Dancer Sugar Plum

Thank you Anjuli, I will definitely try the tendu with back bend exercise and think of my arms coming from my spine during class. I'll try practicing the pivots without a mirror as well and not spot separately from the pivot movement. Your help is much appreciated.

That is very sweet

Michelle, Your last comment quoted above made me think you felt 'picked on'. If I am wrong I don't mind being corrected at all. I don't want you to feel that you are 'picked on', and I'm sure everyone else on this forum feels the same. Because I was worried you felt 'picked on' I wasn't sure whether I should reply to your request. But incase you find it useful, and incase there are forum readers who would find it useful, here are my thoughts. About the first area you want to work on ('improved and sustained leg extension') I think you mean you would like your legs to go higher and be able to hold them up en l'air for longer. If I'm wrong about what you're asking, please correct me. But if I'm correct, in my personal opinion I don't think your Body Balance instructor is the best person to help you because you said, 'she has no ballet experience'. If she hasn't had any ballet experience you would have to explain to her ballet teachnique. This could become a time-consuming exercise for you. I don't mean that the instructor is not good at what she does. But for something as specific as increasing/improving the height of your extension, you would have to explain to her about the need to keep turnout no matter what the height is, using and strengthening the inner thighs and centre, etc. This is why I'm saying it might end up being time-consuming for you. Anjuli has mentioned a great excercise for increasing extension in post 367. I think it would be more worthwhile to ask for some private lessons from a teacher you work well with and explain what you want to work on. The advantage of working with a ballet teacher is that she/he can check your alignment; it's easy to 'cheat' in ballet. So if you do an exercise like the one Anjuli covers in post 367, your teacher can check if you're raising the working hip to help you raise the leg off the barre (as an example). With your second request ('larger range in back bends') I've asked Anjuli about improving range in the back, which she has answered in post 392. But this is also something a ballet teacher in a private lesson can help you with because she/he can check that you are bending back safely and not straining any areas of your back or neck. The other suggestion I have is joining a pilates class. Again, I would suggest finding an instructor, who has done ballet. I once tried a pilates class, which had a lovely instructor. However, she had never done ballet, so she wouldn't have known what you meant if you had said to her, 'I'd like to increase my back range for ballet'. It's easier to work with someone who knows exactly what you're talking about, without you having to explain what an arabesque is, what a develope is, etc. I hope you find this helpful.

Anjuli - This has been very helpful, thank you for the advice. So far I've tried the pivots the way you've described with the foot sur la coup de pied at the back, and also in a low mini-attitude just off the supporting foot. I've tried spotting each corner in a spot, pivot to corner, spot, pivot to wall, etc fashion. For some reason I've never thought about spotting in pivots before! I also find dividing the room into 8 sections very helpful. For now, I can only do this successfully by myself very slowly, practicing with a mirror in front of me so I can check if the supporting foot is turned out when I complete the circle of pivots. It looks like I'll need to get used to it before adding in a bit more speed and doing it in arabesque. I have 2 questions about the back, which might be related. You mentioned, 'The trick to keeping your arabesque leg steady is to raise it and lock it in place with your back muscles.' I have been told I should use my back muscles more, and while I understand what it means (I think) I don't know how to activate them more, if that makes sense. So even for something 'simple' like holding the arm in 2nd during a barre exercise, how would I use my back more? Am I right to think it's the same feeling for 'locking the back leg in place' for arabesque? I have been told to imagine my arms being long, but I think I need more imagery or specific exercises? My back is not very bendy, which I find a bit restricting, such as in grand battement derriere and develope derriere. However, I can place the palms of my hands flat on the floor with straight legs and rise to demi-pointe at the same time. I have been told this shows useful flexibility for ballet, but my back seems to have less natural range. So I was wondering if there are any safe ways for encouraging more range of movement in the back?

I think brise unders must be one of my worst steps. It's hard to get the back-front beat done properly to be noticeable to the audience. I just find that my calves 'get in the way' because I have sway-backed legs. Unfortunately, that's not a valid excuse for not doing them well!

She looks like she could be a beautiful dancer so it's a shame they 'had to' ruin her lines. If it was a problem fitting her pose in on the page, surely there were other ballet photos they could choose from?

I'm really sorry to hear this about your DD Tomuchtallent. I wish her a speedy recovery.

Personally, I think a 2nd en l'air raised from a terre, or from a develope looks good on anyone as long as it's perfectly placed and properly turned out. So no raising of the hip to get a higher leg. The foot should have energy running into the toes to keep them pointed as well. I think all this makes a nice 2nd, no matter the height. Personally, I find it difficult to direct and maintain the energy into the toes.

Mimi66 - I know what you mean, I have the same problem. I find it hard to maintain maximum turnout in everything as well! I have a teacher who gave me some advice about how to not sit in plies. She said to keep the tailbone pointing down while you keep the same hold on the rotation of the thighs. At the same time, you are lifting the front of the hips up constantly, so there is a 'push-me, pull-you' energy going on in the body. There is energy going down the back and up the front at the same time. This energy doesn't stop at anytime, even when you've reached the bottom of the plie, which stops the 'sitting' from happening. This should also help stop the pelvis from tilting back. She said that if the bottom releases (your turnout hold) at any point during the plie (even a slight release) then you will end up 'sitting'. I say all this, repeating what my teacher has said, but actually doing all this myself is another matter entirely!

There are so many steps where I find achieving the details challenging. The first thing that comes to my mind are pivotes in arabesque. Many times I've caught myself in the mirror during pivotes in arabesque and my supporting foot looks pararell. I think of showing the audience the inside thigh and the heel of the supporting leg, and keep the knee facing the middle of the foot as I pivote in order to maintain turnout. But I find it hard to do this enough to actually maintain turnout AND keep the up, up, up accent as I pivote round AND maintain correct arabesque alignment AND keep the leg at the same height AND keep the working leg and foot turned out AND give the feeling of growing in the position as I pivote round, all at the same time and not 'forget' something. And then there's the 'small' issue of keeping my centre engaged to allow all of this to happen. As a dance teacher has said to me recently, 'Ballet dancers need to multi-task'.

Michelle, Nowhere on this thread have I tried to discredit you. So I wonder where are you getting this idea from? I have only shared my experience and what I have learned about ballet so far as an adult. The rest of your post seems to suggest I said your technique was rubbish. I have never said, or hinted, that your technique is rubbish. No-one else on this forum has said so either. So why are you saying this? Although part of me agrees with the comments from Ribbons, Anjuli and Mimi66, I wanted to continue suggesting advice because, dare I suggest it here, that we both have a similar starting-ballet story? When I started ballet in my early 20s I very soon looked to see if I could add more classes. I ended up fitting in 8 classes a week while working full-time. Most of classes I did were not suitable for my level, they were around an Intermediate level. Although I enjoyed the classes (when I was doing them at the time) I had to learn the hard way and developed a lot of bad habits. It took a lot of work to undo the ‘damage’. Looking back, it was a waste of time fitting in so many classes, which were of no use to me. If I had not done so many classes that were beyond my level at the time, I think I would be an even more proficient dancer than I am now. I think you may not like the comparison I have made between myself and yourself. I hasten to add that I have never made any assumptions about your technique. I have just made a comment that our ballet-starting story appears to be quite similar, that is all, and hope you may find it useful. If I had had someone explain to me, when I started ballet, why I was going about it the wrong way, and how I should go about it instead, I like to think I wouldn’t have put down their opinions. I have to admit I feel uncomfortable with the tone of your expression, ‘I don’t necessarily follow what.. the teacher instructs '. As an adult, you are free to do what you wish. But I feel I should comment that it’s considered very disrespectful not to do what the teacher has set for class. Whenever I have attended class, which happened to have students at vocational school in the UK (when they’re doing some extra classes during the summer break) or had professionals drop-in, I have never see those dancers not do what the teacher sets, even though they are considered among the best dancers in the UK(if not the world maybe). The only exception is when someone is recovering from injury, and they would let the teacher know before class has started that they need to ‘do their own thing’ in specific parts of class. Needless to say I haven’t seen amateur dancers ‘do their own thing’ in class either. It feels to me you are uncomfortable reading what I am saying, and what others are saying. I get this feeling because your posts feel like you are trying to put down my opinions and what I have learnt. As it has been mentioned lots of times, everyone who has contributed to this thread is only concerned about your injuries. I stand by what I have said about physios, training and pointe work because I did not make them up. I speak purely from what I have learnt and hope it’s of some help. But I will repeat again that it worries me greatly that there are teachers around who seem to be casual about putting their students en pointe. If you believe none of the concerns voiced by forum members is of any use to you, or you feel none of it is relevant to you, I feel that’s a real shame. There are lots of adults going back to, or starting ballet, which is excellent. I like to think a lot of them are reading this forum for advice. So I hope what I have said is of some help to them instead.

One more point I feel I should add is about pointe work. Michelle, unless I am mistaken, I believe you have now been doing ballet for about a year, or just over a year? If I am correct, it concerns me that your teacher believes you are ready to do pointe work. This is not a criticism on any of the classes you attend. I bring this up because I was told that adults need to be doing 1.5 hours of class 3 times a week (or the equivalent) for at least 2.5 years AND have reached a certain technical proficiency before they should be put en pointe. Although adults don't need to worry about the bones in the feet being hard enough, etc, I was told they still need to reach a certain level before they could do pointe. I hasten to add this is also not a criticism on your technique, Michelle. I am just very curious (or maybe very worried?) that there are teachers around in the UK who take such a casual approach to putting students on pointe. Would they treat children and teenagers the same? I worry that the answer might be 'yes'. I also worry it means they don't care about their students' safety or their feet...

Michelle, As Spannerandpony has said, nobody is suggesting you give up, and that includes me for sure. Personally, I don't like describing ballet as a 'hobby' because it's so time-consuming and it's not something you can do occaisonally and see progress. I think we all understand how keen you are to get back into regular classes. You mentioned that in martial arts training it is, 'accepted that strength building means excerising into fatigue'. The problem with this in ballet is that it's not enough to get the step or movement done. It has to be done with the right muscles. For example, one of the most difficult things to learn is to use the under thigh muscles. I think it's a fair generalisation to make that we would automatically use the outer thigh muscles to do the work for us. If dancers don't learn to use/activate the inner thigh muscles, the dancer would build up the outer thigh muscles, which is the last thing any ballet dancer would want. With sport, such as martial arts, it is less 'fussy' or particular about which muscles should be used. Therefore I would suggest 'strength building means excercising into fatigue' is less helpful for ballet. I also have some comments to make about the fact you had spoken about your regime to a lady, who had done ballet until she was 20. You said the lady's response was, 'I know you can do them'. However, I stand by what I said, that ballet is very different working out in the gym or doing sport. I know that dancers in training are advised against going to the gym, or doing a lot of sport (probably except swimming) because it builds up the wrong muscles for ballet. I do not know, obviously, what level the lady had danced to when she stopped doing ballet, but I think most dancers who have had serious training would suggest the extra weights and the reps would be in danger of building up the wrong muscles you need for ballet. You also mentioned about your teachers reaction, 'whilst surprised also have the advantage of knowing me well and my capability, did not criticise it adversely'. Purely speaking from experience, I would be concerned that your teachers did not feel they could 'criticise' you about it in case you saw it as a insult. Or they didn't know how to word their concerns because you were so keen to go ahead with it. Or perhaps they felt they could not 'criticise' it because you are an adult and they felt they would be unable to stop you from pursuing your regime, even though they may not have liked the sound of it very much. I am only giving my opinion and suggestions here. As many have said on this thread, it's just out of a concern that you may do irreparable damage to your body. I also have to mention that I support Anjuli's concern, that a youngster could read into this discussion that it's possible to fast-track ballet training. So far, it has not appeared on Balletcoforum, but there are other ballet forums I've looked at which have lots of posts (I assume from female teenagers) asking questions along the lines of, 'I started ballet at 14, could I make it pro? Is there a way I could make it to a company?' It would be assumed that the poster would like info on how it's possible to 'fast-track' training to get to the level she (or maybe he) wants to get to. Even though this thread has a title that shows it's about adult ballet, no-one can control what appears in search results on search engines like Google. So just in case any part of this thread would show up in search engines that there is a way to fast-track ballet training, I support what Anjuli has said in her earlier post, that if you are a dance student who is concerned about your progress and would like to increase your training regime after reading this thread, please talk to your teacher(s) and parents before you start adding to your training yourself.

Plies should be a very 'in and up' movement, where all your energy is focused on keeping turnout and not letting your centre decrease the hold/power. It gets harder as you reach the depth of the full plie. This is why they are a technically very difficult excercise to get correct. Isn't there a saying that plies are the first thing you learn and the last thing you master? Injury can happen if this energy relaxes so that more pressure goes out onto the knees. Apart from being dangerous, it could also build up bulkier outer thigh muscles, which is the last thing you need as a ballet dancer, whatever your level or ambitions. So adding extra weight onto plies surely would make that even more of a possibility...?

Michelle, I stand by what I said, and I believe I have not mis-quoted you. My point was a concern that if you treated a rise (quick or slow) as a 'climb up' I was concerned that your whole body was not doing enough to help your feet. Rises should feel like you are taking your body away from your feet as far away as possible. I agree with Mimi66, there is turn-out in 6th position. Turnout doesn't have to be thigh, knees and feet rotated out to the side. If your inner thighs are not engaged to keep your legs and feet properly aligned I would suggest there is a danger that you are possibly rolling in. This is just a suggestion. A podiatrist once told me that most of the population roll in or out the feet; there are very few people who are naturally perfectly central through their feet in their placement. Because of the way female hips are constructed, he said females are more likely to roll in. It doesn't have to be a lot to be called 'rolling in'. This is why it's important for an excercise in pararell to be 'turned out' too. You suggest that you 'get more supervision than most'. Obviously, it's great you feel that way, but it's fact of (ballet) life that it takes time (ie years) for the body to acquire the correct technique and alignment. I apologise if you do not like my opinion, but I'm only speaking from my own experience, and noticing that even talented children and teenagers do not get 'fast-tracked' through the years they need to be in serious training. I am also concerned with the high number of your reps you 'need' to do. I am also concerned that your physio believes it is 'okay' to do grand plies carrying a 20kg load. It's a fact (I believe) that full plies add 700 times your weight onto your knees. And that's without carrying anything, except your own body weight! It makes me question whether your physio understands the demands of ballet on someone's body? I say this because I have seen physios in the past, who gave less than helpful advice because they hadn't a clue about the demands of ballet. Fortunately, I did find a physio who had studied ballet, and I cannot describe how useful it was not to have to explain what the difference between a demi-plie and a releve was. If your physio has indeed had ballet training, I would be very unsure of taking her advice. I think I would also want to change physios. I hasten to add that I am only speaking from experience and giving my own opinion, which I hope is of some help.

I think the answer would depend on both on what your DD's goals are (what sort of vocational school is she after), how she feels about the amount she's doing and whether it's affected her dancing progress in anyway. For example, are there some days where she would finish school feeling tired before starting class? Does she have a long travel to get to class? Are there any particular days your DD feels it's difficult to fit helping classes and doing classes along with homework, etc? Would she like more time not doing or helping class? It might be worth having a chat with her teacher as well. Are there days/classes where she feels your DD seems less 'on form'? As dancers - all levels - there are always classes where we don't feel 'on form' but if your DD's teacher has noticed a pattern maybe those are the classes to think about stopping? I hope this has helped.

Thanks Mimi66, that's very encouraging. If any of my dancing can be called impressive it's only because I've had the good fortune to be taught well.

I am not a ballet teacher, but I would suggest that the fact you describe a rise as 'climbing' shows that you need to do more with your body in order to do rises safely and correctly. If you are dependent on you feet doing all the work for rises (climbing to get there), you are putting a lot of extra pressure on your feet when it's not necessary to do so. As I mentioned in another post, I learnt from doing pointe work that a rise does not involve the feet doing all the work. It's not just with rises and releves that the knees should be held correctly, not sinking into hips, etc. Heel drops in pararel/6th postion are dangerous if your knees are not aligned with your hips and feet correctly. it's the same if it's on one foot. Add to that, if your foot rolls in or out, and you're doing multiple repetitions, it's a recipe for injury (or making injury worse) I'm afraid. I don't mean to say you do this or not. It's just hard to watch alignment issues when you're doing heal drops by yourself. They are dangerous for everyone. When I was recovering from a knee injury, the first thing my ballet teacher asked me to do was a full plie in first. It was my first 'proper' class after recovering from injury. From 'just' a plie my teacher could tell me where I was compensating and where my placement had changed to 'protect' the injured knee. She said that plies always show where placement had gone off. She also said that injury makes a dancer change their placement to protect/compensate, which is why it's important to go back to basics as you recover from an injury. I have not had a pleasure of watching a professional ballet class live, just on YouTube. The most recent class I watched was the Royal Ballet class filmed from 2012 or 2013. But the first thing I noticed (apart from the wonderful and effortless perfect lines) was the corrections. The dancers are told to keep their turnout, don't turn in and out, get back to fifth, etc. My point is the professionals still rely on a teacher to realign/correct them because the body is good at 'lying' to yourself. It also proves that it's not a good idea to work on ballet without a ballet teacher's supervision. You said you felt a thrill watching the prefessional do the same enchainment as the one you were given in class. I would like to point out that the thrill of watching the professionals do the same enchainment is to see how it should be done properly. It's a chance to learn more about line and technique and see how you can improve your own work.

I have just read about your injury Michelle and I agree with Anjuli's earlier post that I doubt anyone on this forum wants to say "I told you so." I also agree with Anjuli about the potential dangers of 'heel drops'. I am not a physio, but I have been advised in the past that these are dangerous because it's easy to roll in or roll out the feet (or foot) or be misaligned in your posture while doing these, which could lead to injury. From your recent posts, I am glad it sounds like your injury is making progress towards healing. I understand how frustrating it is not to be able to do class. I wish you a speedy recovery.

Thank you Mimi66, but the Intermediate syllabus I did was the one that was phased out quite recently before the current/new one took over. I believe it's roughly on the same level as current one. I know there was an even older Intermediate syllabus, which was stopped around the year 2000. I'm afraid I wouldn't have known what a tendu was back then!

I think that's another reason why female dancers (all ages) like having male dancers in class. When men are doing their allegro, the girls get to have a quick rest. If you're doing syllabus there is slower or completely different music for males so the girls have an option to miss it out. I don't mean to say that we (or teenage girls) are lazy. It's just nice to have a breather in class sometimes, so the girls will like having you in class!

Hello Ally158, To add to everyone's comments, I have never seen girls sneer or giggle at a boy or man doing ballet class. When I first joined a class with teenagers I was about 10 years older than everyone else. Whenever the girls laughed/giggled/talked it was always about what happened in school/what happened at the party/that silly photo so-and-so posted on Facebook, etc. They were only interested in themselves (I mean that in a good way). So if you join a class with 14-15 year-old girls and hear giggling it won't be about you. I think most girls understand that they won't have a chance of experiencing partnering work if no male dancers ever attended class! I have also heard of teachers advising (female) dancers that they should watch male dancers turn if they want to improve their pirouettes because men are so good at turning. So you may be asked to demonstrate some turns later on! Good luck with finding classes that suit you.

Hello SnowflakeQueen, I think it's great you want to get back into ballet. I didn't get to start ballet until I was in my early 20s but I can understand your anxieties. I had the same worries about what to wear, would I have to wear a leotard, would I look out-of-place, etc. I was so nervous before my first class, so much so that I can still remember everything in that first class very clearly. Very soon I found out that there was no need to be anxious and in an adult ballet class teachers don't mind if you choose to wear warm-ups or cover ups, if you decide to go for leotards and tights. As you get more comfortable in class you may decide to stop wearing the cover-ups, which is a good thing. Some of these warm-up items hide so much that it can be hard for your teacher to correct your line, or for you to check your line when using the mirror to correct yourself. I would also say not to give up on ever dancing en pointe again. I have gained my RAD Intermediate (older syllabus) and do pointe every week so I like to think I am proof that it's not impossible for adults to work up to a proficiency to work en pointe. Since you have danced at the studio near where you live in the past, I would suggest they may not 'write you off' because you danced with them in the past (even if they happen to be a school who would 'write off' adults). I have encountered teachers who 'write off' adult dancers, but I am happy to say they are not that common at all. If you do find other classes that you could attend, you could ask to watch a class before attending. Most teachers understand that it's scary doing a new class for the first time. I think you have a very nice demi-pointe as well. Good luck with re-starting ballet and finding classes that suit you.

Munchkin, I'm glad you enjoyed the class at Danceworks. It's always a bit scary doing a new class for the first time, so well done!

Michelle, As I have mentioned in one of my last posts, I am on this forum to share my experience of learning ballet as an adult. I have also mentioned on another thread on this forum that I am not what the vocational ballet world would label as 'talented' (unfortunately for me). I never claimed to be a wonderful dancer, either on this forum (or in the real world). I have explained the ballet mistakes I made in the hope it would help other people. Like I said in an earlier post, in hindsight I would have gone about trying to improve my ballet differently than what I actually did. I believe you mentioned you were following the advice of a physio to heal your foot, if I am not mistaken. If so, then I know you are trying to be sensible in following his/her advice. But just speaking from personal experience in ballet, there are some situations where it's better not to do ballet until the injury has healed. I am not saying this would or would not apply to you, just illustrating a point. Because it's so easy to be misaligned in ballet, not only in the hips, but also in the rolling in/out of the feet/foot, it's easy to stop injuries getting better. Also, I have seen some physios in the past, who were meaning well in their advice, but they had no idea about ballet, so they were not well-placed to give meaningful advice. While recovering from a knee injury, I told a physio that it was painful doing demi-plies in class, but the pain got better as class got on. The physio's reply was to ask me why I had to do demi-plies for ballet class! Why couldn't I just miss them out but still do the rest of class?! In sharing this story (and other things I've learned) I don't mean to misquote you, or say this is what has happened to you as well, etc. About the 'eye for detail' context, I did not try to 'discredit' your query, but to point out that there was technically nothing wrong with port de bras going through 1st or 5th to recover. I feel I should also point out that the 'looking in the mirror' comment was about how we correct ourselves in class. It is normal to use the mirror as a tool to check alignment, but it takes the body time to really understand how to do this. The more I learn in ballet, the more I understand about the detail, the more behind I feel I am. This is my own personal opinion. I have this opinion of myself because ballet relies on detail, and the body reaching/achieving that detail. In your pose turns example, it sounds like you are good at spotting, which is a good thing. However, you mentioned that the other dancers' 'performances were disappointing'. Some dancers need to focus so much on keeping their technique, it can look like they are not really performing in class. Sometimes 'performance' in class needs to take a back seat while working on technique, because the technique is so difficult to achieve. As an example, for pose turns your audience (be they in a theatre, a teacher, your fellow dancers, etc) would be looking to see if the pose leg has stayed straight on the transfer of weight, if turn out has been maintained, has body posture been maintained, has a hip raised as you transfered weight for the pose turn, has the working foot not sickled, etc. It's this picture as a whole, with all these details that matter in ballet. And these details usually take time to achieve, which is why myself and some other forum users have expressed caution in doing advanced classes. I have not shared my experiences, and my mistakes, in order to 'knit pick'. It's neither 'sour grapes' either. Like I said in an earlier post, I attended multiple classes every week, shortly after starting ballet as an adult. These included classes that were too advanced for me, but I did not understand this at the time. It did me no good to do these extra classes. Had I focussed on classes that were in my level - beginner at that time - maybe I wouldn't have had to spend so much time correcting bad habits, and maybe I would have been a better dancer than I am now? As I have said many times, I have shared my experience in the hope it helps other people. And if my mistakes don't apply to you, and you know your technique is secure, and you are definitely not picking up bad habits from the advanced classes you do, then I have to admit that I am envious of you (in a good way).