Kerfuffle

It’s pretty clear that there has been a lot of painful experience here. It’s not easy being in a situation where your child is training right now either - it might seem unimportant to you but I did find those comments quite unfair. I don’t want this thread shut down either but we should be offering support to one another, whether our DCs dancing is in the past or present. That’s the way things will change.

@OndineI would like to know too. I would expect more support from here, we are all somehow related to arts training so surely have DCs with similar aspirations?

I’m sure you’re right. Let’s hope it results in some good !

Hi Peanut 68 . This Panorama was exactly the same week as a lot of upper schools started and was not an easy watch at all for us newbies! I will definitely follow your advice over checking how she is getting on. I think it has put me on edge now! I often tell DD it’s ok to change routes if she wants to. It’s so sad that you felt you couldn’t express your feelings when things went wrong for you. The bust reduction comment really is awful, nobody should have to hear that. The reason why I guess Panorama was particularly shocking was that these children were still ridiculously young to be told to “lengthen their lines”, an absurd comment to those still growing ! A girl I knew left upper school after a few weeks deciding it wasn’t what she wanted. She managed to slot back into her old school sixth form. I don’t know if she felt embarrassed and I think everyone understood it wasn’t for her. I don’t think anything you have said sounds trite. I remember feeling the pressure to succeed at art college mostly because it was the first time I had really been given a choice so it was my responsibility to keep going.

I said for most not all - this is a discussion that has mostly been about the experiences of children who trained from before 16, who were the subject of Panorama. Other than the girl talking about the upper school teacher talking about cutting off parts of her body the children in the film were this age group. Surely it’s logical then that what happens at this lower stage has some affect on their later training? And yes I know of very happy upper school students who were unhappy earlier on due to their treatment at those particular schools mentioned but I think it’s taken a while to recover from the pain and disappointment they have suffered. What I’m trying to ask (obviously badly) is that had these kids not had an awful time in these earlier years would their later experiences have been better? Is the ballet cult described by Luke Jennings made worse by these very early selections of children? Is the boarding school experience part of this?

I know you have explained what your daughter has been through and she was treated in the most appalling manner. I really sympathise with her and you too -she obviously deserved much better than this and should have been offered some guidance and the option to finish her degree at RBS. Can she take more A Levels online? Will she recover from her injury sufficiently to be able to teach?

Based on the Panorama programme - these are 11-16 year olds who have been damaged by their experience at lower school. If you have been bullied, have suffered an eating disorder or generally ill treated it’s going to affect how you respond to your 16+ training. If you’ve had supportive teachers up until then you are more likely to trust the teachers at upper school. This also happens in ordinary schools to some pupils - a bad early experience can take years to get over. I know this first hand. The arts sector is a major contributor to our country’s economy. A lot of my family and friends work in film, music and art sectors. It might be competitive but it is possible to have a career in these fields if you are interested in them. I think mine might get involved in education or teaching if they aren’t directly involved in being on stage or behind the scenes.

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out. For someone joining vocational for the first time it might be easier at least psychologically to switch because their whole identity isn’t wrapped around being a dancer. My DD is thrilled to be finally at upper school and able to specialise in what she’s interested in and in a broader sense, theatre. I can see her in other related areas if the ballet career doesn’t happen. My son is training as a musician (singer) , he’s 18, and if he doesn’t make it as a performer he too is likely to be in the performing arts. I don’t see their situations being that different to one another or her being worse off than he is.

What is so wrong about topping up to a performance degree, when that is what you’ve spent a lot of your life studying ? It doesn’t mean you can’t go on to get a job even in unrelated areas. Science and law are the closest to vocational types jobs where the training is specific but beyond that there are so many other careers that are wider in background experience. I know film makers who studied dance.

There are access courses all around the country for 19 +, these bridge the gap between GCSES and A Levels and lead to degree courses. Even in science and engineering . Some kids at my DD’s old school were a year older than their peer group for one reason or another so were 19 in year 13. A Levels can be taken at any age. There are also foundation degrees for those without A Levels. I think it sounds as though the early vocational school experience stunts the ability to adapt. Ballet requires phenomenal dedication but these days there aren’t as many jobs for life anywhere - I think this is what Gen Z is faced with, so as parents we need to encourage some flexibility in their ambitions.

At the moment she’s using a combination of Studio Pros and also now the handmade range. She’s at vocational school so they are getting a lot of wear. I think they last several weeks but might be in rotation. They last as long as the other pairs she used to have and are much better because they bend in the right place - so the wearing down is more to do with general deteriorating than breaking the shank which used to happen in her old shoes.

I think that is quite a common problem, so hard to tell what a shoe is like until you are in class, and then you find you’ve wasted a lot of money again! My DD gets her shoes from Freed London. I think they are good there, especially if your DD is a bit older (as in not looking for her first pair) so she knows what she’s looking for. She used to go to Bloch but found them very baggy at the heel (her foot shortens a lot on pointe). Freeds are shallower at the heel so don’t have that problem.

Three A levels at high grades is pretty hard to achieve even if not doing ballet on the side (let alone at vocational school)! I think something has to give. 10 GCSEs was bad enough last year for my DD! She was at ordinary state school, so no easing off for the sake of ballet training! In the end there is no easy solution, you either end up compromising your ballet training or your academics.

I think other art forms are also extremely competitive. Fine art for example often has fads where however talented you might be your work can be ignored for not being in vogue. Classical instrumentalists have to be devoted from a very young age. Sport also is a tricky area, I only know a bit about tennis which is extremely demanding, expensive with only a tiny proportion making it. What’s important is that young people feel supported and if need to can adjust to a different path. How many JAs make it through to upper school? I would guess very few, but they will still have had an enriching experience. Obviously the earlier you are in your training the lower the odds of making it so keeping children’s identity broader is a good idea - they don’t all have to be professional ballet dancers. There are so many related and unrelated fields to explore.

Yes it’s always been international - but this doesn’t justify the lack of success of home trained students into upper school . The truth is that there was only one who got into upper school, from the original year 7 cohort.

There are multiple factors involved in the exodus of British in WL. The present year 11 I think were the first to experience the major assessing out at the end of year 9, having come to the end of the foundation course. In the old days it was a yearly thing, a slower trickle out. I don’t believe there is any reason why RBS should be any different to Paris Opera Ballet which has a majority of French children. We aren’t that different as a nation or culture, fundamentally. YAGP creates baby ballerina celebrities - Instagram queens (and kings) who have huge followings. Because they are ambassadors there’s a natural expectation for them to win. These competition schools offer extremely intense training and the scholarships set up means their constant stream of foreign talent appearing at the affiliated schools in Europe. I guess the contrast with slower teaching is stark. I hope that Panorama is the starting point for improvements for British dancers. They (and their families) deserve better.

I don’t think their upper school has a look either. The only similarities seem to be in year 7 and JAs - that is when you see the same build/proportions. By year 10 they look much more varied - maybe because this is the age where the international students become a majority and are often YAGP winners.

Brilliant post @Anna C. Maybe finally all the issues you’ve mentioned will be addressed. It’s about time! There really isn’t much escuse for the sorry state of things.

That is so reassuring - my DD has a good set which I hope will stand her in good stead in the future. It was a fairly hideous slog but worth it !

That makes sense. One girl got in after the summer intensive and a few girls got offers at the YAGP finals I think.

I totally get what you’re saying but my DD is new to vocational school and is delighted to finally be able to devote herself to ballet. Juggling 10 GCSEs at an ordinary secondary school and dancing late every evening nearly wore her out. I think she’s so happy to have the academic content of her course relating to her dancing, there really isn’t any need for her to be pushing herself with other subjects.

The good thing is though that you don’t have to pay it back unlike a uni loans. I feel grateful it exists - it’s much harder for the international students.

It is a lot to get your head around, we discussed all options and it’s the best thing to do ! My DD hasn’t mentioned that any of her international friends are doing online studies. An American girl we met in the summer on an intensive said that she did online studies alongside her course at European Ballet School but I think maybe because she was only 15 and there wasn’t a formal qualification offered they allowed for that. I think in USA the students have time to do online studies as well as ballet training, maybe shorter hours. Perhaps the other Europeans recognise the diploma with degree option as being enough for them. I guess that if you’re moving countries to train you are probably more focused on your ballet education!

Do you mean in general or at ENBS specifically ? I’m not sure how you’d avoid doing the diploma - the academics and dancing are what the diploma course fundamentally is. https://www.trinitycollege.com/qualifications/PPAD/level-6-dance Doing A levels on the side could be possible but would be hard to fit in, their days at ballet school are very busy and long. The international students are also doing the diploma I think.

I guess it’s all swings and roundabouts! My thinking is you have your whole life to study academics but there is only a brief window where you can train to be a dancer, it’s like being an athlete.