but I believe it was said both schools refused to be interviewed?  

15 minutes ago, Graceful said:

The marks change each year for grammar schools. It depends on the level of that year. This sort of talk like shining in a comprehensive etc is part of the problem. It’s all about being elite these days in whatever you do. This is down to parents too. Many will be happy for their children to be pushed. It’s extremely unhealthy. We can’t just blame the schools. 

It’s not about being elite at all, when I mentioned ‘shining’. Perhaps it’s the wrong term to use when what I probably meant was ‘thriving’. A child doesn’t have to be top of everything to thrive somewhere. They can be distinctly average to outside observers but be completely happy and settled in themselves. This can absolutely happen in both comprehensive and grammar schools. Would this be acceptable in top vocational schools or would the child be thrown out? Of course the responsibility ultimately lies with the parents. If a child is unhappy or if they feel like something is off, they always have the option to take them out of that situation. This is what at least a couple of the parents in that documentary did. 

17 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Probably not quite as bad as being written off at 11 as a failure via the 11plus exam in state schools! 
Thankfully no longer exists but you would be surprised at how many people would like to see it reinstated. 

We live in probably the last county in the country where the default is for year 6 students to sit the 11+ (or ‘transfer test’ as they prefer to call it) unless parents ‘opt out’ their child from sitting it. I therefore know countless numbers of kids who didn’t make the qualifying mark, ended up going to comprehensive schools, and had a more brilliant and rewarding time than a number of those who go to grammar. I can’t even count with all fingers those who left comprehensive schools with much better GCSEs and ended in better unis. It’s horrible going through the the whole 11+ experience, I must admit, but I sincerely believe it’s easier and much more possible for both grammar and comp school children to eventually end up in the same, for example, Russell Group universities. I’m not sure it’s as easy for those who go to normal schools and train after school to go to the same vocational upper schools as those who go to these top lower school vocational schools. In the grammar school scenario, it’s especially cruel for those who just about missed the pass mark narrowly. But these children often end up shining in comprehensive schools and gaining more confidence achieving more there than peers who suddenly found themselves being small fish in a big grammar school pond where most children are as smart or smarter than them.

42 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Something that I can never seem to find is where the lower school kids end up studying afterwards - this is surely part of being accountable too ? 

As far as I know this isn’t published information.  That’s why a post on a separate thread asking for evidence to support a comment about the lack of Elmhurst students going to WL/RBS made me wonder how any sort of evidence can be produced if schools don’t release this information anyway. 

13 minutes ago, Lindsay said:

This is absolutely it.  The schools are linked to the companies who ARE the dream.  And for most they are also boarding school.  Also, at grammar schools you don't spend hours every day with your growing and changing body dressed in a leotard and tights in front of mirrors, teachers and all of your peers........

Exactly what I thought. And normally at a time when the body changes so much too. I’m sure these things exist in some way in all schools and are not isolated to vocational schools but I’d be very surprised if the % of instances of for example, eating disorders, is the same across all schools. In such a small and confined environment, where the career being aimed for has a certain aesthetic, surely all these things are heightened.  I guess sometimes also for those who naturally have the ‘ideal physique’ and it’s genetic, it’s hard for these individuals and their families to imagine the struggle of those who are told to ‘lengthen’ or ‘improve their aerobic fitness’. Or for those who currently doing well and are used by teachers as examples, it will be hard to see the other side of the situation.

13 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Yes I understand that but what about grammar schools? And actually academies seem to have a lot of power now. Plus you can’t just go to other schools. Lots of parents know how difficult it is to get your child a place at a school. This is part of a bigger problem. 
Financially the elite ballet schools have always been a problem for lower income families. So I don’t think the issue is about being able to leave the school for private training. You have to have a high level of training now before even being given a place at one of these schools. 
I agree the schools should do better, like all schools, and any system that is looking after our children. 
Parents surely have to know their children are experiencing issues and then why do they still send their children to these schools? I just don’t get it. 

I can’t speak for all grammar schools but speaking from personal experience of two grammar schools, the parents are regularly consulted with their children’s progress. Nothing is a surprise. Even in schools with 6-7 forms of 30 kids each, I never felt like my kids were overlooked. If any concerns pastoral or academic-related arise, parents are contacted immediately. One of my DCs fell slightly behind in a subject in Year 10. The school immediately organised additional support classes once a week for a term for a group of them and the majority of students who attended these classes ended up getting better GCSE results than they ever thought they could. The schools are very transparent and communication lines are very open. Ultimately, if children in these grammar schools feel upset for any reason during that day, they can come home to their families and be away from an upsetting situation. At age 11/12/13 I believe this is so crucial. Obviously this is only our personal experience of two grammar schools and I’m not on any way saying this is the same for all grammar schools. 
 

Why do parents send their kids to these schools? I can tell you the answer I’ve heard 100% of the time from numerous parents I’ve spoken to: because it is their kid’s dream.  In a way I admire these kids. I can’t imagine mine knowing what their dream career is until at least they go to Uni. Maybe not even then! I also admire the trust these parents place on their kids’ words. My kids have told me varying ambitions they’ve had since they were young. I questioned all of them. Sure enough, they changed their minds weeks or months later. Perhaps mine are just fickle. 

9 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I do hope that it is made clear that these are by no means the only 2 institutions in this field that a) offer elite training & b) have potentially adversely damaged young people. 
 

It will I’m sure be a tip of the iceberg that we see highlighted. And of course there is the good, the bad & the ugly (as well as downright immoral & possibly illegal) happenings across many training establishments from the very basic grassroots entry point to elite. And I do hope that we can occasionally find good out there to give a hoorah to in this ballet training world! My personal experience does have such an extreme mix of individuals ranging from exceptional to dastardly! It is as ever the bad minority who can so often can ruin things for the rest. 
It will I’m sure be an interesting watch…

Sadly, although perhaps understandably, the ‘bigger’ the name and reputation, the bigger the responsibility and accountability in the public eye it seems because a lot of people’s eyes are on you. Elsewhere in the educational world (not vocational training), my experience is that before we say, write and do anything, we often do an internal test that has become second nature over the years: not only “is this right?” but also, “If this was in the public domain, would it be considered reasonable, just and sensible?” (what we used to half-jokingly call ‘The Daily Mail’ test as in “Would this land us in the Daily Mail?”). It’s likely that the issues raised in this programme also exist elsewhere, in other schools, but I guess they picked those they deemed to be the most recognisable names in the country. What happens in these schools are always highlighted and discussed. It comes with the big name and reputation.

46 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

I am wondering how often to children get into upper school with staying at home rather than vocational?

 

im not 100% convinced that most the the vocational schools are the right emotional environment for younger ones. I know this will vary for each child and each school. 
 

any success stories of upper school applicants- girls

A couple of years ago a girl started at RBS upper without being in a lower school vocational. I think there is one starting this year who wasn’t in vocational, spent one year in Europe in a vocational school and will be starting at RBS.  I think there is also a girl who started at Vaganova this year who wasn’t at vocational school. Another I know is also starting at ENBS. Another at NBS Canada. It is possible but would need time and financial commitment. You’d need to have quality, high level ballet training almost at par hours-wise with those offered at lower school vocational schools. 

I’m not sure if the admin is done by the same staff member/s but Tring Park Associates invoices were issued back in the 5th July for this term. They are also very efficient and prompt in responding to queries. Is there a different staff/team that administers CBA? It’s odd because they’re all within the same school.  They’re completely separate schemes of course but one would assume that at least the invoicing would be done centrally.

7 minutes ago, SylviaSylvie said:

Could I ask where you buy those from, please?  My daughter used to always wear those but we’ve been unable to find stock anywhere for some time.

 

My daughter and I both wear Bloch Contoursoft tights which I find durable and long lasting.  I bought her some of the Imperfect Pointed tights a few weeks ago, but she has yet to try them out.

I think you can buy them online from Move Dancewear or Dancing in the Street.

However, I normally buy these So Danca tights and SD16 shoes from Devoted to Dance (on Instagram) as I tend to buy in bulk for the term/terms.

24 minutes ago, BalletGirlAndBoy said:

I agree - social media does seem to play a big part in this. I am not really a social media user and my 10 year old DD is not allowed anywhere near it but, while looking at intensives this summer and who is going where, I have become aware of how many young people her age (or slightly older) have open Instagram accounts, where every arrival at every intensive is posted. The majority of these accounts seem to be parent managed but the whole thing baffles me. The poses taken in front of this school or that school or this famous monument etc etc must take so much time. I, too, must be in the wrong job, as I just can't figure out how people have the time (let alone the money) to do all of this. I am also wondering if it is now a 'thing' that young dancers should have an Instagram account? Does it have an impact on how they are viewed by schools/ intensives etc? My DD is pretty much 'hidden' in the dance world (her dance school doesn't do a lot of social media posting either) and I'm wondering if this will be a disadvantage to her as she gets older? 

Her dance school not being active on social media, for me personally, is a good thing. Over the years we have learned to steer clear of schools that are almost too active on social media, often featuring the same students over and over again. Either these schools have very few students, or they only feature a small number which to me is a red flag and is often indicative of possible issues behind the scenes. Social media is a tricky one, in the last few years I’ve seen her young dancers ramp up their posting as they are about to audition, often tagging schools. Instagram, for example, I believe cites 13 as the minimum age to create an account. A lot of young dancers, some as young as 7/8 years old, circumvent this by declaring to be ‘parent monitored’. This might be well and good for private accounts, but quite a few are public. As to whether it makes a difference in terms of getting offers for places, I’m not sure either. Some schools and teachers seem to think ADs have the time to scroll through social media to look at posts. On the other hand, I have seen very active social media users who repeatedly tag schools suddenly get offers to summer intensives. I guess we will never know, and it’s very much a personal choice. I must say that oddly enough, a good number of those who seem very brave in documenting everything they do, do seem to reap the rewards eventually. Coincidence? 

4 minutes ago, dancecrazy1 said:

I think if social media wasn't a huge part of these tiny dancers lives, the intensives wouldn't be a thing! I'm sure its being seen to attend them that is the real pull, not necessarily the taking part! I am quite shocked at the amount some children have done this summer, how on earth do families facilitate this, flying all over the world for ballet class just seems a bit ridiculous to me, maybe i'm cynical, or maybe these ballet girls have no siblings and their parents don't have to work?

It boggles the mind but maybe I’m in the wrong job. This year was the first year my DD attended an overseas SI (after not attending any U.K. or otherwise for years) and although we were only away for 6 days, the expense when added up is astounding (for me, anyway - I’m not used to spending this much on one kid alone). When you factor in flights, hotel, food... It’s crazy. I know it’s a cliche but on the train ride back home there was a person begging for coins and I literally felt guilty spending money on things that, on the grand scheme of things, aren’t really necessary. Don’t get me wrong, DD and I had a great time being away somewhere we’ve never been to before but I can’t even begin to contemplate doing multiple overseas SIs in one summer.  I missed the rest of the family too much as well. Perhaps it’s not much of a dent on the finances of other families but that’s not the case for us.  And indeed like you I’ve seen quite a few of these young dancers jetting around this summer.

12 minutes ago, squaretoes said:

Hi there.  I know this topic is from a few months ago, but my daughter is considering summer intensives and upper schools in the USA and we were looking at San Diego as an option.  Did your daughter learn a lot in that one?  My daughter will be just coming up to her Upper School auditions and would like to dance professionally in future.  She chose San Diego as we have family and friends there, so we could turn it into a holiday as well.  We'd be happy to look at any other USA based intensives as well so open to further recommendations.  

 

 

Hi! If you’re looking at USA for full time, I have heard Miami City and Houston Ballet School often makes year-round offers to SI students. I also know of a full time offer to an international student at ABT JKO from this year’s SI. The Harid Conservatory in FL is also one to look at. I know they’ve made offers to internationals recently. 

15 minutes ago, LinMM said:

I’m pretty sure I know who RBX is as think it’s the person referred to in my first post!! At least I think I do…be funny if we’re all thinking of a different person though!! 
Have no idea who RBY is and probably best it remains a mystery ( have now got the ear worm Ruby Tuesday from Ballet Rambert in mind) 

It probably is! I didn’t know the dancer had FB  but I just looked and yes, it probably is! The profile photo is a big clue and preview of similar such photos and videos.

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

 

 

I've just looked at few (so I had some idea of what people were talking about, honest 😶) and yes some do appear a trifle... thrusting themselves on to the viewer. There's one vid of a certain RB star showing his barre work... and much else besides that I can't now unsee!

 

Skin tone tights are becoming a thing for men too aren't they? 

 

(I'm not a prude, I went to art school a long time ago and yes we did many MANY hours of life drawing and bodies are bodies but some of this doesn't make you look at the six pack does it? Or maybe that's just me.)

 

I think you found the dancer we were referring to 😊

51 minutes ago, Balletfanp said:

I’m pretty sure I know and that’s exactly what I was talking about. And trying to give it an ‘it’s art’ cloak by moody black and white and filters doesn’t make it any less distasteful.

 

I don’t mind a bit of product endorsement - after all, dancers get sent freebies all the time and in return for that they have to publicly thank the company who have sent it. And I don’t mind the odd rather beautiful modelling shot. It’s when the majority of the account seems to be given up to that kind of stuff that I heave a bit of a sigh.

If it’s the same one, I’m glad you see what I mean too. It’s one thing doing endorsements or ballet poses but the one I’m thinking of does some poses that don’t seem at all related to dance and appear to be done more to show off physique, and as I said, often in quite unnecessary overly revealing scraps of clothing and tensed up poses. I feel guilty when I say this and in the past I thought it was just me being too square or old school but speaking to others, I found lots think the same. This dancer seems really nice and is of course a brilliant dancer, it makes me think why have the need to do such revealing and risqué poses and videos. The photos I refer to are not modelling endorsements, often not related to an upcoming show and quite a few times not even related to the accompanying caption. Even some of the videos posted seem to be shot in less than tasteful angles, made even worse by the (lack of) clothing worn.  I don’t think this is a usual dancer thing, I follow a lot of dancers on Instagram and have not encountered anything like it. 

On 24/08/2023 at 14:33, capybara said:

I thought that I'd put this question up for discussion because the ways in which dancers use social media are so varied and I can feel my equally varied reactions seeping into me more and more.

 

Every day, my automatic feed on Instagram offers me, of course, images of dancers dancing but, often, more - much more - of artists in pretty poses related to what is described as a 'favourite leotard' (I think one ballerina had half a dozen favourites in just one week) or, at the other end of the scale, muscular 'he man' positions which, to my mind, have little to do with dance and can verge on the unattractive (to me).

Then there are some glamourous shots in enviable locations from both men and women mixed in the feed with (e.g.) the sweaty hair/headbands shown on selfies. Or the flashy 'tricks' on one hand set alongside the realism and hard graft of a rehearsal. All that is to be expected.

It goes without saying that most posts represent a form of self-promotion (an increasing number are actually paid-for advertisements in semi-disguise) and I wouldn't criticise any dancer for that. But, to answer my own question, I do think that what an individual chooses to show on social media can magnify how we perceive them as people and artists on stage. In a few cases, I wish that I could come to a performance uncluttered by some of that 'additional information' (usually "too much visual information" 😲) which chances to come my way. And, yes, there a few dancers whose social media 'personalities' have affected, negatively I'm afraid, how I perceive their dancing, however good they might really be.

For me, it doesn’t normally affect my perception of them as dancers. However, I must admit that there has been the odd one where whilst it doesn’t affect my perception of them as a dancer, it has affected how I perceive them as a person. I would be very surprised if I’m the only one who noticed this dancer’s often unnecessarily ‘revealing’ posts - it’s one thing being proud of your body but I often feel like a line can be crossed especially when the captions sometimes don’t have anything to do with the photos posted. I know it’s a very subjective thing but I feel like some posts can be too awkward and not very tasteful. And yes, I have just unfollowed because for me, it’s uncomfortable viewing! 

40 minutes ago, BattementBatty said:

This is very reassuring,  my DD (non vocational and going into year 10), has followed with interested and slight apprehension as many of her peers have jetted off to many different international and uk intensives over the summer break some starting before normal school really finished and fitting in 4 or 5 different schools.  Financially, it is out of our reach and must be out of most people's reach!  My daughter has done one week at YBSS and is doing Ballet Boost next week.  She has also had some privates and done some pilates classes.  I hope this is enough to ensure she is in a good position to return to class in September.

I know what you mean, it’s like a European tour (and beyond!) from what we have seen of others. I often think I’m probably in the wrong job as there is no way I can afford multiple SIs either. Thankfully, my (non-voc) DD isn’t keen on this either as to her, summer is for total and complete rest. This summer is completely out of ordinary for us and she only agreed to do 3 weeks due to generous funding. On hindsight, it would have  been better to space them out, ie if doing two weeks, maybe one towards the beginning and one towards the end of summer. My DD would kill me if she had to miss even a day of school (never mind they don’t usually do much in the last few days!) so American ones for example, are out of the question because a lot of them start as early as June.  My DD enjoyed the intensives she attended but out of them, perhaps unsurprisingly, she enjoyed the ‘least known’ one the most.  Less of the usual ones she sees around the ballet scene all the time, less close groups, and so she got to know a lot of young dancers of varying ages.  She did enjoy a popular one I initially thought she wouldn’t (one where I’ve heard full time students and competition winners tend to stick together), but this is because she met some lovely international and U.K. young dancers who welcomed her and because she loved the food on offer (priorities!).  I think when choosing SIs, have a look at the usual demographic of dancers who attend. I think this makes a difference in the experience of a dancer, especially if your DC is non-vocational.  A couple of SIs with high level, quality teaching, classes that aren’t huge with a good mix of young dancers, a varied timetable - this is always a good combination for us. Where we can help it, we also tend to steer clear of very big class/group sizes or those that seem to focus on dancers from certain groups/schools (social media, although never the complete or accurate picture, can often show a glimpse or gauge of this).  Whilst this is normal and probably the case for a lot of the big name SIs, from conversations with fellow dance parents, this can impact a young dancer’s experience and confidence through the course.

31 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

It is not only at summer schools, during term-time some dancers do too much with classes all week and then even more on Saturdays and Sundays. At least one day should a rest to let the body recover.

Sadly, this is becoming more and more the case with young dancers we know. Some as young as 10/11 yo. 7 days a week of dance with no rest day, then intensive courses and masterclasses every school break.  I believe a big part of it is feeling the need to be on top form for auditions, the fear of peers doing more than them and for those already in full time schools, the desire to stay in the programme. I can imagine it feels like it never ends.  I guess it depends on their dreams and ambitions. My DD would personally go nuts if she had no rest day. As it is, she strictly spends the week focused on being a teenager and student (in a non-voc school) then weekends are for dancing - technically probably too many ‘rest days’ (5) 😂  It works well for her but then she has no immediate ambitions in relation to dance (that she tells me about anyway).

1 hour ago, BalletGirlAndBoy said:

I have a question (which I hope is not a silly one!) about summer intensives. My DD is 10 and has attended two summer intensives this year - one as a day student for 3 days and the other for 5 days residential. While doing these, she has met a lot of children her age or slightly older (11/ 12) who have spent their whole summers going from one residential to another. Some students have come from abroad and have done a tour of European intensives. Others are based in the UK and have gone to at least four, going from one to another and just popping home to wash leotards. Does anyone have any insight into whether this is 'normal' and standard practice for those wishing to dance at a high level? How do people afford it?! Don't they need a rest? This is not intended to be judgemental in any way, I'm just curious as a parent of a DD who is starting to get more serious about her ballet but certainly won't be going to vocational school for year 7. I'm concerned that there will be a big gap created between what my DD can do and what others her age are achieving given this high volume of training. 

 

Any thoughts welcome! 

Sadly, I would say this is probably normal in certain specific demographic. Increasingly I think some DCs and parents these days feel the need to make sure summers are packed with as much training as possible, even though the general advice is, I assume especially for those in full time vocational schools, is that it is extremely important for DCs to get some rest over the summer. However, like you, I did notice that a lot of DCs these days go from one SI to another with some only getting maybe a maximum of a week rest (and I bet there will still be some stretching or conditioning involved within that time rather than complete rest). Sadly, I think a bit part of this is the desire and need to keep up but also the fact that places in vocational schools are like gold dust hence students feel the need to make sure they are getting as much training as possible so they don’t fall behind their peers. I also don’t know how people can afford them. It’s only this year that my DD did more than one SI, but only after about 3 years of not doing any. We only ever really considered multiple SIs this year because she received funding for one and her grandparents paid for the accommodation of the other. Otherwise I would have felt too guilty spending too much money on just one child.

Whilst the SIs are a fun experience and gives a good gauge of where your DC is at, I doubt they take anything long lasting from them. They’re good for networking and meeting new mates. A lot of DCs who attend these SIs already know each other and understandably those who go to the same school tend to stick together. 

1 hour ago, swanprincess said:

There definitely used to be a Sansha store in Covent Garden, not sure if it’s still there though

Definitely gone for a few years now. Such a shame really. 

So Danca ballet tights were what we found to be the best, and we have tried pretty much every brand there is going, including all of those mentioned on this thread (apart from Pretty Polly).  We had about 6-7 different brands going at one point to see which shrunk or changed colour or faded quickest. So Danca (Ballet Pink) colour lasted the longest by far, with barely any fading or changing into that horrible grey pink colour (I’ve never had to get rid of any unless they get a run). This ballet pink shade never changed greyish. The So Danca (Light Pink) lasted the second longest in terms of fade in colour but both these retained their lovely colour and shape and texture by a very wide margin. I used to every so often put the whole lot next to each other to compare since we opened the packs at the same time. The best thing is - this is despite me being lazy and washing tights with other pinks (or sometimes with whites if I don’t have enough pinks to do a load) in the washing machine. I don’t put them in any special pouch when in the wash, I don’t handwash, I don’t scrub. I literally chuck them in with other clothes. And yet the SD tights lasted very long with minimal fade, if any.  The Ballet pink shade also matches the So Danca SD16 stretch canvas flats perfectly.

35 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

Ok good to know 👍🏻 thank you for the reply. 

It’s also good you mentioned you have a DD. Our experience differed slightly but also significantly to those who have DSs. Bottom line is, just by the nature of how many audition every year (males:females), it’s quite natural for odds to vary. You will often find  when talking to fellow dance parents, experience/suggestions/guidance vary if you’re talking to a parent of a young male dancer or a young female dancer. This is based on our experience.

13 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

She is wanting to look at vocational but perhaps one that is fairly local to us. She currently does all genre of classes. Did your local school offer the 6 hours or did you have to go to an additional school or privates? 

It would be rare for a local school to be able to offer 6 hours of ballet classes for that age, unless they have a pre-vocational focus or one of those that advertise as a school offering vocational hours. There are at least a couple of these in London. Depending on which vocational school she wants to go to, from our experience, it will be hard to be competitive enough to get one of those places on just 1 class and a JA class a week alone. Going back maybe 7-8 years, I do know of stunning young dancers who got places in top vocational schools on 1-2 classes a week and one associates (perhaps supplemented by a handful of privates nearer audition time). However, I think these days if you look at those who are successful in getting places in top schools, you would need more than that. The year my DC was in year 6, a lot of those who were successful in getting places trained a lot of hours, did more than one associates, attended multiple summer/spring intensives (U.K. and overseas), and often had multiple ballet teachers and coaches who would train them privately whether online or in person.  This is of course not the same for everyone and for every school - it would very much depend on which schools are on your list. One thing for sure is that it is a massive commitment - both time and financial - should your DC decide to embark on that journey. 

I would recommend doing your research very carefully and thoroughly especially if finances are a consideration (ie if you think your DC would need to see a physio fairly regularly or if you need to pay for the sessions yourself rather than it being covered by a school). When I looked around for physios, I was quite shocked at the hourly rate of some of them. There are a lot of little known gems out there. I tend to ignore social media and prefer to check company and school staff lists. I eventually found one, a former company physio, who charged almost half the rate of some of the other physios I’ve seen. And this physio’s rate was not by the hour but rather by the session, whether this be an hour or two. Having said that, this was quite some time ago. For someone who has more than one child and a lot of other expenses, I would not be able to afford it if my DC needed to see some of the physios I’ve looked into regularly (not that my DC sees one regularly, but I can just imagine how much it would cost if someone had to pay for weekly physio sessions out of their own pockets!).