Neverdancedjustamum

22 minutes ago, Newtothis said:

Thank you for your reply, I’ve found this age the trickiest to navigate with her as there’s clearly so much going on but she doesn’t seem to have the words to articulate it or struggles to explain to me.
I think the latter is definitely problematic for her as there’s quite a bit of comparing going on between herself and one particular student (the other student is extremely gifted and viewed as the best/most advanced student in the school without a shadow of doubt). Xx 

I can totally sympathise. This age really is tricky no matter how settled and laid back a child is. They also don’t want to appear weak or emotional so often they don’t know how to begin to verbalise their thoughts and feelings. Even when things are going on in class, they want to be troopers and appear strong. To the point where you’ll probably find out more from others about how the class is and how your DD is treated from others and not directly from her. Sadly, this happens in a lot of dance schools and it’s so damaging and detrimental to these young, impressionable children/teens. You only have to look at dance schools that are active on social media. You can see within a few seconds who the favourites are. I would personally steer clear of these schools, or if you are in it, think carefully about moving DC. These schools would only measure success by those who go to vocational schools or who gets which associates. These seem like little things but it could spell such a big difference. Shattered confidence is hard to restore, and it would take a long time, if it can be restored at all. I often wonder how many amazing dancers the dance world have missed out on because of teachers who like comparing students or young dancers who weren’t nurtured because they didn’t fit the mould of what others perceive a dancer should be at such a young age. Like in any class, dancers as students develop at different rates and have different personalities and learning styles. It is extremely hard to find schools and teachers who can nurture this variety in students. There is only so much we can say to them at this age, (especially if you’re like me and you’re a parent who never danced yourself) - their validation comes from others and her teacher and class would always be key to this. I wish I can provide more helpful advice but as someone who can completely relate to this, I can only hope that your DD will find her sparkle and confidence again. For my DD, it spelled the difference between wanting to pursue dance more seriously and focusing on her academics and sport (and teen life in general). She chose well and is very happy and confident in other things, but she still has to find the sparkly, fiery little dancer she used to be. 

My advice would be is to first try and determine (and this is often the hard part), if something happened to bring about this sudden lack of confidence. She’s at that age where it will probably be tricky to get this out of her and perhaps this is because she herself isn’t sure that this is the reason/s of her sudden lack of confidence. Often I find that if your DD was previously confident or at least settled in her dancing, it is often external factors or things she has no control over that bring about sudden lack of confidence. It could be anything from her body suddenly developing and a friend from class making a small comment about this to a teacher who has favourites or overly praises a peer. 

12 minutes ago, Mumtolulu said:

Yes, did 14 is attending. She too is not in a full time vocational school. 😊

Ah brilliant! My DC would be pleased to know. I think I’m the one who’s nervous about DC being in a group of full time vocational students as DC only really dances during the weekends and will go into the Prague intensive after not having danced at all for a month. 

11 minutes ago, Ballet_novice said:

May be by chance this year the British students simply were not at the level required (combination of physical characteristics, artistry, technique etc. ).  Upper school is i understand one of the three top school in the world. And to remain as such simply has to select the best worldwide. Pretty much like universities. 

Even putting aside whether or not a student is British, surely both upper school and WL are under the same wider RBS umbrella. It therefore won’t be unreasonable to assume that if indeed it is one of the top three schools in the world, then RBS’s upper school surely should have more students progressing on from its own lower school? If this is the case and WL students comprise a significant  % of every first year upper school  cohort, then everyone can be assured that such world class training, perhaps one of the top three in the world, is consistent across all 8 years of the school.

I think this is always going to be a tricky and contentious topic because inevitably, as humans, comments and opinions will be influenced by a lot of (often subjective) factors: personal or close experience (ie did own DC or friends/family have good experience at WL), where one comes from (British or overseas), and how the journey is going and/or ended up (ie did DC/friends/family get to stay at WL all 5 years, did they get upper), and personal opinion (is the class indeed better than other equivalent classes in other schools - is that in comparison to schools in the U.K. or internationally?). Ultimately for those who don’t have personal or close experience or knowledge of a school, the obvious initial way to look at a school is through the publicly or easily available statistics and info - the same way people check school and university league tables. These definitely  don’t show the whole picture but it’s a good starting point.  A good way to also get a feel about a school is to talk to people who are/been there, this I find, is the most telling but also recognising that personal experience is highly subjective.

Both my DCs took the 11+. I think our county is the only one (or 1 of 2) left in the country where year 6 students, as default, sit the 11+ unless the parent opts their DC out of sitting it. I believe in other counties students have to opt in or register to take the 11+. The 11+ therefore is still a massive thing here, to the detriment of the remaining comprehensive schools.  From my personal experience of two grammar schools, the support not just to get students through all 5 years but to attain excellent GCSE results, is exceptional. Students who need additional help in certain subjects are identified early on and given additional classes and lessons. There are regular assessments and reports through the year. Nothing comes as a surprise. The drop out rate within those 5 years, as far as I can tell, is minute if any. No one as far as I know has been assessed out based on academic performance. Some (very few) opt to leave because the grammar school system isn’t for them and end up achieving better in comprehensive school. These schools exert tremendous effort to keep their students in for entry into their respective sixth forms. I think the main difference is that for the most part, to stay in grammar schools, most factors are within the students’ control (work harder, study more). They are not assessed on physique or facility or shape of foot, elements of which are sometimes not within the child’s control.

I fear this discussion might go the way other RBS-related threads have gone and be locked. However, I did wonder if RBS could maybe publish, the same way they do graduate destinations of their pre-professional students, destinations of their White Lodge graduates. After all, don’t they insist that years 7-9, years 10-11, 1st-2nd years upper and third year upper are all distinct, separate stages? Unless they already do this? Perhaps a bit more transparency like this would benefit the school, as well as assuage concerns of parents.

3 minutes ago, Graceful said:

You’re not supposed to bring food into the rooms so no snacks. 
No tuck shop but they feed the children very well. Including a snack before bed. 

Not from personal experience as my DD has never attended in the past but oddly enough this is what a number of mums whose DDs attended the last few years’ top tip for me - separately (!) they strongly advised me to pack my DD a lot of snacks. Apparently they’re told not to bring snacks but lots do which helped as the young dancers were always peckish. Obviously I’m not sure if tuck will be considered contraband and be confiscated but I might risk it and pack my DD some as she literally has a bottomless pit and is always hungry despite eating full meals. Maybe this is why they advised me this, because they know my DD all too well. A couple also told me to pack a portable fan as apparently there is no air conditioning and it can get quite hot in the rooms.  This confused me a bit as I’m not sure if they meant hand held battery-operated ones or proper desk-type ones!?

Most of DD’s close friends are not dancers (very few in her school know she dances!) but are involved in various sports at quite high and elite levels. During regular catch up and chats with their mums, I would say from my experience that despite the long hours and early starts, these sports give a slightly more ‘even field’ when it comes to providing access and opportunities in relation to finances and expenses (ie how much a family can afford). As long as the kids are determined and love what they do, and the parents are willing to put in the time and support, I think the financial output is nowhere near as high-expense as ‘hot housing’ young dancers. My sport mum friends are horrified at how expensive it can be in the dance world and when they hear about how much private lessons/studio hire/intensives/Pilates/associates etc etc all add up to. These sports don’t involve as much 121/private type coaching with hourly fees. Most of their additional expense only involve transport/travel. I also find they don’t miss as many of the social teenage things that happen during the weekends or after school. Would these kids that I know end up to be professional athletes? I suspect very few will if any but even at a young age they are very aware that most of them won’t end up doing it for a living. 

I remember seeing Viola on Ellison Ballet

photos and her style still very much reminds me of the training there.   I then saw a World Ballet Day video on YouTube around 5 years ago of then WL year 11s, which, if according to the article above Viola joined WL in 2017, means she would only have attended WL for a year maximum before going on to the Upper School. On that WBD video she was already a standout and very noticeable. If she started in the autumn of that year, she would only have been at WL for a month or two at the time the video was taken. When you search YouTube for that video, it’s actually a still of her that comes up in the results. 

5 hours ago, Ondine said:

The ballet world is certainly crazy. There are so many routes to success, but it appears a place at White Lodge guarantees nothing beyond that.

 

I'll just leave this here.  Many are called and VERY few are chosen for this school.

 

https://www.monaco-tribune.com/en/2020/10/video-behind-the-scenes-at-one-of-the-worlds-most-exclusive-dance-academies/

 

BTW  US dancer Darrion Sellman,  Prix De Lausanne 'apprentice' 2022-3 with the Royal Ballet and now off with a contract to the Royal Swedish Ballet, can be added to the list of winners.

 

https://www.hellomonaco.com/news/latest-news/unprecedented-multiple-winner-princess-grace-academy-sweeps-dance-prizes/

 

 

Thank you for the links @Ondine! Very interesting indeed. I chanced upon the first article previously and couldn’t find it again when I wanted to show my DD so thank you for linking it above. Incidentally that’s one school that British trained dancers seem to find hard to crack at least in my recent memory. I could be wrong but I can only think of one British-trained female dancer who was offered a full time place and subsequently trained there (as far as I can remember). Many British-trained dancers are offered places to the intensives (which I believe also serve as an audition for those above a certain age), including those who attend various vocational schools here in the U.K., but none appear to have been offered full time places or attend full time.  That school always stream their end of year performance online (for a small fee via the Les Ballets de Monte-Carlo website) so the public from all over the world can watch their students, a transparency I find very refreshing and seems like clear evidence that they are very proud of their students. As they should be as whenever I watch them, their artistry and musicality amongst other things seem to be on a whole different level. 

This has been an ongoing, very lively and interesting discussion over the last few years for those who work in higher education, and the HE reforms due to be launched today is probably the final bit of a review that started back in 2018. It’s a very complicated (and dividing) discussion that is focused on key measures: mostly continuation rates and employment prospects. For those who are interested in this, there are a number of good articles on wonkhe.com and more information if you search for “Augar review”.

For those interested in stats, the HESA website is a minefield of data:

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/news/31-05-2023/sb266-higher-education-graduate-outcomes-statistics
 

https://www.hesa.ac.uk/data-and-analysis/graduates/releases

Anyone’s DC attending this year’s first ever junior version of the International Ballet Masterclasses in Prague? I understand this is the first time this junior group will be running. My DC isn’t in full time vocational school and so I don’t think she’ll know many other young dancers. I’m hoping there are others like her who aren’t in full-time vocational school, only because as it is she doesn’t dance nearly as much or as many hours as her peers. I know the standard of this intensive is extremely high. 

On 06/07/2023 at 12:26, LinMM said:

Am sorry to see that Darrion Sellman has left the Company though I wonder where he’s off to perhaps an American Company? 
Otherwise congrats to all who have been promoted and especially pleased with this seasons Aud Jebsen dancers who have made it into the Company as Artists and the new intake of dancers for the 23/24 season. 
Also great news about Isabella and finally Harrison Lee gets a promotion!! 

Darrion Sellman has just announced on his Instagram that he will be joining the Royal Swedish Ballet for the 2023/24 season.

Just to say this is from our personal experience.  Bloch and Capezio have both been amazing for us and Bloch has so many styles she’s bound to suit something. I can’t really speak about Freed as my DD never suited their shoes. Dancia stocks different brands but we have always been underwhelmed by the service we got there. 

I think by the time a DC is into their teens means they’ve most likely attended quite a few trials for classes whether it be for other dance genres and not just ballet but also it could even be within the same school. 

For most parents of dancing DCs, class and other associated dancing fees constitute a significant percentage of the family’s income. Which is why I think professional courtesy should work both ways. While recognising the challenges teachers and schools face especially after the pandemic and the current economic climate, most parents experience and feel face these too. And whilst the term ‘grass is greener’ often has a negative connotation, as a parent, I would admit to being willing to do this not for the fun or just for the sake of it but if I felt my child has stagnated somewhere or is not being nurtured or isn’t happy anymore. As long as there is open communication and the right notice is given, no child (or their parent) should feel trapped somewhere.  I have known parents who have spent hundreds of pounds as payment in lieu to honour school T&Cs even if they won’t even think twice about sending their DCs back to classes. I understand that there are always those who move around schools for minor reasons but I’d like to believe that a majority of parents would only do so for valid reasons related to their child’s progress and wellbeing.  I would not want to continue to pay hard earned money somewhere I feel my child isn’t thriving. What might have been a good fit a few years ago might not be now and we’ve had the pleasure of engaging with teachers who are willing to collaborate or even refer DCS to other schools and teachers (ie ‘’my school cannot offer that level of [dance] but I can ask around other local schools if any of them do” or “My school doesn’t offer contemporary but I have invited so and so to offer a masterclass during the school holidays”). I would be wary of teachers who are not willing to work with other teachers and schools or ones who discourage students from attending masterclasses or intensives. 

17 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Alison, you are right  it is a matter of professional courtesy.  Many schools continue for decades and the relationship between them is important and can last a very long time. Word soon gets round if a teacher behaves unprofessionally, and it seems "poaching" is more common these days.  On the other hand, teachers all suffer from time-wasters too. People who want to come for a trial class but don't turn up, or take the class with little intention of continuing. So do not be surprised if teachers want some sign of commitment before offering a trial.

I can understand the point about time wasters but what kind of sign of commitment would these teachers require? This seems to be against the idea of a trial which I take to mean as both the potential student and the teacher trying to see if the school and/or class is the right ‘fit’ for the student and what the student is looking for. The best schools we have trialled are those whose teachers reply to my initial contact to enquire what my child and I are looking for and, where relevant and appropriate, asks for a brief background on the child’s dancing experience to date. This often gives them a good idea right away if their school is a good fit for the child without wasting both parties’ time. Some schools charge a minimal fee for class trials. And some schools would actually tell the parent not to commit or get uniform yet until they are sure their child would be settled and happy there and then invoice retrospectively. 

3 hours ago, Betty said:

 

 

From the music world, I’ve found my kids to be very poor judges when it comes to making changes - they feel loyal to their teachers and want things to stay the same. We’ve changed music schools and teachers listening to our gut feelings as adults and looking back the kids now say these were the right decisions although they resisted at the time and had to trust our judgement. I also think it is healthy to have more than one teacher for something.

 

This is so sad but so true. Children can be very loyal to a fault and often they won’t tell you the whole picture because they don’t like change and would rather stay where they’re familiar with. Sometimes it’s only when you hear from others about how things are that confirms your gut instinct as a parent. Often I hear parents say, oh, I 100% will support what my kid wants but I always say at ages 9-14 (or even further along both ends), do they actually? They claim they do but precedent and a history of personal experiences and those of others we have seen prove otherwise. The number of times I’ve placed my DC in a new class when they’ve been hesitant to do so (I won’t know anyone there! What if they judge me?), and then end up loving it and being more settled and happy than they ever would have been in their previous situation/school. There is still a reason why we are the parents and they are the kids. 
 

I also totally agree with you on what you said about having more than one teacher, and I think this is so crucial especially as they get older. Don’t be stuck in a situation where a teacher or school is extremely possessive. That in itself is a massive red flag for me, a proper warning signal. Transparency and good communications is key but I know some teachers and schools will make this extremely difficult even if you wanted to be up front with them about your DCs pursuing activities with other teachers and schools (even when it’s not even related to ballet!). Sadly this happens so much, parents get stuck too and feel like they can’t go anywhere because of location or loyalty etc. I know of parents who know situations well and yet stay with the same schools, it’s a very tricky and difficult situation and I can understand your dilemma.

I agree with @Anna C, if Tring isn’t too bad to get to from yours, definitely email them and don’t worry about the audition dates. They’re very quick to respond and will let you know if she can audition outside of published audition dates. No harm trying. And the new RAD HQ looks brilliant too if your DD is interested in doing syllabus ballet. Hopefully there are options that won’t entail too much travel for you. I always did wonder why people would be willing to travel for hours and hours for classes. I often think it’s time wasted away from home and family. But that’s my personal opinion as I hate time wasted on travelling. I already complain about taking the train to the city weekly and it’s actually only about 45 mins (and quite a pleasant journey at that) 😂

2 minutes ago, Swanwings said:

I can confirm that they are currently still taught by Anna Du Boisson, who is still head of WLSD, it is a really good school.

That’s great. I remember Pre Senior being taught by Amber Doyle who’s also a brilliant teacher. They would sometimes combine the Senior and Pre-Senior classes too (as they’re on exactly the same time on Saturday mornings) so my DD has had the pleasure of being taught by both teachers. 

6 minutes ago, Anna C said:

Great idea!  Is TPA still entry by audition for teens?  I was just wondering if that might be more pressure than mumofaladybird’s dd wants, although I don’t know how competitive TPA auditions are.  If it’s more like a fun class in order to place dancers in the correct level, that would probably be fine.

I think DCs have to audition from when they’re 9 (though this might have changed) but my personal feeling is that this is more for TPA to be able to assess which classes/grades would suit the young dancer rather than the way, for example, RBS associates audition. So if I were to guess, it’s definitely more of the latter of what you said above.

Just to add that I agree for London, Danceworks and Pineapple have great timetables on Saturdays too. However, in our experience and depending on the class and teacher, the classes are very mixed (children up to adults) and some can be more ‘follow-along’ so not ideal if you’re after something which will help your DD progress through consistent feedback and attention as you would (in theory) in a dance school. I say this from experience. My DD has done many of these open classes and masterclasses since she was about 9. If you’re after a great non-syllabus ballet class with lots of feedback and attention (and excellent teaching) and more importantly with similar-aged young dancers, have a look at West London School of Dance’s Pre-senior/Senior ballet class. Both are held in Pineapple on Saturdays term time 9-10.30am. The classes are attended by YDA full time students (hence the standard is very good) but others can register via WLSD.  The Senior class is taught by Anna Du Boisson. I think it might still be but you’d need to contact WLSD to check. 

I found that the school with the best and most varied Saturday timetable sadly isn’t in London. If you can easily travel to Tring, do check out Tring Park Associates (TPA). Classes are held in the lovely Park Studios of Tring Park School. Even though it’s called “associates”, it’s not exactly like RBS or Central associates (I think Tring’s version of these is their CBA - Classical Ballet Academy).  TPA sounds like absolutely what you’re looking for. My DD spent an amazing few years doing TPA classes and their Saturday timetable has so much to offer (RAD grades, ISTD modern and tap, jazz, PBT, Street, contemporary, pointe, non-syllabus ballet, etc). My DD spent many wonderful Saturdays there, from morning to late afternoon, taking multiple classes. She was entered for syllabus exams and progressed well, obtaining excellent results. It was here where she first grew in confidence and her love for dance was nurtured.  
 

Your DD will also have the opportunity to make friends as they often spend time together during the breaks in between classes. We left before Covid so I’m not sure if it’s the same set up. Sadly, my DD can’t do Saturdays there anymore due to associates elsewhere but we would totally do it again if we had the chance.  It’s a brilliant arrangement, teachers are great, the whole atmosphere is very nurturing and friendly and inclusive (we never experienced drama or competitiveness, which sadly we found is now often prevalent in a lot of dance schools). My DD always felt like she was seen as an individual, everyone was made to feel special in their own way and never did we feel any real or perceived favouritism. This was a few years ago so I hope things have remained the same as I would highly recommend. Again, this is our personal experience so others might think otherwise. 

2 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

The employment prospects in Classical Ballet at present are very bleak indeed. Companies are just not taking dancers now and with the difficulties that Brexit has brought regarding visas it’s not looking good for the future. There are very VERY FEW vocational schools in the world good enough to produce classical dancers good enough to get one of those (very rare) jobs.

This seems spot on. Just yesterday I saw a top EU vocational school announce their students who I believe received contracts into the company’s corps and there were only 3 females and 1 male. All of whom appear to be nationals of that country. Just a few years ago, I’m pretty sure it was almost double that number from that school into their company including at least one international student.  Also within the last few days I saw an announcement about joiners and leavers for a U.K. company and within the leavers section were at least two dancers who only joined the company at the start of the season in what I assumed to have been (at the time) permanent contracts (rather than per show), though I could be wrong.

If she is interested in doing dance long term, from age 11, and would want the stability of being in the same school for at least the first 5 years (preferably on to the ‘upper school’ of the same school, if they have one), I would urge you to look at the recent years’ progression statistics of the schools you are interested in auditioning for. These stats present a very telling story, especially if you are after stability and the mental well-being of not being under pressure all the time.  How many of those who start in year 7 are still there in year 11? How many of those progress on to their schools’ upper school/sixth form/etc and for those who don’t, where do they end up going?  Is the school system structured in a way that students get to nurture their love for dance and not be under constant scrutiny and pressure to keep their place? Of those who leave before they finish from the school, why did they leave? When they leave, is their love for dance still intact?