SwissBalletFan

Sorry maybe it is just his last performance. He is already a ballet master there.

It seems from Twitter that Ricardo Cervera has confirmed he is to leave RB and will dance his last performance on 12th December. https://twitter.com/BBB_Mrs/status/673142434935742464

I am sorry to be very dim-witted, but who could she be thinking of?

I cannot believe in any way that chooses his music, set design and lighting so fantastically would leave costume to another person without a large input and of course the right to veto anything they would not like. In a very collaborative world of ballet and choreography. I know that we have discussed how the salaries are so low, but apart from that, I think all of the people there to support the dancers only want to help and work with the dancers to produce the best results possible. I would hope (and actually know directly of many cases) that the choreographer would explain their reasons for any artistic choices, such as sexual scenes, nudity, or sexual content, and allow the dancer to suggest an acceptable alternative or leave the role. One of which being here in Stuttgart and shown in a national newspaper. http://www.berliner-zeitung.de/kultur/choreographie--tanz-ist-tiefer-als-schauspiel-und-oper-,10809150,15216302.html

Haha you made me laugh, thank you Mary. I understand your view of frills or drapery, but still, I still think the comment that 'MacGregor doesn't care about the audience' isn't true. If people really have a problem, then I guess they wouldn't see his work. I think he is just staying with his art and who he is,and it really seems minimalism is who he is. it reminded me of this article on MacGregor's house in WSJ. http://www.wsj.com/articles/famed-choreographer-wayne-mcgregor-restores-a-home-1441290756 I am sure a lot of people would also say that it needs some frills or drapery too

I have never been to the ROH, but I have been to most of the important houses in the world, and usually sit in the orchestra seats, and for the life of me, I have never had the time to see any exposure of the nether regions. I must get my eyes tested Or maybe I do not understand the sensitivity that women may have to this region. However I have to say that speaking to the dancers at the Premiere Party after Kairos and hearing what the dancers male and female had to say, was that it was 'life changing' to work with Macgregor and that the dancers themselves often are allowed to choose their own moves and ways of expressing themselves based upon words or feelings he uses. Dancers also said they loved his use of language in getting them to express themselves. Then he acted as a conductor he used these movements to bring it together in a great piece. In Kairos (5 stars in the guardian for the appearance at the Edinburgh festival) there is a part where 5/6 female dancers are dancing and leaning against a wall with some potentially revealing poses, (though tights are indeed being warn) and these moves were the choice of all of the female dancers, who from, what I gather really could tell Magregor what they liked and what they didn't like.

I believe that the Twitter discussion can be separated into 2 different points. 1) The issue that started the debate by Mr Jennings that asked is it correct that such a photo should be released for publication by an Opera House? ROH released it, and I think all (including Wayne Macgregor) said that is was not a flattering photo at all, and it shouldn't have been used. On this I think all can agree. 2) The conversation then spilled into whether the choreography and its context was fundamental behind the form/art and therefore the photo. I cannot speak about WW specifically as I have not seen it, but having seen Wayne Macgregors works in Zurich and elsewhere, the tight leotard costumes are no different to anything such as 'In the middle somewhat elevated'. Also some of the forms and body parts presented by 'In the middle' are no different to his choreographies that I have seen. My judgement is that Wayne Macgregor is not guilty of releasing the photo, which it should not have been at all. He is also not guilty of producing 'crotch-obsessed' or overly sexual choreographies when placed in context to other choreographers, of which I could name many. The point about a 20 year old girl in a tight fitting costume where you can see her nipples, is really most modern choreographies, and typical of most in a 'Triple Bill' setting. Purely on a biological note, nipples become more prominent for all dancers due to the athletic ability and a lot of curtain calls this can be noticed on M and F dancers. I speak as a heterosexual man when I say that, in this day and age, I very much doubt many people are going to the ballet for any titilation in that respect, and in the outfits and context of the choreography, I can certainly see Macgregor's point about the form and the abstract over 'crotch-obsessed' choreography. It would be akin to someone pointing out things in a yoga class, and in this way I agree with Macgregors pointed statement in that what LJ takes from these moves is in the eyes of the beholder, and it is more a representation of what LJ sees in a photo that shouldn't have been released anyway. I think also, that as a 'friend of the ballet member' in Switzerland, fans are invited to watch selected classes' in the mornings, to which point I would feel terrible if I thought that some of the female dancers might think, he is watching me in a sexual element when a leg is raised at all. Which is certainly not the reason I or many watch the ballet at all. From my forays into this forum, I also understand how many take Wayne Macgregors language as direct or offensive, and I am sure the flock would be on him for saying anything like he has on a forum. However he was talking to a 'Critic' who you might imagine has a thicker skin than most.

In a separate forum discussion it was discussed that Polunin 'Trumps' Coviello on Strength and Technique, which I could agree to, however it reminded me of the Kids game 'Top Trumps'. First I wondered what would be the 5 characteristics by which you would judge all Ballet Dancers male and female? I would proffer: Technique/Acrobatics Acting Skills /Style Stage presence/Energy Classical Lines/Proportion Beauty After a set of characteristics is agreed I would say a game of offering the scores of dancers Top Trumps of ballet characters as chosen by Scottish Ballet http://www.scottishballet.co.uk/kids-section/trumps-game2.html

I think it would be a great charity exercise to create a Ballet Dancer Top Trumps card set as agreed by BalletcoForum If you don't know the game, there is a ballet character Top Trump set by Scottish Ballet Here: http://www.scottishballet.co.uk/kids-section/trumps-game2.html

I enjoy very much your descriptions of the dancers and each comes along as very polite and flattering. Ballet i think is very much a matter of taste, I can appreciate Polunin's technical abilities, but I prefer my dancers to make me believe the characters in both dance, appearance, and acting. I saw Polunin in Giselle with Zakharova, where his technical dancing was nice, but at no time, am I 'taken in' by the performance of his. In this performance it seemed like a 'upside down' Giselle, where Zakharova was the nobel princess and Polunin the farmer guy. I saw Bolle Zakharova partnership this season, and Roberto Bolle was amazing as the Nobel, learned, 'naive' and kind Des Grieux, taken in by Manon. I believe that my 'One Eye' would choose Coviello in this role rather Polunin. Also, I saw 'Polunin replacement' Jacopo Tissi in Ratmansky's Sleeping Beauty with Zakharova who was personally chosen by Zakharova as the replacement who was on his first year after school. (I remember posting complaining I wanted to see Polunin, after originally booking for Hallberg) Tissi was amazing, tall and fantastic in the role. Also there were some very strong rumours in the theatre on that night, that Polunin refused to dance in the role as Ratmanksy's prince as there was very little dancing for the Prince (which is correct in the choreography) and that the 'neck pain' was just an excuse that was understood by the house. I remember thinking at the time that Polunin may regret that. (This part is separate in case it does not pass House rules)

Good morning all. I unreservedly apologise for using the words I did to describe taxi4ballet's post, and accept that she did not mean it in the way I read it. I appreciate how the Forum posters have supported her, I would however in some way, also would have appreciated a little more understanding about my view, but I will be more careful about the words I use in future. Enjoy your Sundays

Ok Taxi4balletl you made a liar of me. by me posting again. But ok. Here goes... You posted one sentence with a smiley, which had no context, and taken even factually was not supportive of the pay of ballet dancers. Now, after many responses of you saying 'how dare I criticise' ' how dare I question?' you still have not really explained what you meant by your one liner. I haven't apologised to you taxi directly because I find I have no reason. I have tried at length in 3 posts to explain what I meant, whilst you have been supported by other forum members and still as yet not elaborated on the meaning of your post, apart from 'it has a smiley at the end so its ok whatever I meant.' I feel I have not been aggressive after my post saying that I felt that your salary comparison was cruel, silly, etc. My words I would not say are great, but they were already being used by someone in the forum about someone who asked 'do you drink a litre of cider each day?'. Now in context, my family members include corps in the UK, and in Europe. Friends in Switzerland and Europe. All of which have trained longer than any other profession and are paid less. Their lives are not easy and on a financial level can be quite embarrassing to the levels they have to go to, even when senior members of a company. Oh and after the age of 30s they have to find another income without training. So, in terms of supportiveness, happiness, and not having fear of posting our individual feelings or thoughts. I don't think I have tried to offend, or accuse, and I have added to this forum section about a present for a dance teacher. I also from my acquaintances post about my knowledge regarding the workings of events at senior level at top european companies in other parts of the forum. TOI TOI TOI to your daughter Sir.

Ok, well I believe I have apologised and I will not prostrate myself any further. Taxi4ballet, i am not a regular poster of 'doing dance', this will be my last post in 'your section'. It seems that the rules here may be different to other parts of the forum, and the community clearly has a different idea of who and what can be posted here. I have family members, and very good friends that are in professional companies not being paid very much, and the (smiley) doesn't quite cover the difficulties of being in a profession that is not only difficult, but also poorly paid, even for those that are very successful. Thanks for the introduction to the 'cut throat' world of 'Doing Dance'.

Ok, my position is this: I think it is not nice that someone said that Georgie was too fat, or to assume that it was due to drinking a litre of cider a day. I think Georgie seems like an amiable and nice enough person on the programme that is called ' I am a celebrity get me out of here' (not hollyoaks) The general theme of this thread was (i paraphrase) poor Georgie, and the people who called her fat are mean and not typical of Hammond in Cheshire. (I agree) Then came the one line (She's probably earning a lot more than the average ballet dancer now! ) No I can only assume what was meant by this sentence. Which was along the lines that she is ok, she is earning more than a ballet dancer and is therefore a success, and potentially more successful than the average ballet dancer. Now, I get the points taken against what I have said, from Harwel and Tulip. My view is, great for Georgie that she got an acting job and didn't let people affect her career or view of her dreams. (Great!!!!) I just find that the comparison that she is paid more than ballet dancers was not helpful, or of interest to any dancer who is lucky enough to get a role in a company. This was my point. Georgie can be a success, Ballet dancers can be a success, and all can be well. The fact that one may be paid more than another is in my view not a magnitude of success, rather than the current perceived value of talent by society. For better or worse. Similar to a nurse vs most careers etc. I have really tried to explain my opinion and view taxi4ballet.

It is not a personal sleight about taxi. However I feel that commenting 'She's probably earning a lot more than the average ballet dancer now! ;)' is not exactly appropriate, though everyone is of course open to their opinions and their views. It is a forum after all. I just feel ballet dancers and their disproportionately low earnings is not a benchmark for 'success' when comparing to someone who is on a programme just to 'be famous' to me personally .life is more about art, self respect, and creation. Just my view, no offence meant.

Sorry Tulip, you did not use a quote to give the context you meant to your quote. I thought you were referring too the whole issue. I was 'hijacking' your sentiment to say that I think that Taxi4ballet's comments were cruel and shocking. Apologies.

Silly and cruel I think Taxi4ballet to even think that it is even fair or a good thing that the average ballet dancer earns so little. But unlike rent-a-celebs, ballet dancers don't do it for the money. She seems nice enough with the little time I have seen, so nothing against her, but please lets not dismiss the hard working ballet dancers who earn so little to even think of giving it up to think of her as a role model for the 'fame or money'.

Thank you Ian. I was aware of Vaziev going to the Bolshoi, but I was asking the effect that MAB thought this has on Osipova or the scheduling. I am surprised if MAB would think that there is a huge connection and/or 'no one had worked it out'. (No offence meant at all MAB) I thought that maybe there was some second-order of connection to it, so I asked. Vaziev is going to the Bolshoi, so Osipova is now appearing there as a guest, and in London. She will also be taking over Zakharova's Don Q in March at La Scala. However Vaziev denied Osipova's wish of dancing with Polunin for Manon, neither is she dancing with him for Don Q, even though it would of course be a delightful event for (Polipova/ Ospinunin) There must be some Brangelina shortening now for this amazing, inspirational, notorious partnership. It seems a bit of give and take, in terms of scheduling rather than special treatment for her, to me at least. Unless I am missing something, which is very much usually the case.

? To what are you referring MAB?

To be fair to Ms Osipova, I think the title and subject of this thread gives enough evidence of 'diva behaviour' to talk about now. I think we should give Ms Osipova the benefit of the doubt regarding her future performances or diva behaviour as 'hope springs eternal'. When she returns to the stage, she may find her love, energy and dancing replaces her inner diva. It rather reminds me of a popular advert for a peanut chocolate bar on UK television. I think that not performing or being injured brings out the worst in a dancer. Lets hope, she gets back to the Osipova audiences know and love Advert is here:

Nice research Andy, I guess with Osipova's changing guestings and performances, I think a new calendar/organiser would make a lovely gift for Christmas In terms of making the performances, the RB performance is the last of the run, so it should be pretty settled by then. Flying between performances is a factor of today's in demand ballet dancers. I think Salenko did a hat-trick of Berlin-RB-Berlin in three nights at some point this/last season.

This reads like a Romeo & Juliet style tragedy, with the previously lovely and energetic Osipova, becoming a bit stubborn and unreliable, and now tells an opera house where she is a guest that she refuses to dance with a talent of La Scala, only with her BF? What is the English Phrase...'Have the patients taken over the Asylum'? It seems luckily not at La Scala, where they stuck to their home talent, and an obliging and talented guest in Sarah Lamb. Toi Toi Toi to them both.

I remember an interview with Ms Harvey of ABT and RB. She very modestly said that her career was 'outlasting the other dancers and filling in when they were injured' she said that she could clearly hear the moans and groans of people in the auditorium as they announced the cast change. For her it was some motivation, but she could understand in some way, but thought 'I love to dance, and will take any chance to do it'. I am paraphrasing from memory, but just to demonstrate that from the artist's point, it is a great chance, and they may be conscious of what the audience are thinking. For them though, it is a great chance, and could be a great time of their lives, if not a platform to launch their career. Last season a corps member was injured on the night of a production of Giselle, a student in the local school was backstage being introduced to the cast as a treat. They asked her if she could step in... word quickly spread in the cast and auditorium, I don't quite remember such a large applause for the CdB or a smile of a cast member Your disappointment is a dream chance for the new artist, I hope that would give you the patience and happiness to wish them on with support too. Although it isn't ideal, I agree.

Sorry Geoff, you are missing my very poor knowledge of the UK ballet companies/theatres. Yes Sadler's Wells. For my poor logic, I thought, if it isn't RB then its ENB in London company wise. Thanks for pointing it out if it isn't correct. I will start researching better. Sorry ENBLover.

To be honest, when I look at the posts above, I see the person who started the post saying about Kaufmann and her poor luck, and the issue being exacerbated by the Osipova in what I read to be quite light hearted way. Then some support and I tried to further the discussion by introducing the La Scala cancellation and David Hallberg etc... I find it infinitely more positive to add a point that furthers the discussion in a way that is beneficial to all members. I know that 'shewhoshouldnotbenamed' and her man have decided to guest with ENB, but I still think some sympathy can be reserved for the 'noisy lot across the street' to complain of their bad luck as much as you can be happy with yours. (until they cancel of course ) My view is that posts to the point that 'stop this', 'this is negative' 'this is bad' are more negative and divisive, than simply ignoring or furthering the discussion. I find this infinitely the polite thing to do when at parties or dinner with people I have just met. Let's all try to be more Lady Edith than Lady Mary at Downtown?