LinMM

Thanks Michelle for the video I found that very useful and it confirms something Ive noticed watching Russian videos....she extends both her arms out right at the beginning of the turn and brings them into first during the turn. I personally find this helps more than having the arms in third with right arm in front and then just bring the left arm in. The latter works well if just doing a balance but if turning I seem to do a better turn with this extension of right arm as well ......so,briefly both arms are in second and you can see this on the video. Talking about turning to,the right of course!! Anjuli at the end of the class this evening I practiced the exercise you suggested of just coming up onto demi keeping leg in retire and then lowering the supporting leg while keeping the retire. This proved beyond a doubt that I am not fully coming right up onto demi as found it quite hard to control the supporting leg down and keep the retire because my weight wasnt forward enough. It's much harder than coming down off the supporting leg and bringing retire leg down simultaneously. You definitely need more strength to do this so will keep practicing. I'm a bit tired right now but do want to ask about the en dedans turn as well. So perhaps tomorrow.

Well if you have been waiting since you were three years old Fiz probably time to have a go!! I don't know how long you have been doing ballet but I think you said somewhere you're in an intermediate sort of level class so perhaps you are ready. I think these days you can even get pointe shoes made to measure. I did enjoy it for a while but always hated the shoes really and often kept wearing old pairs that were nice and soft so not that good for your feet either!! The problem is it takes a lot of practice to do good work in the centre and so for adults starting later its hard to get to a satisfying use of being en pointe......however even if one can accomplish eventually some simple bourrees across the room one can pretend you are Giselle in the second act!! A friend and I used to muck about one pretending to be Giselle and the other the Queen of the Wilis and take it in turns one whipping the veil off and the other doing those manic hops!! But it started with the sorrowful bourrees !! So hope you and Moomin do have a go. Franziska has also brought out a DVD on pointe work......I think you can order from her website which I'll check out and leave a post. I have a feeling there will be two pointe work sections in Chelsea Ballet Summer school one is for beginners and the others more advanced...one am one pm etc etc. Chelsea is more flexible than some which are set prices.

Well just off to class now and for once will be really ready for the pirouette section after all this lovely advice so far and I will try to keep positive!! In fact tonight I will be annoyed if we don't do pirouettes rather than the usual sense of relief if they're missed for some reason!!

Could you have a go at the Chelsea Ballet one Fiz or are you away then? As far as I understand you can do as many or as few classes as you wish. They're all individually priced so that's how you work out what you owe. If you were travelling up daily its a pity the Pilates class is so early....9.30 I don't think people who live in London realise how expensive early morning travel is up to London and for me I cannot use my senior rail pass that early so bit of a nuisance. I'm sure either myself or Michelle could send you the programme. I'm more likely to do the afternoon programme which has : a roughly intermediate ballet class; a pointe work class(which I won't do) and a contemporary class which I might give a go though haven't done contemporary for years. There is an easier ballet class in the morning too about 11ish I think. Like you Michelle I may try and fit in a couple of classes elsewhere in the week.....at Central and London Russian......that's if I'm not too knackered already!! Ive given up pointe work now(see above post) but if you've not done before you may need to get some advice on shoes etc. Usually beginners pointe work is all at the barre anyway so if nothing else you can hang on to that! Have you spoken to any of your teachers about this.....what do they think? We can PM each other if you want except that I haven't initiated one of those yet either.....only replied to others!!

You are quite right to worry about people being on pointe who are obviously not ready for it!! Though most adult beginners pointe is only at the barre so you probably wouldn't break anything. I don't know where you are based but in London Franziska Rosenzweig does pointe work at Danceworks which I know she does safely but there are others at Danceworks and maybe Central adult classes too. If you are going to any graded classes I think pointe work is introduced round about Intermediate foundation or even grade6 level. To come back to your observations it's not just the feet which have to be strong.....it's the back as well so that you are fully pulled up off pointe so to speak otherwise all the weight is going down into the toes....not a good idea.....as my feet can testify to! This was because I was introduced to pointe work too soon at ten years old so now Ihave an ugly bunion!! However as adults feet are fully formed this may not be such an issue. Personally my pointe work days are over and would find pointe work at the barre a really boring part of a class much rather get on with some dancing!! But I can understand the fascination if you have never done it so have a go....find the right teacher to judge when you are properly ready first....you really must have good demi pointe work though. I think it's distressing to see people who cannot really pull up properly into demi struggling up onto full pointe. I'm sure there will be others on this forum who can also,recommend good teachers if you think you don't already have one.

Gosh I never knew reading about pirouettes could be so interesting......and how I agree with you Anjuli about men pirouetting. I was in a class in London recently and although it was not an advanced class there were three dancers from the Royal Ballet in it. The two men both did fantastic pirouettes with great controlled finishes and I just wanted to be able to do them like that!! But then who wouldn't!! In class on Saturday in Brighton we were doing a little enchainement with some pirouettes in the middle to music by Vivaldi and in that context my pirouettes came off much better....albeit only singles....but they were fast in the setting....I sort of enjoyed them in response to the music but I wouldn't have dared for two as some successfully did!! So onwards and upwards as they say. Am certainly going to perk up.this week in class when we get to pirouettes!! I also get the bit about practising......I think this is similar to the piano if you over practice a piece it starts to go downhill and I often find that the first time I play a piece is the best time before my head starts interfering with it all!! Are you saying Anjuli that you open the right arm before bringing both into,first then? This does seem to,be what I'm seeing on the Russian videos. With the plié some teachers say its only a brief quick down while others say to really use the plié (not sit in it but really use the Demi plié to push as well though would like to bring this up.later with en dedans pirouettes particularly. Anyway lots to get ones teeth into so far.

Not quite sure what you mean by the rotating plié Michelle. Is the sequence this lets say turning to the right from 4th: you place the push off leg(right leg) into fourth opening arms to,second as you initiate the movement and then the right arm in first as foot placed down the left arm staying in second; then there is a plié....you are still facing the front; next there is a push off the right leg into retire and a simultaneous bringing in of the left arm and it is only at the push off that the rotation starts; then there is the whipping of the head round to finish the turn both arms in first now; the final part is placing the right leg from retire behind you into 5th so you are then ready with the left leg in front with you facing the front!!! (I never thought I would be writing about pirouettes like this).its difficult breaking it down but I think the plié itself isn't rotated. However I would like to know how deep this plié should be etc

Thankyou balletbun and Adele have replied to your pm's. wishing you both and your dd and ds all,the best for the future.

By the way Anjuli I either fall towards the retire leg or backwards as you say!

Inspite of my successful balances in retire position just the other day one of my teachers remarked that when turning(from 4th on this occasion) I was already going into the turn with the retire leg still not off the floor!! So I really concentrated on snapping up that leg and on one occasion did a really good one and I noticed that my retire was in a better position more to,the side so my brain clocked that this could be useful!! I think this is one of the things you mentioned when pushing off Anjuli. I will practice the exercise where you leave the leg in retire and then come down.....as I think I usually do this simultaneously and Ive got a thing about even if doing one pirouette one should see that finish before placing the leg down into a hopefully neat fifth.....obviously if choreographed differently then one follows that. Just talking about bog standard pirouettes! I am much better at turning in pose turns(to the right at least) I wondered if that was because one is stepping out onto a straight leg.....because the use of the plié in a pirouette is another issue....how deep and how timed!! drdance yes I do understand what you re saying about the mechanics of it and sometimes one understands this in ones head....it's just how to get this firmly into the body!! There's also a very good book about "the line of aplomb" among other things by Roger Tully called "The Song Sings the Bird" this has some useful things about turning but more when a the barre. I've always been told its the incoming shoulder which turns you.....hence not to take the arm back behind the shoulder(if turning to the right this would be the left shoulder) but when I watch YouTube videos of some of the Russian dancers they seem to extend the arms each time rather than just lock into first position.

Anjuli great reading will reply properly later especially about the push off with the retire leg!

I'm not really understanding how this funding with a place at vocational schools works but it all seems incredibly cruel. The "spies" on YouTube just sent me a video they recommended for me about a group of 5 welsh dance students all initially at Elmhurst. It was heartbreaking that one boy had to leave because his parents could no longer afford the fees( inspite of the other students going to Desmond Kelly to try to save him!) His parents had sold their house to fund him the first year. He was a rather lonely figure at a comprehensive for a while because there was no funding from Elmhurst for another year for him before he had the good news that Hammond could offer him a funded place after all. However what I'm trying to understand (sorry having no lovely D's and S's) is when a child wins a place is this always only for one year? So has to be renewed year on year? It does seem a cruel system if this is the case and as one family seems to have experienced there may not be then a place at a local school! I always thought that if a child won a scholarship so to speak they were safely there until at least 16. I wish I could win the lottery and fund everyone's places for them!!

Well this will be hard to judge without seeing the people in reality but here goes Pirouettes en dehors first Most teachers will stress the importance of holding the position on Demi pointe strongly before turning and that pirouettes are about going "up" not "round". Once you've got this balance that's 3/4 of job done etc they say. Well I can hold the balance starting from 5th and 4th quite well now so should be able to turn but somehow as soon as I do I go off balance and don't seem to do even a single turn and arrive with the leg still in retire position. I do watch that incoming arm isn't throwing off balance but find it difficult to judge exact amount of force to use. I am also not sure that once trying to turn my supporting leg is staying pulled up. I can't decide whether technical probs or just a general "fear issue". Occasionally they come off so body has the knowledge somewhere but again why are pirouettes likely to,be so inconsistent?

Thanks Michelle will have a go a bit later.....being yelled at to get out and help in the garden at mo so better get at that first before this iPad gets confiscated!!!

Hi Siobhan well I know you'll find this hard to believe ....me being an oldie and all...but one thing I've found this time round is that I feel much freer to express the movement even if technique a bit to be desired! I used to be much more concerned about the technical aspects when younger which inhibited expression more but now although I am still interested in technique, it's more from just an enabling position so I can dance the enchainements with some degree of musicality etc. (so I can have my own private "Giselle" or "Swan" moments!!!) So I think it's as Anjuli said this new comeback could give you a new experience of ballet you may not have had before!!

I understand the fascination with the music as a child Spannerandpony.... it was hearing my mums old 78 recording of Chopins Les Sylphides that was the reason I started ballet in the first place! I used to get out of bed and sit at the top of the stairs if she had it on in the evening. She found a local class for me(same one as Paul Clarke late of Festival Ballet....we went to same primary school as well) but was never a "ballet mum" so to speak...she really wanted me to learn the piano!! Talking of the old Festival Ballet too I can't remember how many times went to see them perform Nutcracker when they used to use Festival Hall(awful conditions for dancers) had to stop seeing Nutcracker for a few years in the end as thought if I hear that overture one more time.........But still go and see it from time to time.....last year English National Ballets Wayne Eagling production.

I would be happy to start a new thread about pirouettes.....I don't know...pirouettes in the hot seat? .....there's just one snag....I don't know how to start a new thread and at mo can't find any info on how to do this....this is the first forum Ive ever used so some excuse?!!

Siobhan just wanted to check something. Are you doing ballet purely for pleasure or were you thinking you might want to come back to it more seriously and not just as a hobby? Anjuli_Bai yes a discussion about pirouettes would be great!!

Siobhan there is a similar topic on this forum still ongoing called Going Back to Ballet if you have a read there should give you some ideas but as to your question I would say no you haven't left it too late! and keep persevering. As you get older you will lose some flexibility and one stiffens up more quickly after breaks for hols etc but this should not put you off!! Ive been back twice now. First I gave up when 15 then took up at 21 till about 42. And now two years ago took up again in my sixties.....and am loving it even though I know I'll never jump as well as I used to and if I can aim now for a leg at 60-70 (would love 90) I'd be happy! It takes time for the muscle memory to come back if you've already done the basics but it will. As for pirouettes.....well that's another story!! Some days they're there and then some days you cant even pull one off!! There is some talk about this on the other forum. As you get a bit stronger again you may need to back up with another class as ballet is very difficult to progress in, on one class a week. You said "as much as I enjoy being back" and there's the key really if you enjoy it that's what you need to keep connecting with! Happy dancing and definitely don't give up yet!

It seems to be a while now since Ive woken up without a pain or a muddle somewhere! Yes I have muddled those two swan lake ones up as I thought there was only one anyway!! I think it's the City Academy one I sent the email to and I think that one is only two days. Haven't looked at the LAB one but if its longer than two days probably won't consider this year. I'm looking forward to my individual session with Franziska on Wednesday.....Ive never done an individual before but it's a chance to go over things that are really bothering you and get some advice on alignment and placing etc. it's not far from where I stay when inLondon so that's good too. Well pose turns must be de rigeur this week as we did them to end class today too! The studio in Portslade is huge so lots of room. I'm better on the right side than the left(where more likely to get dizzy or go of course) but not too bad today.....I prefer pose and soutenus turns to pirouettes.......though pirouettes in the middle of an enchainement like today...to Vivaldi's Autumn...are better than doing what I call dry exercise pirouettes as in a BBO or RAD grade class. I must get my act together about the Chelsea Ballet Summer School as haven't paid yet and I know Louise has just sold her house so need to check where to send etc. How are you going to organise Michelle.....are you doing all the classes everyday or mix and matching so to speak.....it's making up my mind about this which is delaying things. Since I did the Masterclass last week I think I would like to do Richards pm class but could I cope with a morning one as well? Decisions decisions I'll update on the leotard situation at a later date but thanks for you suggestions anyway.

My first three visits to the ballet were all quite different and important for different reasons . I started ballet at 7 but first visit to the theatre was not till I was about 12 in the late 50's to London to see a gala in which many notable dancers of the era were taking part including Fonteyn in the Firebird. Gilpin was still dancing and I got his autograph and Maria Tallchief was another. This trip made me decide I really wanted to,be a dancer however gave it all up when I was 15. My next trip to,the ballet was in 1969 just before I left College to the Oxford Playhouse where I saw Monotones...immediately fell in love with the music and ballet all over again and determined to pick up again.....which I did in Liverpool where I worked for next three years. I started classes at the Elliot-Clarke school there. The third trip was to see Northern Ballet Theatre at the very beginning of the company I think....about 1971-2. This was a performance at Sunlight Hall on the Wirral and I had my school ballet club girls with me....a great adventurous night out for them running across some playing fields doing ballet steps all the way home!! But shortly after this I decided that London was the place to be to both see and do ballet so off I went there for the next 30 years. All my subsequent ballet going has really been in London ever since and was lucky enough to see Fonteyn and Nureyev dance together and many wonderful dancers like Markarova, Baryshnikov and companies like Bejart over the years. I remember then queuing at Covent Garden (once for 13 hours) while the market was still there and on occasions being part of a group who organised the flower throwing after performances....heady days!

Am fairly new to this forum and am only just discovering all the topic threads here and just found this one. I can relate to many things said here. My mum died of lung cancer over ten years ago now but my dad just over 4 years ago and although there were awful aspects to losing both of them (ravages of disease etc) my dads was much more painful because I lost him twice....first to vascular degeneration which causes dementia and then when he finally died from a heart attack. He only really succumbed to the dementia in the last year of his life but it was difficult to deal with suddenly having to be "the parent" to my parent so to speak...especially my dad. I found that social services were not that keen to get involved while there is a son or daughter doing the main caring. And by the time I had finally managed to set things up it was too late. The main thing I had wanted to get going was wheels on meals as dad was just not eating properly. Of course being the generation he was this was virtually a no go area but eventually after months of trying managed to persuade him to try them for just three days a week. I told them not to ring him as he wouldn't remember we had arranged it. Unfortunately on the very first day they rang to "remind" him they were coming and of course he said he didn't want them and had never arranged it.....so that was that. I managed to engage the help of one of his neighbours in the end......who were all fantastic as had all known dad for years so were a godsend in the end as I could only go every weekend. Looking back there were some darkly comic moments too many to go into....like him describing his main meals to me on the phone every day(which I had left for him) and then arriving to see all the meals there and a fridge full of bread!! He must have accosted every neighbour and asked them to get him a Warburtons Toastie.......he seemed to live on bread and cheese. As I am an only child it was very hard work but at least I didn't have the problems some seem to have experienced here with siblings.....talk about rubbing salt into the wound! When he died one of my best friends said at least you won't have four brothers and sisters all shouting at you that you've got the funeral service all wrong!! Sympathies to all those going through all this right now.

Just to add that will soon be in possession of first leotard for 22 years thanks to JustBallet. Also had a reply from Wear Moi UK and they can apparently make a leotard to own measurements(not sure of the cost of that yet) so thanks to all who have helped with this!

I really don't know what's the matter with me today...perhaps because Ive had a very bad cold this week...after managing to get through the whole of winter without one...but went back to the Dog Show post and seen a very recent post there so will carry on with further pet comments on that forum and not this one!! But a ballet comment for here: I am committing myself to Franziskas day courses May 18th July 13th and last one in September...started with her February one and have a one to one with her next week.......something Ive never done before with ballet. So those plus the Chelsea Ballet summer school and possibly the Brighton summer school (if they don't clash) are probably enough for the time being. But next (academic) year will be much more aware of all these lovely ballet workshops going on for adults which I had no idea so many about. I am still tempted by the Swan Lake one if its not full yet but have a close friend over from Australia with her DD 13+ (who is hoping to do one of the summer schools...she has been offered ENB but they are waiting to hear from the one up in Yorkshire before making final decision) so don't want to find I have no time to be with them as only see every two years or so. Off to ballet tonight grade 6 BBO....and then tomorrow the rather more challenging ballet collective class....in the industrial estate in Portslade!! Happy dancing everyone.....just thought may meet up with you Michelle on the July pirouette course of Franziskas!

Hi Michelle maybe I'll get your name right this time!! Sorry about above post obviously not sure who I am today!!! I had a look at your dog post but not used to using forums yet and didn't look at dates at first so didn't realise your dog has since died as well till I went to the posts. What a difficult few years you have had. I'm posting this here because its a while since that doggy topic has had any contributions....and that's what I mean about understanding the Forum fully.....can you just carry on with a past topic if nothing recent on etc!! Your dog looked so lovely too. I got carried away with my likes too reading all the doggy stories so can't like anyone else's posts today!! Anyone's pet dying is just heartbreaking. I haven't had a dog since I was a child(Jack Russell) but a much beloved cat who was half Siamese and half tonkinese so a real talker died a couple of years ago. Toscar was 18 and a half and we were both heartbroken. We had him privately cremated down in the woods at Raystede an animal rescue centre not far from Lewes and his ashes are still in the cupboard surrounded by hundreds of animal toys I used to use in teaching(my now ex job). We bought a tree for him still in the pot in the garden and am now torn between putting his ashes with the tree or leaving them in the cupboard with all the animals!! But now am retired am thinking of a the possibility of a dog...hence the dog walking idea initially. I am happy to continue this line under the old doggy topic if that's appropriate as I realise not exactly about Back to Ballet but didn't want not to comment about your post Michelle. Perhaps the Moderators can help here.