Pups_mum

I can relate... it's a bit of a double edged sword when they do well at things isn't it? My boys are taking part in an engineering type competition next week. Last year their team won the regional competition and then did sufficiently well at the nationals to get through to the international final. It was an awesome experience for them but a logistical and hugely time consuming nightmare for parents. I'm glad they've had that opportunity, but I know I'm not the only one of last year's parents who is secretly hoping that they don't win the heat next week......bad mummy....

Interesting question. I was talking to DD about this at Christmas when we were watching a ballet on TV. For me, it was just entertainment and I was enjoying the story, the music and the spectacle. DD was analysing everything. She says particularly now she's learning more about choreography she's always looking beyond the surface, and trying to learn something from every performance which I guess is good in a way, but does take some of the fun and "magic" out of it. I suppose it's inevitable really, a bit like my friend who is a hotelier comes home from every holiday with either a list of criticisms of where she stayed or a list of new ideas for her staff to implement!

It's depressing. But I do think there is hope. At least we're talking about it now. And other fields have changed. In my own profession, ritual humiliation of students and newly qualified staff was viewed as a legitimate educational strategy until relatively recently, but not now. One of my professors was blatantly racist and sexist but nobody ever dared challenge him because he held all the power, and we had none. The other staff in the department were sympathetic but also scared and would advise us to just keep our heads down and take it. Which is what I did when he deducted 15% from my end of module mark because, according to him, my supervisor "always over marks the pretty little girls". Everyone in the room, students and faculty alike, just looked at the floor, as he adjusted our marks on the basis of his personal prejudices. I'm sure there are still people who think like him out there, but I'm confident that the behaviour is far more controlled now. Back then, I wouldn't have believed things could change, but they have, despite hundreds of years of tradition. They can change in the ballet world too I hope, and the first step probably is people like us saying "it's not OK".

It's difficult isn't it? The ballet world is a small one, and with increasing technology it gets smaller. Even with the relative anonymity we have here, I reckon most of us probably know at least a few of the others. Or more to the point, our children know each other, whether that's from school, summer schools, competitions or whatever. I realised that when my DD complained to me about something I'd written here. It was something quite innocuous to my mind, a joke really. But another forum member mentioned it to her daughter, probably also completely without malice, and my DD got teased a bit. Not serious, but it would put me off posting about any more serious concerns I might have, as I know it could get back to involved parties. I wonder if there is a need to be able to post as "anon" on certain topics in fact? I know some other forums have that facility but they tend to be big ones with paid staff, so it's probably not feasible here.

I had that experience transiently when for an all too short time, DD's old school relocated to a building about half a mile down the road from our house. Mostly she walked, or asked the school bus driver to drop her off there instead of at home, but I did a fair few late night winter pick ups in my PJs too. But sadly that school closed, and the next nearest school offering an advanced ballet class was 40 miles away. (The downside of rural life). So we went from the sublime to the ridiculous overnight! Fortunately she passed her driving test very soon after, though that of course gave me a whole new set of worries.

I have a suspicion that a big part of the problem is around the supply:demand issue. There are so many talented youngsters who would give their eye teeth for one of very few places. This means the schools have little to lose - if a pupil leaves there's a queue waiting to take his or her place. Plus I imagine that pupils and their families probably feel that they have to put up with bad treatment because they are one of very few lucky ones, especially if they've received funding. It must be incredibly difficult to walk away from an opportunity that you have fought so hard for, may never get again, and which you know is so sought after. I think this applies even with associate schemes to a degree and I have huge respect for parents and pupils who recognise that these things are not right for them and walk away. I am not sure I would have that strength of character myself. I suspect this is a big factor in why people keep quiet, or at least don't act decisively until things are desperate. And I'm sure it's not just ballet. Any field where there are huge numbers of potential participants and very limited opportunities is at risk of this sort of thing. The children seem to be viewed as a commodity rather than individual people. As to why some of the staff seem to be so toxic....might it be because they are products of this system too and have been damaged themselves? I have a friend who was a pupil at a very famous public school (nothing to do with ballet!). Whilst there he suffered horrendous abuse from both staff and other pupils which has left him very damaged. And I suspect I don't know anywhere near the full story. And yet he is proud of being an old boy, and publicly seeks to uphold the "values" of his Alma Mater. He thinks it made him "strong" and judges others against that standard. Were I a betting woman, I would hazard a guess that the individuals in the blog, and many other senior staff in schools and companies the world over are the same. Not that that makes such behaviour acceptable of course.

I spent far too long reading this last night. What a terribly sad story. I read some of the very early blogs too, when the young man in question had just entered Year 7. The contrast between those initial posts when the family clearly had faith in the school and a conviction that they were doing the right thing despite the challenges to the later ones when all trust and hope had been completely destroyed is striking. Reading this, alongside the experiences of quite a lot of young dancers I know is incredibly demoralising. Frightening even. I doubt many parents let their children go to vocational school expecting it to be "easy" either for the child or the rest of the family, but surely they should be able to expect that their children will be safe, cared for and listened to? The more I learn, the more convinced I become that at the very least, a sizeable minority of children have really significant problems at vocational school, maybe even the majority. I've always been relieved that my DD didn't want to audition for lower schools - I think it's tough enough in upper schools to be honest - though I totally understand the appeal, particularly for those who find it hard to access high quality training locally. But it seems that too often these bright, creative, precious young people are being crushed by the very people and institutions they trusted to nurture them. There really has to be a better way than this.

Lol, it's definitely not just a girl thing! Cycling sons are just as bad. The time my son spends preening before he goes for a ride is legendary. And whilst his big sister wears her grink tights without batting an eyelid, there's no chance he would be seen in cycling socks that have suffered any laundry mishap - he has to be immaculate and perfectly coordinated at all times!

Many of the secondary school pupils in our area aren't home until 4.30/5.00 so the classes for their age groups were always late. In DD's latter years she was often not finished til 9 or 10pm. I was very glad when she learned to drive! To be fair to teachers, it must be a bit of a nightmare trying to timetable around different school finish times, other commitments and so on. I guess from a business perspective you just have to go with what suits the majority.

If the current teacher never changed class times for anyone, I would, to be brutally honest, have thought you were being a bit unreasonable to expect her to do so for your DD. Clashes are a fact of life and sometimes you just have to choose. (I'm currently struggling to manage my youngest son's 2 sports so I do empathise.) But, given that she does so for others, then I would say it's reasonable to expect at least equal consideration for your DD's needs. Inconsistency is, in my humble opinion, one of the worst traits any kind of teacher or coach can have.

It definitely sounds like its time for a move. I guess all teachers have their foibles, just by virtue of being human, but they are definitely not all like that. Personally, I don't think I ever asked for a lesson other than privates to be moved because of other commitments, dance or otherwise. And even then I tended to try to sort it out myself and then say "so and so's mum is happy to swap if it's OK with you?".If we couldn't make a normal class that was just bad luck. But if lesson times are being changed to suit other pupils/parents then I quite understand why you would be annoyed. It's not the lack of flexibility with class times, but the lack of fairness and consistency. It should be the same rules for everyone. I know it's not always easy finding a new school, especially that teaches advanced classes, bit in your shoes I'd be inclined to cut my losses and try elsewhere after these next exams. It doesn't sound like your DD is getting a lot out of the school currently anyway so maybe you don't have a lot to lose?

I'd be looking elsewhere I think. Presumably there are other students at the CAT who are also doing syllabus classes somewhere, so I'd start by asking around there. Hopefully you'll find somewhere within reasonable travelling distance.

I think this sounds like s brilliant initiative from the RAD. I can think of quite a few girls who attended my DD's former local dance school for whom this would have been ideal. They'd finished the graded exams and didn't want or weren't able to do the vocational exams so ended up dropping out. I think this would have been a great syllabus for them - it sounds both technically and artistically challenging, and when all said and done, dancing classical variations like these is probably what most ballet students of all ages aspire to at some point! Of course you can learn this kind of thing in non syllabus classes, but lots of people do like the challenge of doing exams, so I think this will definitely appeal to teens (and their parents) as well as to adults who don't fancy the traditional syllabi. Rightly or wrongly, we live in a society where achievement is very much measured by exam performance so people do like to do them. I think the RAD have found a gap in the market here. Certainly I can imagine a lot of parents that I know would be much happier letting their 6th form children continue with ballet as a hobby when there's an exam involved, even if the same work could be done in a free class - the former will be seen as potentially CV enhancing but the latter would be "wasting valuable revision time!"

I think the key words in that definition are "average learner". It doesn't mean that a student must complete that number of hours before the exam, or that everyone will be exam ready when they have done so. It's just a guide. Some will be ready much sooner, others will need longer, depending on all kinds of factors. It's interesting to see how the recommendations change with grade though, with the suggested additional learning hours exceeding the guided learning hours for advanced 1 and 2.

Ah yes "grink" as that particularly fetching colour is known in our house. All DD's tights seem to end up that colour in the end!

Doing exams comes more easily to some than others too - not just in dance of course. I passed all my professional exams first time, and whilst I certainly would not claim they were easy, I didn't find the process as difficult as many of my peers, at least partly because I've always found it easy to "get" what examiners are looking for, especially in vivas. But I don't think exam prowess translates directly into how skilled someone is in "real life". I have had some excellent colleagues over the years who have been more than competent but never managed to pass the exams, and others where the reverse applied! I'm not sure there's any infallible process of assessment mind you, there will always be some who are disadvantaged by any particular method and others who thrive on it.

I really feel for you MuddledMama, it's a horrible situation to be in. As parents it's our natural inclination to want to keep our offspring happy and to do everything we can to support them. But sometimes that involves saying no to something that they desperately want, because we, as adults can see the bigger picture. Yes, it makes us very unpopular, at least transiently, and it's not nice, but sometimes it has to be done. A common human response to difficult problems is to be come fixated on one solution. When it's not working, we try the same thing again and again, trying harder, and harder. Despite the fact that it's obviously not working, if we have got it firmly into our heads that a certain way must be right, it's really hard to shake that. I think you and your DD may be in that situation now. You've changed schools but are essentially repeating the same experience again. And your DD is doing a huge amount of hours at the studio - more than many full time vocational students of similar age. This situation is not sustainable and you need to step back and reassess the whole thing. It's a cliche, but work smarter not harder. A short break to rest and take stock will not harm her chances of a career in dance. But a breakdown in her physical and/or mental health will.

I know this sounds a bit counter intuitive, but my gut feeling is that she needs to cut back. I know that we are always telling our children that they need to work hard to achieve their goals, and I'm sure everyone here knows what it's like having a single minded child......but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing. I feel worn out reading your posts even. Everything just sounds like a huge uphill struggle for your DD. I wonder if she needs to step back a little, relax and stop putting so much pressure on herself. Just enjoy the dancing for a while, don't panic about exam results or anything. A more nurturing teacher sounds like it would help, but I know that may not be easy to find if you dont have a lot of local schools. I would look though. The current situation sounds unsustainable. I hope things look up soon.

Thanks all. Our house is 23 years old and we've been in it 18, so it sounds like I won't need to do anything then - that's good news.

I am shortly due to pay my last mortgage instalment (hurrah!) and it's just occurred to me that I will need to store the deeds somewhere. I'd always assumed I'd get a safety deposit box at the bank as that's what I remember my mum and dad having. However, I've read that most banks no longer offer this service, and that those that do charge quite a lot. Can any knowledgeable people advise on possible options please?

I have to confess I'm wondering the same as Aileen.....do you really want to do this Jade? You do seem to be finding a lot of things to object to or that worry you. There are as you know lots of different styles of dance, so if you don't really want to do ballet maybe you could look into something else such as contemporary. The dress code is likely to be more flexible in some other genres than in ballet. Though again, you will find a big variation from school to school. Back to the ballet though - do you have a particular school in mind? If not, then look at a few as you may find somewhere that has a dress code you find more acceptable. But to be frank, I think you need to be honest with your mum and yourself about whether this is really something you want to do or not. If you don't, then look for other options, if you do, then stop worrying and go for it. I suspect that if you take to it, once you get into class you will have too much to think about to be stressing about what colour tights you, or anyone else, are wearing. And if you don't like it once you've done a few classes then at least you know that you tried and it's not for you. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

I'm sure you are absolutely right Jade - some of it is just convention. You can dance in anything that let's you move freely, and people shouldn't be put off from trying ballet because of those conventions. What I would say though, is that conventions often develop the way they do for sound reasons. Wearing loose clothing may not prevent you executing the moves, but it does make it harder for your teacher to give you corrections as s/he can't see exactly what you are doing. The traditional pink tights and pink shoes create a sense of continuity between foot and ankle, so visually lengthening the leg. A "ballet bun" is meant to be unobtrusive so that the headline is neat etc etc. And some of it is "just" tradition. Like many art forms, sports and other activities, ballet has its traditions and that aren't all completely logical but are somehow part of the whole. Lots of people enjoy the sense of belonging that following tradition provides. And let's face it, ballet is a visual art. The dancers you've watched on the videos suggested earlier in the thread do still look stunning in their practice clothes of course, but I think audiences would be disappointed to turn up to a performance and see the dancers dressed that way. Costumes, set, lighting etc are all part of the package and sometimes performers do have to wear things they don't like! So if you wish to perform, and/or take ballet exams then I am afraid you will have to comply with these conventions at some point. But if you wish to dance just for exercise and enjoyment then I agree - it doesn't matter hugely what you wear. Adult, recreational dancers often wear t shirts and leggings or similar. Either way, dont worry about baby pink leotards and skirts though - I've never come across a school that uses that uniform beyond about age 6 or 7.

I think you may be over thinking things a bit to be honest Jade! In all likelihood, as a new starter, it's going to be some time before you will need to consider the prospect of a public appearance in a tutu so you will have plenty of time to decide whether you want to do that or not. In my experience most dance schools out for rather less expensive costumes for their shows anyway as classical tutus are very costly. So don't let something that may or may not happen in the future trying something in the present. As for dancewear seeming exposing, yes, I suppose it is a bit, but its just clothing that allows you to move freely and your teacher to see properly what you are doing. Remember you will be in a room full of others dressed the same. Think of it as a bit like being at the swimming pool. You would feel very exposed wearing a swimsuit to school or the shops where everyone else was fully clothed, but at the pool where it's the right clothing for the activity and everyone else is dressed the same it feels normal doesn't it? In fact you would probably feel out of place if you were fully clothed at the pool - and you certainly wouldn't be able to swim as well! A leotard in a ballet class is much the same really. Just go along to a few classes and see how you feel anyway. If come to love ballet I can almost guarantee you will stop worrying about the uniform.

Hello Jade, Ballet students rarely wear tutus for class. Different studios will have different uniforms, but most likely you will be expected to wear a plain coloured leotard (not usually pink except for the younger girls), and pink tights with pink soft soled ballet shoes. However, most teachers will let new starters try class in any kind of exercise wear until they have decided whether ballet is for them or not. Whatever you wear for your jazz class would probably be fine at the beginning. You will soon get the idea of what the other students are wearing, and even if it seems strange at the beginning, you won't feel silly as everyone else will be wearing the same. But I would advise you try a few classes first. Your mom won't thank you if she spends a lot of money on new things and you find you don't like the class! Try it first, plenty of time to buy later.

Another consideration is the fact that different people learn differently. My DD tends to pick things up quickly and then plateaus. Once she's reached that point, the improvement slows right down. In fact if she spends too long on something I think she actually starts getting worse again. I'm much the same (not regarding dance - just generally). Other people seems to learn in a more linear way, starting off more slowly, but continuing to get better and better with time the longer they practice a particular task, ultimately probably exceeding the skill level attained by someone who learns like me or my DD, but needing more time to get there. I think a good teacher will take that into consideration. There certainly isn't a one size fits all answer to how long any particular grade should take.