Neverdancedjustamum

33 minutes ago, Ondine said:

The academic qualifications issue is a difficult one.

 

I assume White Lodge  'assesses out' at the end of year nine in order that those students it doesn't see as benefitting from the ballet training there for whatever reason can move elsewhere for the two years leading up to GCSEs, that could be another vocational school or it could be mainstream education. Of course there are the obvious problems with this, including the effects of the shock to the young person being told to leave. Loss of hopes and dreams, loss of self esteem, loss of friendships, trying to find a place and settle in a new school, maybe a local day school which will be strange after boarding, none of those things will be easy to deal with.  When ballet has been a huge part of your life for years, the sense of grief must be enormous. However, it's also obvious in those circumstances they can't remain, especially if state funding is involved.   No simple answers.

 

At the end of the White Lodge years, it's clear I think to all that moving to Upper School isn't these days a given and that's a whole new process of applying for other places at other vocational schools, or leaving dance training altogether to do A levels in mainstream / non vocational education.

 

Upper School I presume it's made clear at that point that a third, graduate year isn't guaranteed.  However, that leaves those students asked to leave in academic limbo. 

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/academic-boarding/life-at-upper-school/degree-course-classical-ballet-and-dance-performance/

 

 

Students who successfully complete the required number of credits in Years 1 and 2 but who do not progress to Year 3 will be awarded a foundation degree certificate and will be able to apply to Higher Education institutions to ‘top-up’ to a full degree. Students who successfully complete all three years of study will be awarded a BA Degree.

 

It sounds simple, in reality I suspect it isn't!

 

It's all such a gamble.

 

It is indeed such a gamble and even with it being so, and I suspect even with all the discussion surrounding the Panorama show, I highly doubt the school’s/schools’ application numbers would experience a dip. Already I know of lots of young dancers and parents busily preparing to meet the application deadline this year - booking photo shoots, privates, additional classes and physio sessions, etc. The number of those who turned down year 7 places this year surprised me, if I’m not mistaken, it’s much higher than previous years. I do wonder if this was just a blip though and despite all this talk I really doubt it will make much of a difference once offers come out. I have spoken to so many parents who used to be quite vocal about not wanting to send their children at such a young age to board and/or parents who don’t want to send their children to so and so school as they’ve heard it’s quite an intense/stressful environment and yet once they receive an offer…it’s a hard one to resist I guess. I’ve also spoken to many parents who have heard of these things, are critical of the school, and yet year after year they would still apply. A big name is hard to resist. On the surface, it appears to be the best way to get to an ambition or dream despite all such talk as “all roads lead to Rome”.

2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

I agree with you completely. I think it’s definitely not the same with general education schools, comprehensive or not. Pupils are not in these schools with the same primary goal, they all have different ambitions which they are free to explore and work towards in the school. I can imagine parents will find it easier to move their children to a different school should they feel the resolution offered or the actions implemented are not sufficient when a concern arises. The kids in a way do not feel like they need to be in that particular school if anything went wrong, they can still get to where they want to be attending a different school. They don’t feel the need to stay somewhere because they are one of only XX number of students taken in from all over the world. They can keep their school and home lives separate.  They can find their niche groups within the school - some are sporty, some are academic, some are into the arts, the general atmosphere I feel won’t be as stifled and intense. I can only speak of this from the pov of someone whose DCs never went to vocational school. Both my DCs have always been in state schools and both confirm that their respective heads and deputy heads from past and present schools have been very visible and always made it clear that they can be approached in confidence at any time if they encounter any issues with peers or other staff members. The same message is made clear to parents. We only have to email any teacher or even the head and be assured they will personally get back to us asap. This is of course from my own personal experience but I can’t really compare vocational schools to academic schools. We are talking about vocational  schools that have maybe less than 200 students in the whole of its lower school. In a normal state school, that is mostly likely just one year group. It is my belief that for schools with such small enrolment, there should be a whole lot more scope for a nurturing and personalised educational experience, where every student is known by name, where processes and policies are implemented  properly, where there is excellent oversight of everything and everyone.

15 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

Has anyone any information about how many French students are taken into the POB school each year, how many move from the POB school into the company each year, and how many of those who don't make it find work elsewhere

 

 
If this is published information, I’ve never come across it though I haven’t actively looked for it. I suspect it’s an overwhelming majority. I personally know a couple of students who went there who confirm the demographic of the school is majority French.  From the youngest years through to the final year. There are a few competition winners, not many, and often in the older years only. Same with those progressing from school to company. Majority French, with a very small number of graduates from overseas. If Wikipedia were to be believed (and I would advise taking this with a grain of salt), it states 95% of those admitted to the company are French.

34 minutes ago, Anna C said:

I’m not sure how anyone can look at a group of teenagers and “guess” that only one of them is British!  Let’s be extremely careful please that we don’t go down a route of (albeit unconscious) xenophobia - or worse.  
Edited to add:  We also need to be careful about what language we use; “home grown”, “home born”, etc.  A student doesn’t need to have been born here to be trained in the “British” style.

 

And if it wasn’t clear from my post, when I talk about lower school/upper school children being assessed out, sometimes in favour of competition winners, I absolutely do not mean “British *BORN*” students, I mean British TRAINED students.

My apologies, perhaps it was the wrong use of the word “guess”. A majority of them are quite recognisable from social media however, it was wrong of me to imply they aren’t British. Perhaps they have British passports too. I have no intention of being xenophobic, especially as I’m not from this country originally either. It is going to be tricky if we are to be very strict with terminology. Home grown/ home born / locally trained / resident in the country / national / passport holder - it’s a minefield as someone, for example, who has ever applied for funding will find out. In any case, I would love (my outsider’s observation) to be proven wrong. Perhaps someone with a child in the first year cohort would know.

8 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

I doubt that talented home grown students are actually cynically booted out on some pretext or another in order to have an influx of competition winners.

 

But what is obvious is that admission to White Lodge isn't all it could be, if the majority of the intake is 'assessed out' after not too long. I can't think it's simply a money making scheme.

 

I just saw photos of the new first year upper school students. I could be mistaken but of the 15 girls I saw,  I would guess only one is British and only one was at WL from Year 7.  Obviously quite off topic but my DD was recently in an RBS intensive and of almost 30 girls I’d say less than a handful are British (I could actually only see 2-3, one was my DD). Predictably, at least two were offered direct entry for next year’s intensives, both YAGP winners from overseas. My DD confirmed she found both were amazing, and very advanced for their age. To be fair, my DD was just in awe to be there and of everyone there as she’s just more a recreational dancer.

This is, of course, quite off topic for this thread and perhaps can be episode 2 of a Panorama mini-series.

20 minutes ago, Jewel said:

I sent a direct enquiry to a Cambridge college regarding entry to their degree courses as my child has 2 A levels which were taken alongside her dance diploma.

 

The reply was helpful.  They will not accept the dance diploma for entry to any of their courses.  The options would be to go back to college or do an online course to study for a further A level or to study an Open University Certificate of Higher Education prior to applying for an undergraduate course.  

I can confirm the same is the case for universities we have visited so far. 3 A Levels, and for certain programmes, they require specific A Level subjects for at least one of those 3 A levels. Some universities, however, may have contextualised entry requirements. These are the ones that may accept a diploma in lieu of a third A level.

4 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Just a thought I’ve had for a while….

I do see value in Mirrors in dance studios to help with understanding placement/corrections etc but I do question them being a constant presence. Maybe studios should have curtain options to have occasional mirror free lessons?

Our local school pull curtains across mirrors a few weeks before exams & for exam sessions too. This does also show who truly does know syllabus as it is very easy to cheat look across & see others in mirrors for steps etc. And right from primary kids do increasingly seem to be aware of how they look & how they compare & - sadly - they do all see ‘perfection’ online etc & you see pouting & preening from a really early age! 
For older dancers again no mirrors force them to truly learn for themselves & not rely on others so much & it stops some of their pouting & preening & constant leotard leg line hiking up (!!) too.

And also draws the facial expressions to be more inclusive & reflective of performing for an audience & not just to themselves! It also free dancers up to truly ‘let go’ & allow their joy in their own dance to fly! Less playing subservience to the best dancer in the class too!
I’d think a 50/50 split mirrors/no mirror would be hugely beneficial in very many ways! 

 

I would agree with the 50/50 split or the curtains over mirror option but my DD spent a few years in a dance school with no mirrors (the quintessential British local ballet class in a church/school hall).  During her classes where she’s in a proper studio with mirrors, teachers often have to remind her to check the mirror to see if her placement or posture etc looks correct so I do think there’s value to having mirrors. This probably would depend on the age of the child too. The older they are, the more in tune they are with their bodies and they know how it ‘feels’ like if their placement etc is correct and they don’t need the visual cues as much. 

It’s funny how experiences differ. My DD found the food on offer plentiful during one of Tring’s previous Easter intensives. She was warned by many that it is at White Lodge summer intensive that she’d need to bring snacks as the food wasn’t enough. She attended WL SI and said the food was wonderful and there was lots of it! She said she usually had 2 plates of food and one bowl of pudding every meal. I think she made the staff very happy with her appetite.

4 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Your post reminds me of something I witnessed at Tring first-hand. While my dd was still a recreational dancer, she used to attend their dance days and workshops. At one of them, to which parents were invited to observe class, there was a long table in the main building full of tea, coffee, and piles of cakes and biscuits. We had all eaten our fill, and while we waited to be called in to watch our kids, a class of teenage full-timers burst out of their studio, charged along the corridor on the way to their next class and helped themselves to the offerings on the table as they went. It was like a plague of locusts had descended, and there was very little left after they'd gone. I wondered whether they were allowed to help themselves to food laid out for visitors, looked at a member of staff standing by me and she said with a grin:  "They burn off a lot of energy, they need it!". That left me feeling very positive that at that school at least, there was a healthy attitude towards eating.

I remember those days! My DD used to attend CBA in Tring and years ago they used to put out coffee and tea and biscuits! Even back then, my DD must have been about 8, it was always the highlight for her. She used to try and get a handful of biscuits (only her!) until I warned her there were other CBA students and parents who might want some too. Some of her fondest memories are also of TPA on Saturdays when there would be a little table top cafe/shop set up by the waiting area where all the kids and parents used to buy snacks and drinks. My DD always remembers these lovely memories, as do I. TPA in particular, in our personal experience, had a very happy and nurturing vibe to it. I didn’t get a sense of competitiveness or favouritism, no drama. I digress but yes, those were positive and happy memories of that school. We don’t have experience of the full time school so cannot comment on that side of it.

I remember years ago my DD was in a summer intensive and I chanced upon a group of mums in the waiting room chatting. Their daughters were in one of the schools featured in the documentary, and were in one of the older groups of the intensive. They were all worried about their daughters’ attitudes towards food and eating in general at the time. I remember distinctly like it was just yesterday, though this was a good few years ago, what one of the mums told me: “Oh they’re all at it at school. It’s just moving from one bizarre diet to another but constantly being on some strange diet.”  The whole talk hinted at competitive dieting in such a small, enclosed environment - who can be skinniest, who can have the longest lines. That conversation stayed with me for years and whilst my DD has never been in full time vocational school, since then I’ve been so vigilant in subtly looking out for warning signs. Thankfully so far, knock on wood, she’s not the type to even think about it. She doesn’t have the textbook ideal diet but I think a big part of how it’s a non-issue for her (and often oblivious that eating issues exist) is because she has very distinctively separate dance and ‘normal teenager’ lives. I remember one time we were walking towards her associates class and she was eating a burger having just come from another class. We rounded the corner and I saw some of her peers snacking on healthy bars. I told her to go back around the corner as I was embarrassed she was eating ‘junk food’. She marched on ahead and said to me “I’ve just been dancing for two hours. I need the energy.”  I was told later that she even broke out some cake in the change room and shared it around. In that moment, I did think my DD had a more normal attitude towards food than me and I felt ashamed. It might be a controversial decision but my husband refused to let our DD watch the programme. His fear was that despite numerous talks and lessons on healthy eating in their (normal, non-vocational school), our DD is still quite naive and innocent about how prevalent these can be in the dance world.  He didn’t want to bring the topic to the forefront of her mind when it never has. 

39 minutes ago, Balletchick said:

I am also struggling with this, although we have a little more time on our hands. DD is, on paper, a reasonable prospect. Good turnout. Very flexible. Nice feet. Good musicality. Skinny as a rake. But I don't know what she'll be like in 5 years time! She wants to dance. She's (at the moment) not sure about going away to school. I'd like to keep her home until 16 at least. We have a decent dance school and are close to intensives and associates schemes (geographically). My question is - are these as toxic? Is auditioning for RBS JAs, or Northern CAT likely to expose her to the same sort of toxicity? It would be mitigated by her being at home, and at her normal school, but I'd still rather have my eyes open. What about summer schools? If I send her away to RBS or Elmhurst for summer school, will she be exposed to harm? What about the programmes like Northern, Moorlands, etc?

Choose associate schemes very carefully. Don’t feel the need to join multiple ones. Some seem to me to be more about the big name, some feel like a money making business more than anything and some call themselves associates because they know there are lots of parents around looking for ‘pre-vocational’ classes to prepare their students for auditions. Look closely at the classes on offer. Would it be worth your time and travel expense to attend a class that’s only about a couple of hours long if you live miles away? Is it worth your money if your child is in a class of about 2 dozen kids where personalised feedback is highly unlikely? The best associates scheme we found is actually one that has been running for years and yet doesn’t get a lot of mention on here and nor are they active on social media.

11 minutes ago, Beezie said:

 

I would also just add that after-school programs can be toxic too.  Parents need to always remain vigilant.  And sometimes you don’t fully understand if a situation is toxic until you have removed yourself and your child from that environment.  It supports a situation where you want to diversity your children’s’ experiences….perhaps different classes and associates affiliations.

100% agree with this. A number of concerns raised in relation to boarding schools are definitely also present in local/after school dance schools.  And just like them too, parents often feel like they have no choice, for example, if they live in areas where there is a lack of good quality dance schools. I am wary of schools that are too active on social media, those that feature the same students over and over again and I find that that the more ‘happy and nurturing’ a dance school claims to be, the opposite is usually the case. The best teachers and dance schools we’ve ever encountered are those that have very limited or no social media presence. In some dance schools, favouritism is prevalent and those who are only given time and attention are those who aim to attend one of the schools mentioned in the Panorama documentary. Because it will be good advertisement for the school.  Children are often too scared or worried to tell their parents how they are treated in class and worse yet, probably consider this as normal. I would be very very careful in choosing dance schools too and would exercise the same due diligence you would if you were picking an academic school or full time vocational school.

Unfortunately, I wasn’t surprised by the revelations and I actually thought that the schools got away lightly due to the programme being half an hour only, and perhaps having a limited number of individuals willing to be featured. I think it will be tricky to share tips because at the end of the day it’s a very personal choice and as parents we believe we know our child best and what they want. Personally, and this is from the angle of someone who wouldn’t and couldn’t face the idea of sending her child at 11 to board, I think there is something to be said for children starting full time vocational boarding school at an older age (ie upper school or sixth form). Puberty years would be more or less over, majority of milestone physical changes would have already happened, and they’ve matured more emotionally, socially and mentally too. This is not to say that sending your children at an older age will be problem-free.  I stress that this is very much a personal opinion. The lower school age I believe is so crucial in contributing to the young adult my children are going to be in the future and I for one wanted to be there for as many moments and nights and after-school afternoons for as long as possible. I knew with certainty that I couldn’t bear the thought of only seeing them occasionally - even every weekend and school break wouldn’t have been enough for me. If my dancing DD had insisted on going away at a young age, I would have been fully ready to deal with the possible resentment in the coming years. But I know my children and I know that what they thought they wanted at 11 wouldn’t be what they wanted to be a year or so down the line. They are only young once and I can never get those years and moments back. Ironically, if I didn’t think with my heart and emotions, my kids are probably the ideal personality and character to board early. Both are extremely independent, laid back and doesn’t get emotional easily - and definitely not the type to get homesick. Thankfully for me the decision was easy as both my kids agree they’d rather leave home when they’re about 17/18. They probably won’t say it to my face but they know they’ll miss me too haha! You can totally still support your DC’s dancing dreams without them having to go away early. It will entail commitment and time and money and family time can sometimes suffer but you just need to weigh the pros and cons and your priorities as a family. I just saw a photo of the first year girls of one of the schools mentioned in the documentary and saw one (British I think!) girl who I know only went to full time vocational school last year. Only one year full time, and she got a place at that specific school. So it’s definitely possible. ENBS and Central probably have more examples of these too. 

5 minutes ago, Thelittleswans said:

 One good thing that might come out of this is, less children going into vocational training at 11 sparing them the abuse/bullying/body shaming. I feel this programme has highlighted my fears for my own daughter and has seriously impacted our decision making. 

Sadly, I very much doubt it. I’ve already witnessed the ramping up of ‘preparations’ for the next cycle of auditions - booking of expensive photo shoots, multiple physio sessions, extra privates, additional classes/associates, extra coaching etc etc. This perhaps not surprisingly coincides with applications opening for entry into 2024. Despite all the discussions on here, I very much doubt this will impact much once offers go out early next year. This year, I was actually surprised at the number of those who turned down year 7 places in one of the schools mentioned. If they didn’t manage to fill those places up with those from waitlist, I assume it will be a smaller than usual class size unless they can slowly increase the numbers with international students. 

I can say with certainty, for someone who has worked in the broad area of compliance and policy for years, that policies are put in place to protect institutions as much as they are there to protect students. In casework for example, policies are used and often quoted verbatim when complaints arise and as much as I hate to say this, they are there partly there to cover institutions’ and companies’ backs. When a complaint arises, one of the first things that the school or company would check is the policy and was there something that the complainant did not follow. For example’s sake, if a policy says that a complaint should be raised within 2 weeks of an incident, then they would quote this relevant section if the complaint was raised 3 or 4 weeks after.  These are the small print that people don’t read until they’re done for something or when something happens. How many people actually read a school’s set of policies when picking a school for their child? Very few I’d hazard to guess. We are more likely to see the things advertised in big bold letters (Graduate destinations! Exam results! World class reputation! ).  Sometimes publishing a policy is a tick box exercise. 

3 minutes ago, alison said:

I can imagine that there's a certain expectation that students will be "on-message" during Ofsted inspections, in the same way as it was mentioned above that you shouldn't necessarily imagine that what you seen on an official open day is a completely accurate reflection.  If asked, they can easily say "Oh we have such-and-such a policy which states that ... and we have weekly ...".  I wonder what questions Ofsted inspectors ask, and whether they would get a different impression if they asked different, or more penetrating, questions?

Ofted just updated their School Inspection Handbook last month. Not sure it will go into the kind of questions they might ask but I did wonder how they pick which staff and students they will speak to. I remember for an inspection I observed in the past (not Ofsted but also one that involves educational settings), the education provider can pick the students they would put in front of the inspection panel. I remember distinctly that the provider specifically picked certain students (you can imagine the type) and it wasn’t a random process at all. The students were also briefed on what they might get asked.

7 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Not making any excuses but in recent years Ofsted inspections have changed a little. 
I think most these days only give 24-48 hours notice and go into schools looking only at specific things. So very hard to update lapsed policies with that sort of notice!! This has resulted in schools being rated as “inadequate” for very often the failure of one policy….as was in the News only recently. 
Gone are the days when schools went a little crazy with at least a months notice of an Ofsted inspection!! 
Having said that I think it’s still hard for teachers/parents/ students to speak truth to power. 
 

Ah but policies and regulations and their implementation should be reviewed and updated regularly (if not annually, for some), not just when there’s an inspection looming. I think this is why a lot of institutions and companies get into trouble. And record keeping practices, amongst other things, when it comes to inspections.

9 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

That’s a very very interesting question….

And I wonder if once a pupil leaves they delete all records or is their a duty to retain them? 
I had once thought about this but decided at the time life was too short & unless we were going to seek legal redress & launch family into all that entails it was a can of worms best left to rot. 
And I did agonise as bringing to light our issues might potentially save others from similar treatment if the schools see their are consequences… but yet no….put head back in sand. Why? Because we all know this doesn’t stop just at the door of schools as who are these people with influence in schools? Former dancers with influence across many schools/companies/friends to choreographers, dancers, directors, members of boards etc etc 

The whole feels rather ‘old boys club’ rotten - just as seedy as we tend to think about the proliferation of MPs from Oxford etc etc 

Schools should have a data retention / record retention policy. This will vary from school to school especially since U.K. GDPR and the Data Protection Act requires institutions to keep data for only as long as they need it and with good reason to do so, other these need to be either destroyed or securely archived if needed to be kept for longer. Data retention policies are usually publicly available on institutions’ websites. It would also depend on the nature of the information you’d need. The example given on the gov.uk website is that pupil names in the safeguarding system would typically be kept on record for much longer than in the catering system.

8 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Richard, thank you for providing that information.  All I would point out is this:

 

1. That just because “no bullying was reported to inspectors”, it doesn’t automatically follow that none took place.  
 

2. That a school can have all the policies in the world, but it doesn’t mean they follow those policies to the letter.

 

3. Sometimes, it’s not what is or isn’t said that’s the problem.  As one of the young women featured on the programme said, it’s the “coded messages” that are often the problem.  The little comments here and there, that seep into the recipient’s subconscious but pass other people by.  Sometimes, it’s not as obvious as being audibly or visibly bullied; being ignored and given no corrections at all is equally as upsetting and worrying to a dance student as being picked on.

 

There’s a reason Emotional Abuse and bullying is sometimes called “death by a thousand cuts”, or Boiling Frog Syndrome.  It’s subtle.  It’s insidious.  Often, people can’t even identify the problem until it’s too late.  And if, as a child or teenager, you think you’re the problem (too fat/too heavy/too unfit/not committed enough/not good enough etc), you internalise that.

 

What are you going to tell an OFSTED/ISI Inspector?  Nothing.  Nothing bad, certainly.

Exactly this about policies. All schools are required to have certain policies and often they are required to have these publicly available by law or by regulatory bodies for various reasons including to continue to receive funding or be able to operate. I’m not sure how these specific inspections work as I don’t have experience in that sector but have been part of and privy to a few other inspections often with good notice to institutions and often initially starting with a desk-based exercise of documents available. It shouldn’t be a surprise that schools would have all these policies and regulations in place. What I would look at is: how updated are they and are they still fit for purpose? More importantly, are they actually being implemented? I can already see that one of those policies linked is almost a decade old and only updated once two years after since then. Covid has delayed a lot of OFSTED inspections so that might be excused. 

4 minutes ago, Balleteveryday said:

As someone whose child is not too far off the stage of applying to these schools, I came out of watching that programme in the hope that it was ‘just’ (please don’t get me wrong, one is too many) a small number of students who’d maybe not done as well as they’d hoped and that it had been put together as sensationalist click-bait. Whilst I’ve never been deaf to the issues I’ve heard on the grapevine, I’ve also always hoped that these were historic issues and that we were now in an era of significant change where this kind of thing wasn’t tolerated. Coming on here and hearing ALL of your stories is heartbreaking. It’s not just those few young people who spoke in the programme and the horrific impact we saw it had on them. And it is not historic, it’s now (I’m aware the programme referred to 50 former students, but we don’t exactly know what they all said).

 

I’m not sure how any parent who watched the programme and reads this thread could confidently say they’d be happy to put their child in this environment even if the child was pushing for it. Yes, we want to support our kids and their dreams but I’m not sure I can ignore the metaphorical big red flashing lights and sirens in the hope that my child somehow will be lucky enough to escape this treatment. 
 

Can I ask what other parents are thinking/feeling if your child is due to audition maybe this year or next? What do we ask the schools on open days/audition days? What do we ask the current students if they are giving tours? Would we as prospective parents ‘damage’ our children’s chances of even being offered a place if we were seen to be asking certain types of questions? I don’t know?!

 

What do we need to see from the schools to convince us that they are safe and nurturing environments where our children will thrive?
 

When I’m even thinking about  these types of ‘what if’ questions, it makes me think that some of these the issues relating to speaking out or challenging ‘authority’ are pervasive not just when you’re in the schools, but in the whole genre/system. Maybe I’m thinking too much?

 

Also, this might be a whole other thread so apologies if it disrupts the current conversation.

As a parent who’s embarking on a massive open day mission - nothing to do with vocational schools - and someone who’s been working in education for what seems like decades, open days/mornings are good for looking around campus. So speak to current students and staff and absorb the general information given to you. Admire the campus.  However, the atmosphere during open days is very curated (I won’t go as far as to say artificial). What I used to do, additionally, is to bring my DC to a normal day on campus where possible. This probably won’t be possible for vocational schools but just to say take open days with a pinch of salt. As someone who’s been thrown  into the ballet world by a DD who loves dancing (much to our surprise as our family has zero history of dancing or interest in dancing), I can now say that it is a very small world. You’ll get more info from current and past parents than you’ll ever get from open days. Those who are most vocal are those who experienced opposite sides of the spectrum: those who are very pleased with their experience and those who really aren’t. Listen to both. And listen to those who are neutral or not even in the vocational world. Often it is this very group who gets to be the sounding board. It may not be their personal experience but it is in those very casual encounters and catch ups that you get to hear a lot. Just because it wasn’t someone’s experience, doesn’t mean it’s hearsay, especially when you talk to these people. There’s no smoke if there’s no fire. Lastly, situations change very quickly. I’ve known many parents who have been very pleased with their experience so far…until they’re not (ie their kids don’t get upper or 6th form or there’s some sort of falling out). Equally, I’ve known some disgruntled parents who are lucky enough to find another school or teacher who nurtures their traumatised or broken child. Always two sides to a story, but never dismiss either. Feedback is always born out of context.

8 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

As a parent of a year 6 dancer I am so sad that this still goes on in some of the best ballet schools in the U.K.

I feel like veering her away from ballet entirely after watching this 

 

can a child ever make it in ballet without being abused 🤦‍♀️

 

 

Bearing in mind, this is probably not isolated to vocational boarding schools. I also know of concerns in local dance schools. Perhaps not so much the body shaming but definitely the verbal jibes and what can be constituted as bullying. And just like those DCs, often the child would be scared to tell anyone about it (and often the parents too), feeling they have no choice. I’ve witnessed parents who know full well that this happens in the schools but opt to keep their child in there as they feel they have no choice or because the teacher is brilliant. I’m sure a child can make it without being abused but it is a tricky one to manoeuvre. 

26 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

I didn’t find the documentary to be sensationalistic. If anything, it was quite short, not as in-depth as most expected, and I suspect only scratches the surface. I was only watching it in the background whilst doing something else but I believe it was said both schools refused to be interviewed?  

15 minutes ago, Graceful said:

The marks change each year for grammar schools. It depends on the level of that year. This sort of talk like shining in a comprehensive etc is part of the problem. It’s all about being elite these days in whatever you do. This is down to parents too. Many will be happy for their children to be pushed. It’s extremely unhealthy. We can’t just blame the schools. 

It’s not about being elite at all, when I mentioned ‘shining’. Perhaps it’s the wrong term to use when what I probably meant was ‘thriving’. A child doesn’t have to be top of everything to thrive somewhere. They can be distinctly average to outside observers but be completely happy and settled in themselves. This can absolutely happen in both comprehensive and grammar schools. Would this be acceptable in top vocational schools or would the child be thrown out? Of course the responsibility ultimately lies with the parents. If a child is unhappy or if they feel like something is off, they always have the option to take them out of that situation. This is what at least a couple of the parents in that documentary did. 

17 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Probably not quite as bad as being written off at 11 as a failure via the 11plus exam in state schools! 
Thankfully no longer exists but you would be surprised at how many people would like to see it reinstated. 

We live in probably the last county in the country where the default is for year 6 students to sit the 11+ (or ‘transfer test’ as they prefer to call it) unless parents ‘opt out’ their child from sitting it. I therefore know countless numbers of kids who didn’t make the qualifying mark, ended up going to comprehensive schools, and had a more brilliant and rewarding time than a number of those who go to grammar. I can’t even count with all fingers those who left comprehensive schools with much better GCSEs and ended in better unis. It’s horrible going through the the whole 11+ experience, I must admit, but I sincerely believe it’s easier and much more possible for both grammar and comp school children to eventually end up in the same, for example, Russell Group universities. I’m not sure it’s as easy for those who go to normal schools and train after school to go to the same vocational upper schools as those who go to these top lower school vocational schools. In the grammar school scenario, it’s especially cruel for those who just about missed the pass mark narrowly. But these children often end up shining in comprehensive schools and gaining more confidence achieving more there than peers who suddenly found themselves being small fish in a big grammar school pond where most children are as smart or smarter than them.

42 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

Something that I can never seem to find is where the lower school kids end up studying afterwards - this is surely part of being accountable too ? 

As far as I know this isn’t published information.  That’s why a post on a separate thread asking for evidence to support a comment about the lack of Elmhurst students going to WL/RBS made me wonder how any sort of evidence can be produced if schools don’t release this information anyway.