BeaverElliot

It is worthwhile I think to note the point that was being made regarding what might be characterized as ballet’s inbred, native, built-in culture of obedience. There exist traditional pedagogical attitudes which get passed down and perpetuated within a kind of at times cult-like mentality, some of which is a set of arbitrary, socially constructed beliefs rooted in thinking from centuries past, based on my readings and observations. Subordinated, disempowered individuals within an authoritarian hierarchy that can reward and punish will simply not just ‘speak up’ despite the abuse and torment... due to systemic beliefs and attitudes or culture whereby complaints are not well received, supported nor handled. Otherwise, why would it have taken so long for a significant, long standing, institutionalized shortcoming to have come to light? What role does top management have in down-playing any reported troubles? Thin, underweight female performers apparently has its origins with a certain, noted choreographer and is justified as a prescriptive, aesthetic ideal of the art form, much like the adoration of unnatural ankle-foot extension and turn out. Whether ballet can self reform is an intriguing proposition. Ballerina: Sex, Scandal and Suffering Behind the Symbol of Perfection D. Kelly Ballet Across Borders: Career and Culture in the World of Dancers H. Wulff

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5460858/mediaindex?ref_=tt_mv_sm https://www.cinemaclock.com/movies/the-white-crow-2018 (photos)

Is not Artists of the Company simply a euphemism for generic ballet dancers who are company members. (I haven’t heard of the term being used as a rank within the company.)

Being able to witness a company class is like visiting a work place (because for company members it IS their place of work, just like the theatre is for their performances.) Many work places permit visitors when it doesn’t interfere with the work being done, so it’s up to the management to determine the benefits versus the costs of allowing visitors, how often and when. (Even dance studios invite parents and family members to be observers of classes on occasion.) Dancers are routinely exercising and conditioning themselves in a class, not necessarily rehearsing usually, and are very used to being observed and scrutinized during their classes throughout the many years of their training and careers. They are generally well adept at focusing their attention, concentrating on what they are doing and need to get done, and ignoring routine distractions. (Rehearsals following class, however, I can imagine to be closed (restricted) and free of any distractions, as work of a different nature perhaps needs to get done.) Company management would set and enforce the protocol governing permissible behaviors, irrespective of age. I don’t know that the delivering of an exquisite meditative experience would be a priority for a daily class as compared to giving a performance for which ticket prices and audience expectations are quite high.

@Colman Very cool! Many other guys in your RAD sessions?

Digression... I guess that it may boil down to a question of dancing for oneself vs dancing for others (same for any other form of self expression), or some mutual combination, thereof; expressing personal truths vs. (at the extreme) making a living. If nobody is in the forest does the falling tree make any sound? It’s invariably the ‘who cares?’ ‘does it matter?’ ‘is it relevant to one’s society?’ issues perhaps. How does stage dance (like ballet) differ from grass roots, village, folk dance? High culture? Who’s to say?

@Colman wow that sounds very enterprising of you! May I ask you to elaborate more about the differences (features) of the four diff curric classes you are engaged in? You mean to say that you are attending dance four times per week? And not doing any open / drop in / non-syllabus? (where curric = syllabus). I think you might have a blog(?) that I once read.

@Kate_N Sorry that you found my style and format of responding to your earlier comment so novel. It is a technique whereby comment responses are intentionally dovetailed, rather than quoting. That being said, I prefaced my comments by explaining I used Upper Case font in order to make my comments stand out visually, because ordinarily the way to do this in dovetailed responding is by setting them off in a different colour, or by using italic or bold face... but that this isn’t possible on this forum. So I explained that I resorted to using Upper Case for that reason and was //not// yelling. Sorry if this aspect escaped you. Getting back to the OP’s concerns and the digressions, I am happy to read what everyone has shared because I have learned and benefitted quite a lot from reading every comment. Agreed that in order to be able to best excel artistically (expressively), one has to be able to first master the craft via some appropriate progression of technical personal development: attain a level of competence. (I am assuming that the quality of teaching is high (otherwise why pay for it?); take it for granted as it’s a given.) Art and science; heart and head; intuition and cognition: spontaneity and intention, but founded on a strong, not incorrect physical and mental foundation is how I have been perceiving and processing the challenges myself, as an adult late starter who can never go back in time to pick it up the ‘right’ way (i.e. from age 8-18). I wish the OP all the best pursuing his passion(s) in his next chapter. I hope he will write back here and share how things are going ballet-wise. All great classical dancers probably were examination takers at some point. But probably not all examination takers turn out to be great classical dancers.

@Polik from the following links you can gain some insight into how syllabus graded ballet (a way of packaging and progressing) is just but one part or aspect of classical dance overall. https://www.boysballetlondon.com/non-syllabus-ballet refers to RAD recommendation to supplement graded syllabus together with non-syllabus training https://www.boysballetlondon.com/ballet-technique-class refers to male technique classes supplemental to RAD syllabus, non-syllabus snd choreographic training https://www.boysballetlondon.com/ballet-choreography refers to learning works of dance, i.e. choreographic sequences and staging, performing. There’s lighting, costumes, makeup, mime and gestures, cues, marks, entrances, exits... all components of the ballet product, which is ultimately a form of entertainment.

Could we say that all three or four of the approaches under discussion share a common end goal (if we focus only upon vocationally oriented training and recognize that each approach defines its own top (advanced) level, one that corresponds generally with the mid to late teenage years); is this a reasonable assertion I wonder? So there is some sort of rational progression structure in place conceived by design (some kind of syllabus) with or without examinations. That end goal would be to prepare youth to qualify for entry level into the professional ranks. Are all of these pathways equally effective at facilitating this aim and is there an objective way for us to know this? All other things being equal, then one could benefit from pursuing any one of these pathways?

Kate made some interesting points for me... (My ideas are set off in UPPER CASE, not shouting, as I can’t embolden or italicize). Bravo for this approach! /AGREED INDEED I never really understand the focus on particular curricula & syllabi - they are a means to an end. The exams are simply way posts to show you your progress from an outsider's point of view. IT COULD BE A GUY THING HERE, WHERE THE MEANS IS ALSO AN IMPORTANT CONSIDERATION I VENTURE. Ballet is ballet. I've studied RAD and Cechetti syllabi, and can show you in my body, the basic differences between them - but they are of nuance and style, not differences in the fundamentals. EXACTLY; TURN OUT IS TURN OUT. HAMBURGERS AND BUNS! As adults, I think we are capable of adapting to and learning from a variety of teaching styles, and we also need the challenge of open/drop in classes, where we have to learn simple choreography in the exercises at the barre & centre. The effort of remembering the exercise set on each class, plus executing it with as best a level of technique as we have, sets up far more active learning (proprioception) than repeating the same exercise in every class. PRRIOCEPTION IS SENSING INTUITIVELY WHERE ONE’S BODY IS IN SPACE, SO WHETHER SET MOVEMENTS OR FREE ONES, CORRECTIONS (AND VIDEO) WILL ENABLE ONE TO VERIFY (IMPROVE) THE ACURACY OF ONE’S SENSE I BELIEVE. REPEATING EXACT MOVEMENTS AND PERFECTING THE MOST MINUTE DETAILS (REPRODUCABLE PRECISION WITH ARTISTRY, MUSICALITY, ETC.) ARE WHAT PROFESSIONAL DANCERS ARE CALLED UPON TO DO TO PREPARE FOR PERFORMANCE, IS ANOTHER WAY TO LOOK AT ROUTINES. CHOREOGRAPHY IS ‘SET’ ON DANCERS AFTER ALL. (I WOULD EXPECT SET BARRE AND CENTRE EXERCISES IDEALLY TO RELATE TO THE CHOREOGRPAHY FOR THE MOST PART and VICE VERSA.) This is the principle of cross training in athletics: you never let your body get used to doing only one thing in a regular pattern. DOES THE RAD SYLLABUS LACK IN VARIETY? DO MORE VAGANOVA OR CECCHETTI OR RAD ADVANCED STUDENTS DO BETTER AT VARNA, GENEE AND OTHER TOP ADJUDICATED ASSESSMENTS (ADJUSTED FOR THE RELATIVE POPULATIONS OF EACH COMMUNITY OF ADHERENTS) I WONDER. HOW DOES EACH STACK UP STATISTICALLY SPEAKING?

@Cathy Great to hear that the mixed uni society bag (my experience as well) worked out well for your DS. This was exactly my point, that there are some unique and worthwhile ballet-related opportunities that only are available when packaged as a unisociety, despite the potential for uneven quality. Real teachers and peer teachers are not the same product (obviously) but university life is meant to be a broadening experience of growing self discovery and independence. Normal ballet delivery is so hierarchial, strict, obedient and predictable, right? Surely 6-8 years of this provides a terrific base of discipline. University is a new chapter and a chance for emerging adults to try on other models and approaches. Some uni students find the time to do both society and adult classes.

@Polik a) I think it’s not the age at which you start, so much as what level you are currently attaining. Some people start later but catch up; some start earlier but are slower so take longer to progress to reach the equivalent stage; it depends on factors like one’s natural talent, number of hours invested per week, focus and determination, quality of teaching, etc. As you are near the end of ISTD’s graded (elementary) technical level, you can probably soon consider yourself to be entering the intermediate level technically. You have acquired the basic technical and artistic skills and can continue to build on this base. Open adult classes at a (true) intermediate (and advanced) level will surely be technically challenging for you, so appealing. But these classes are not meant to lead to an examinable standard, unless it is, say, adult ISTD or RAD Intermediate, or another examined technical syllabus. The class will be taught whatever the specific teacher happens to desire, it will be up to them generally, I think is how it usually works out. So what you will be taught technically will be influenced by whatever style or approach the teacher is bent on delivering; it will be up to her or him, what he or she knows stylistically how to deliver. If you go to different intermediate class providers you probably will be taught different things at an intermediate level, there won’t be standardization. Nothing wrong with this variation in offerings, so long as the technique you are shown is of a good, high quality and you are finding the process enjoyable and satisfying technically. b) I have been exposed to RAD, Cecchetti, Vaganova, Bolshoi, Balanchine and Bournonville classes and teachers. These are various styles or approaches to ballet learning, like your ISTD training is as well. My point is, that if you possess the basics in any one (or more) of the styles, then the concepts and techniques you have already learned will be nominally transferrable and applicable to some degree (though not interchangable with) among the various formats, generally speaking. Meaning that they all share things in common (they are all ballet after all e.g. port de bras, use of head, line, alignment; they all share root principles governed by physics, classical dance aesthetics and biomechanics), so you dont have to go right back down to the junior grades of another system in order to follow it; you simply adapt and adjust so as to transition to the different approach. In fact, some believe in mastering or specializing in only one style ‘purely’, whereas others believe that drawing from multiple styles can make you into a more versatile artist. (If you have learned to cook hamburgers at Wimpy’s, then you can probably adjust to cooking hamburgers at MacDonald’s without having to start over back at square one, is a very crude analogy.) That being said, the terminology will vary inconsistently (e.g. different terms used for same move; same term used for different moves; same word used differently; wall and corner numbering systems vary yet all ways are based on an octagon). So no matter how you can approach next year, I think you can find the sort of technical challenges you seek.

A professional ballet company generally has a certain number of dancers on its payroll. When a company wants to mount a production that has more roles on stage to fill than there are people in the company, they look for other performers from outside of or beyond the company ranks to fill those additional roles. Super means above, so supernumerary performers refers to extra, supplemental performers, over and above the complement of performers in the company. These extra personnel take on minor roles, such as servants, guards, bystanders, heralds, pages for example. There may be modest stipends paid for covering out of pocket expenses, possibly pay, it depends . (Guest artists are not supers.) So it is a free lance, one off gig.

From ISTD’s web shop it appears that there are general examined grades (up to grade 6), and class examination levels (up to level 8). Both the Imperial Classical Ballet and the Cecchetti Classical Ballet faculties provide distinct Int.Fnd and Intermediate syllabi.

Polik wrote: “Pretty sure it is imperial, I've never seen the word Cecchetti on any of my certificates/anywhere else before. Is Cecchetti similar?” Cecchetti methodology or approach is the ballet dance genre (‘faculty’) formally affiliated to and incorporated with the ISTD, according to their website: https://www.istd.org/about-us/documents/istd-cecchetti-faculty-history/1istd-cecchetti-history.pdf

@youngatheart so do you mean to say that the ISTD offers their own versions of Int.Fndn and Intermediate levels? (And if so, then how would they compare to the RAD’s versions, I wonder.) Very helpful to learn about the final graded ISTD level!

@Polik Here are a few thoughts based on the experiences of an adult late starting male... 1. Wherever you train, there is bound to be an abundance or dominance of female students (and, more often, teachers). This has a few implications for us ballet-inclined guys, including I doubt that you will be able to pick up male technique as readily (as compared to training in a pre-pro academy environment where there are many male student peers who attend male technique classes together as part of their vocational development curriculum). Given that you have been following the ‘graded examination track’ approach all along (starting out with RAD 1,2; then switching over to ISTD) want to continue in this vein, and don’t wish to pursue ballet as a potential career, your development as a male classical dance artist will be, by definition, shaped and constrained by the graded curriculum structure. I don’t know the ISTD curriculum, whereas I know that the RAD does prescribe technical requirements that are MALE-specific starting from (around) grade 3 I believe; so this could be a PLUS for you I would think. it would depend on how important you think it is for you to be developing masculine ballet traits, ballet being traditionally so very binary, so to speak. (If the ISTD curriculum also does prescribe male-specific technical moves and choreography in its syllabi, then perhaps somebody with knowledge of same can provide some details for you below.) Girls will work on pointe eventually in the more senior grades, whether under RAD, Cecchetti, Vaganova (and I suppose ISTD too). But boys ought to be able to acquire masculine bravura know how as they develop, I am of the opinion. Another consideration for you might be that the RAD offers two streams (as does Cecchetti; I am not sure about ISTD once again), namely: graded (“recreational”) and vocational (“pre-pro”) streams. The former syllabi run grades 1 through 8, and I believe is meant to parallel a students’s life from roughly ages 8-18, so around 10 years from childhood through one’s teenage years. The latter syllabi are Intermediate Foundation, Intermediate, Advanced Foundation, Advanced 1, Advanced 2 culminating in Solo Seal (if my memory serves me correctly. This scheme supercedes the older /elementary /intermediate /advanced categorizations.). These vocational levels under the RAD are examined. Depending on who you speak to, what level one is at, one’s capabilities and facility, and one’s age, it is at around grade 5 that a person can move into Intermediate Foundation, that is, switch over from the graded recreational scheme to the examined vocational scheme. Some talented boys I think have started ballet for the first time by enrolling in Int.Fndn; or went into Int.Fndn after passing their grade 4 exam. Therefore, maybe now is not a bad time for you to assess and confirm your needs for examined syllabus ballet training vis a vis what opportunities and technical pathways might be afforded to you via: continuing to pursue ISTD, switching to RAD graded, or to RAD vocational (even though for the latter you don’t aspire to a career). Because... Int.Fndn and Intermediate vocational classes for boys might be more available to you than classes for grades 6-8 for boys, given student demand versus school supplier realities. PLUS the RAD lets you order and purchase the published male curriculum examination standards, as well as demonstration videos, and I have found these resources to be extremely helpful for understanding and learning male technique in particular as it is all spelled out (including Benish Notation choreogaphy). I dont know that the other systems (ISTD, Cecchetti, Vaganova) allow their copyright materials to ‘fall into the hands’ of students. Owning the published curriculum means that you will also be able to learn the terminology (in english and french) associated with all of the prescribed techniques, enchainements, etc. (I speak a bit of French and, like you, like to master the ballet vocabulary, espressions and descriptions!). The RAD also publishes their ‘blue book’ (and more advanced ‘red book’) which explains all of the RAD technical material that an RAD-accredited teacher is expected to know.) 2. Regarding Open (drop in) Adult Classes... my experience in this realm has been that rarely is this approach examined in accordance with a graded syllabus (because there is so low of a demand for such training formats). The range of ability of participants varies and the level and frequency of technical corrections provided varies from low to medium, not up at the higher level needed to pass examinations. So if corrections and technical proficiency and progressive mastery are important to you, then you will need to research whether the open adult class opportunities available to you will truly meet your needs. 3. As an emerging adult classical dance enthusiast and amateur artist who is male, do you wish to learn to partner female danseuses (pas de deux, trois, quartre, cinq)? Do you ever wish to perform? These might be other aspects for you to take into consideration as you look at entering into higher grade or intermediate vocational classes. 4. Regarding university student ballet groups... this was one of the best ways I have ever found to develop as an adult, late starting, male dancer... because they typically involve quite accomplished female ballet enthusiasts (technically more proficient than you and me), who like to work on choreography (not just simply barre, centre and across the floor class routines), and are a social, peer age group (unless they hire a non-university student aged teacher or class leader, in which case the learning environment is more similiar to attending a typical secondary school level dance studio or dance school class where there is an adult:young student i.e. superior:subordinate relationship structure, versus a peer-aged young adult group dynamic, if senior university student ballet dancers lead junior university student ballet dancers)... it is a way different and beneficial vibe and dynamic from a typical studio (dance instruction business) learning experience in my estimation, students leading and teaching their fellow students who are peer groupies. (And by the time you reach your final year at uni, you can possibly also be in a position or and elected or appointed peer leadership role within the dancer grouo to lead juniors and ‘give back’ some of what you have been fortunate to have acquired over your years of dancing. The leadership experience can also help to strengthen your CV for after you have graduated, is another plus.) These are just my broad oversights and generalizations (and evidence-based beliefs), so should you or others desire clarification or further explanation if I have not been clear, or have struck a chord, please do comment to that effect below as I am very interested to learn what other people have experienced or heard of. Research is a good thing!

In North America (CAN & USA) I have come to realize that it is not unheard of for A-list companies to recruit individuals to be cast in supernumerary roles for the run of a production. This applies to the more elaborately staged ‘period costume dramas’, where having a sizable number of extras up on stage helps to create a visually grand scène, given that very few companies nowadays can afford to keep a really large company employed. So I have started this topic to learn what other people’s direct experiences have been like: applying / auditioning for super roles; and through which companies and types of productions did they gain their insights. Maybe in Europe it is rarer for super roles to be offered(?). What did you find satisfying (or otherwise) about the experience of being up on stage with A-list professionals, however minor was your role?

1. Were the intensives you once attended in the USA... Sun King Adult Dance Camp? 2. Would Aspire ever consider also including (daily) pas de deux sessions as options for interested male and female registrants, as part of choreography/ rep / variations? Partnering experience is certainly the one thing that is challenging to acquire as an adult enthusiast, so there is a real need I think. I know of only one such class (at Ballet Arts in Manhattan across from Carnegie Hall). They are too far and few between.