Stats: Associates into full time school (upper/sixth form)

[Neverdancedjustamum]

One only has to quickly browse the topics on this forum to realise that the topic of associates takes up a lot of space. And why not? A good number of parents spend a lot of time and money on these schemes for what must be good reason. And whilst one can argue that associates are only normally once a week and don’t really comprise or reflect the entirety of a young dancer’s training, it’s such an important and well-discussed topic not just on this forum but I’m sure in lots of ballet parents chats in-person and online and in WhatsApp groups and convos. I’ve seen the question “Are they worth it?” raised more than once and there will always be numerous various reasons for the pros and cons. But information that can be obtained, which often isn’t talked about on this forum is the number of associates of vocational schools who get offered a full time place. I’m not sure if this is permitted to be discussed on here but surely if they are from personal experience and the posters are willing to divulge the information, it should be okay?
 

I’ve always wondered, how many of their year 11 associates do these schools take in to their full time school from their associates schemes (directly from their associates scheme, not counting those who leave and go overseas and participate in competitions)? Let’s start with this year’s stats as most full time offers would have been sent out already. And I’m sure of particular interest would be female associates as the numbers of these are often significantly higher than males, especially when you take into consideration the ratio “number of associate applicants: number of place the full time school has for that gender”.

 

- RBS Senior Associates into their Upper School

- Elmhurst Extended Associates into their Sixth Form

- Tring CBA Senior Group into their Sixth Form

- ENBS Senior Associates into their full time school 

- Rambert (Pre) vocational into their full time school 

- Central Pre- seniors into their full time school

 

I am aware some of these would have their own lower school full time students but it will still be interesting to see associates offer rates.

 

 

Edited May 6 by Neverdancedjustamum

[Babyballerinamum]

I know one boy converted from CSB associates to full time at 16

[Pas de Quatre]

Not scientific, but over years of watching, and having pupils in some of the Associate schemes named, I am afraid the answer is very few. None some years, up to two or three maximum.

[Neverdancedjustamum]

2 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Not scientific, but over years of watching, and having pupils in some of the Associate schemes named, I am afraid the answer is very few. None some years, up to two or three maximum.

I suspect it’s the same this year. Perhaps even less so the more and more some schools recruit overseas. Anecdotally, I think in at least three of those schools above, I think the answer for female associates ranges from 0 to 2.  That’s why I thought it might be of interest to read first hand accounts of those in the schemes of the schools.

[Ruby Foo]

Since 2016, I am only aware of 1 senior RBS associate going to RBS upper school and she doesn't really count as she was already full time for many years at another vocational school.

RBS publishes this information somewhere I believe.

[Doing Dance 1]

Of course it is fair to measure who many students from associate schemes end up at that particular school. 

However, I guess you could also look at how many associates go on to full time training more broadly.

The big schools associate schemes can be a great addition to students that only have syllabus classes during the week and introduce them to a different style of training that more closely aligns with the vocational structure.

 

 

[Lifeafterballet]

My son was an associate with Elmhurst for 2 years. Didn’t get an US place at 16. Changed to Advanced Associates with RBS for a year (but did SAs instead at Covent Garden as more classes and a male teacher and class) and then got an US place at Elmhurst. 
I can’t comment on the past 3 years intake, but pre that in our experience there were very little who were offered a place having been associates.

Loads for year 7 though. 

[Kerfuffle]

I know of one central associate who got in several years ago (2021), a RBS SA who got in during the Covid period (might have been because they weren’t looking abroad as much). I don’t know of any ENBS associates getting into ENBS but they have only recently restarted their associates. The majority of the  girls in my DD’s RBS associates got upper school places who wanted them - Tring Central Elmhurst RCS ENBS  etc so generally their success rate was high even if they didn’t go to RBS  upper school.  I think what I’d take away from this is that supplementing their training is worth it but it doesn’t necessarily get you a place at a particular school from its associate scheme. 

[akh]

It will vary year on year so statistics are not very helpful. Just enjoy the experience of Associates in whichever scheme suits the student  best. 

[taxi4ballet]

Being an associate anywhere gives you an additional level of training that will hold a student in good stead anyway. Quite a few associates gain upper school places, but not necessarily at the same school at which they were an associate.

[Bolshoi]

6 hours ago, akh said:

It will vary year on year so statistics are not very helpful. Just enjoy the experience of Associates in whichever scheme suits the student  best. 

Exactly this! In my DD friend group, ENBS last year were 2 offers for full time, this year we know of 1 but there maybe more. Central last year 6 offered, this year 2. Not so sure about the boys. RBS, we only know of 1 maybe 2 in the last few years actually offered US but as previously said, many go elsewhere.So many factors to consider I think the important thing is quality of training to support all full time applications.

[Ruby Foo]

6 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

Being an associate anywhere gives you an additional level of training that will hold a student in good stead anyway. Quite a few associates gain upper school places, but not necessarily at the same school at which they were an associate.

I agree that associate classes can be extremely beneficial for many reasons. That was certainly our experience.

My opinion is though that if the standard of some yr 11 associate classes is mis aligned with the standard needed to compete with international students for a place in yr 12, then it seems a little strange. The same applies to the standard being taught in yr 11 vocational. The students need to be able to compete against the international competition, especially if it's following through the same establishment.

[BattementBatty]

This year definite conversions that I know of. 

Central 2 girls 1 boy

ENB 2 girls

RBS 0 (I think maybe 1 associate got finals)

 

lower school 

1 RBS to WL outside of year 7

[Neverdancedjustamum]

7 hours ago, BattementBatty said:

This year definite conversions that I know of. 

Central 2 girls 1 boy

ENB 2 girls

RBS 0 (I think maybe 1 associate got finals)

 

lower school 

1 RBS to WL outside of year 7

Thank you! These more or less tie up with what I know too although I think there are more boys for Central. From what I know too, one of the ones quoted above has only been an associate of that school for a few months before auditioning, and was actually with another school’s associate scheme the year prior.  I really appreciate your response, it just highlights the very small numbers sadly. I never questioned the benefits of associates schemes but I think we would be in denial if parents didn’t choose certain associates schemes attached to particular schools without even the littlest of hopes that their DCs would have a better chance of getting a full time place at that school (should they choose to audition).  I know we are all for the experience and added higher level training of associates schemes but surely one of the main attractions would be being trained in the ways and systems of that particular school, which is always the emphasis of all their marketing materials. 

[BattementBatty]

I am not so familiar with the boys but think the girls were disappointed that so few associates got through at Central as I think that is generally seen as the one where associates have more of a chance. I think the girls at RBS (in our class anyway) know that the chances of converting to US is seriously zero.  The competition next year is going to be ridiculous as the standard of the non vocational girls, (or girls doing vocational training outside of the big schools), is incredible. 
 

I believe Central stated the number of international offers as a reason which is worrying for UK girls associate or not.  

Edited May 7 by BattementBatty

[Neverdancedjustamum]

32 minutes ago, BattementBatty said:

The competition next year is going to be ridiculous as the standard of the non vocational girls, (or girls doing vocational training outside of the big schools), is incredible. 
 

I believe Central stated the number of international offers as a reason which is worrying for UK girls associate or not.  

Yes, we have seen first hand the amount of training some of the these non-vocational girls have.  The hours are insane and training not limited to U.K.-based competitions, classes and privates. The time and money that goes into this is, quite simply, mind boggling, and from what I’ve observed quite a recent phenomenon. I’d say the last 5-6 years it’s just gone off the scales. A good number forgo traditional schooling to be able to squeeze in more training hours. Sadly this means that vocational students probably feel the same in that to keep up, they’d need extra training too. I’m not sure how much of this is permitted but I’ve seen some public posts of extra training so perhaps vocational schools are getting more lenient about this sort of thing.

[taxi4ballet]

I agree that many people would hope that being an associate at a particular school would give them a slight advantage come audition time. And it does.

 

But the advantage is not because they are an associate at that particular establishment. It is because they are a better dancer than they might otherwise have been, without that additional training. 

[akh]

6 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

I agree that many people would hope that being an associate at a particular school would give them a slight advantage come audition time. And it does.

 

But the advantage is not because they are an associate at that particular establishment. It is because they are a better dancer than they might otherwise have been, without that additional training. 

22 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

Being an associate anywhere gives you an additional level of training that will hold a student in good stead anyway. Quite a few associates gain upper school places, but not necessarily at the same school at which they were an associate.

Exactly

[taxi4ballet]

Being an associate at one of the top schools is a considerable achievement in its own right.

 

 

[Ruby Foo]

9 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Yes, we have seen first hand the amount of training some of the these non-vocational girls have.  The hours are insane and training not limited to U.K.-based competitions, classes and privates. The time and money that goes into this is, quite simply, mind boggling, and from what I’ve observed quite a recent phenomenon. I’d say the last 5-6 years it’s just gone off the scales. A good number forgo traditional schooling to be able to squeeze in more training hours. Sadly this means that vocational students probably feel the same in that to keep up, they’d need extra training too. I’m not sure how much of this is permitted but I’ve seen some public posts of extra training so perhaps vocational schools are getting more lenient about this sort of thing.

This doesn't always come down to number of hours of training. You can train all you like and just exhaust ( and injure) yourself for little return.

It's also about the 'type' of training.

From experience, it's quite obvious that international students put far more emphasis on pointe work and variations earlier on. The international students seem to understand the bigger picture much better and earlier than here in the UK. Of course, many of them will be privately trained which is obviously beneficial but still, classes in UK vocational schools are small. The internationals usually have much more performing experience, are often more self motivated and confident and more aware of what is required to reach the end gaol  possibly because they have not been part of the uk 'school system' where the 'system' takes over. They are also not afraid to travel around the globe to attend classes and summer schools. Perhaps this is more about income than putting yourself out there.
There's only so much you can achieve in 1 associate class a week of course. But I still feel there's a kind of complacency in the schools and associates relying on internationals to fill the spots. Having watched both a  senior associate class( yr 11)  and a 1st year upper school class - there's an obvious mismatch in the training level. This then follows through to students who are quite resigned that they will have no chance in an RBS audition and probably won't even apply, having been an associate or a vocational lower school student for many years. 

 I know many students are grateful for their associate classes ( as was mine) and they have served them well in their progress to various upper schools. I am not trying to undermine that in any way.

Edited May 7 by Ruby Foo

[Chira]

8 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Having watched both a  senior associate class( yr 11)  and a 1st year upper school class - there's an obvious mismatch. 

Your post is very insightful and very interesting. 

 

with regards to the part I have quoted; would you mind sharing what you observed?

 

obvs the school etc isn’t relevant, but I would be v interested to hear your observations on what the mismatch looked like. 
 

my own child’s experience with associates prior to joining full-time training at Y9; the Y4-6 associates really did seem to be offering good quality training with intention for the children to join LS’s. There was a feeling of investment.
Y7-9 associates however was most definitely not the case, and the quality of training my child experienced was just ok. My child was bored and the intention and direction of the work was not clearly focused. (I understand what it is on paper which was attractive to my child). They left end of Y8.
 

of my child’s cohort Y7-Y11 who remained with associates none progressed into the US.

 

I do not want to name schools. The ballet world in the UK is extremely small. 

[Ruby Foo]

I will pm you later, if that's okay. 

[taxi4ballet]

It would be good if discussions are in general terms rather than about specifics (which makes things difficult for the mods), so that the thread can remain open.🙂

[Neverdancedjustamum]

9 minutes ago, Chira said:

Your post is very insightful and very interesting. 

 

with regards to the part I have quoted; would you mind sharing what you observed?

 

obvs the school etc isn’t relevant, but I would be v interested to hear your observations on what the mismatch looked like. 
 

my own child’s experience with associates prior to joining full-time training at Y9; the Y4-6 associates really did seem to be offering good quality training with intention for the children to join LS’s. There was a feeling of investment.
Y7-9 associates however was most definitely not the case, and the quality of training my child experienced was just ok. My child was bored and the intention and direction of the work was not clearly focused. (I understand what it is on paper which was attractive to my child). They left end of Y8.
 

of my child’s cohort Y7-Y11 who remained with associates none progressed into the US.

 

I do not want to name schools. The ballet world in the UK is extremely small. 

Hi @Chira, I would love to hear about your Y7-9 associates experience. I will DM you ☺️

[Skintdancemum]

My daughter was a royal SA and elmhurst extended associate , she’s now at elmhurst upper , she was the only elmhurst associate in her year to get offered a place but a few of the RbS SA girls were offered places at elmhurst that year along with other offers . 

[AllAboutTheJourney]

I can't give you stats but to be honest I don't think the ratios tell you very much anyway. I would always see an associates scheme (post age 11ish) as a way to get some additional training alongside your 'normal' dance school, not as a route into a particular vocational school, and I would have thought that's how most people view them. 

 

Regardless of all of that, the whole thing is skewed anyway by the fact that the majority of the associates schemes you have mentioned operate in or around London. RBS operates in more centres, of course, but it is still limited in its reach (geographically) especially once you get to Senior Associate level.

 

There are many, many UK based young people applying for upper schools who don't live anywhere near the schemes you have mentioned but will of course still audition for full time places at those same schools (and often get them) when the time comes. The pool auditioning for associates will be totally different to the pool auditioning for full time places, even in relation to UK applicants. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

On 06/05/2024 at 11:23, Ruby Foo said:

Since 2016, I am only aware of 1 senior RBS associate going to RBS upper school and she doesn't really count as she was already full time for many years at another vocational school.

RBS publishes this information somewhere I believe.

DD’s friend was a SA of RBS and graduated last year from there so it can happen. She did not attend any lower vocational school as she had excellent home training.

[Ruby Foo]

3 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

DD’s friend was a SA of RBS and graduated last year from there so it can happen. She did not attend any lower vocational school as she had excellent home training.

 Fantastic to hear!

Would be nice if there was more though.

[Mummy twinkle toes]

1 hour ago, Ruby Foo said:

 Fantastic to hear!

Would be nice if there was more though.

Yes, it would be. 

[Doing Dance 1]

I think it would indeed be nice if more students progressed into 6th Form/ Upper School.

 

I’ve been reading this thread with interest and was wondering why the standard of private non full-time training hasn’t been brought up (unless I’ve missed it). 

An associate class by its very nature is simply an addition to students regular training.

Of course it can vary greatly but, surely the quality of students regular training should be a better place to look/ address/ question/ gather data…
🤷🏻‍♂️

Edited May 9 by Doing Dance 1

[Pas de Quatre]

I agree Associate training is an add on, but the pupils have to be of a high standard already to be offered a place.