Nico Kolokythas

35 minutes ago, Aurora3 said:

@Niko: But you have no explanation for the difference to pointework?

Other than that it’s probably exposure/training related nope!

11 hours ago, Aurora3 said:

@Niko Kolokythas: Can you tell me something about the difference between jump and pointework? Do jumps require more Type IIX fibres than pointe? Or is it just another coordination?  I´m pretty sure there must be a difference - I´m much better at pointework than jumps and I also see on other people that most have one which is better!

Think of it more like jumps need strength and the ability to “express” strength fast. Maybe you simply haven’t trained power and therefore you don’t feel as confident. Anecdotally I will tell you that girls who jump less than 25 cm feel they can’t jump (and they can’t really:))

13 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Are we re-inventing the wheel here? In the 18th Century the renowned teacher Noverre identified the two types of legs, arqué and jarretté, and the way they affected technique.  Arqué means bow legged, normally a tighter tendon and muscle formation which gives rise to great jumps.  Jarretté is more difficult to translate, but in effect means knock kneed and ankles that roll in. Much looser leg structure, which allows more flexibility, but is a physique that finds it harder to jump. The first type tend to be shorter and the second type taller, but not always so.

Definitely not re-inventing but surely progressing the wheel and trying to make the environment safer for the dancer, especially for the younger dancer. A documentary about the Russian academy recorded the director saying “he has Japanese muscles”, these are the things that may be dangerous in my opinion. 

46 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

 

Isn't part of the 'optical illusion' to do with upper body, arm & head carriage? If your chest and head are up, and arms stretched, you'll look higher, longer, leaner, than a sportsperson.

 

This is why we tend to think of ballet as - ultimately - art rather than sport.

It’s an art form and not a sport but even as an art form there are physiological rules. The problem is the belief that these rules don’t need to be followed 

45 minutes ago, Aurora3 said:

Maybe! But ballet is an art form, not a sport, so if the jump is beautiful, everything is fine!

For the type 1 and 2 fibers: Do type 2 fibers look more bulky then?

An art form that involves jumping therefore physiology is...physiology. A muscle doesn’t care if you walk, run, dance, jump, a muscle simply contracts and relaxes. Bulky muscles come from specific type of training that dancers do not need to do. 

On 17/07/2020 at 23:18, Emma northmore said:

@Nico Kolokythaswhat I am trying to say is, I constantly think outside the box and push boundaries. I would love to help these young dancers.  Therefore I would love for you to visit my school!!

 

Each dancer has bespoke set of work......so all issues you mention are well covered. No one has said pilates is the only way....just that I personally feel its use is tremendously helpful. Some dancers need weights, others swimming....everyone is unique.  I work out a programme per individual. But this discussion was on pilates (originally!)

we have zero injuries, and 100%success rate to upper schools.....

 

I have the luxury of the freedom to develop new theories of training without answering to a board and getting funding for it etc etc.   I would love it if you 'studied' my approach so it can be a written up,a shared system to help. Just a thought for the greater good! I genuinely love the science of it all so would like to delve deeper on my unique approach.

 

 

Not sure if I replied here! I understand that you are doing your best for your students @Emma northmore, and I am not doubting your knowledge and experience. Zero injuries is an achievement and you need to be proud of yourself. I am happy to discuss further in order to understand how many hours per day/week do your students dance so that I can get perspective. You mean Upper Schools in the UK or your Upper School? I agree Pilates may be helpful but not enough for the young body to develop. Swimming is an non-weight bearing exercise so it's good for recovery but a lot of use for strength development in dancers. I am more than happy to discuss this further so feel free to DM me on facebook if you wish.

On 16/07/2020 at 07:27, Farawaydancer said:

Is there little or no evidence because there haven’t been any studies conducted on young people/dancers? Or do the studies show that pilates makes no difference in these groups?

 

There are no studies in dancers but there are in young people with musculoskeletal issues and the results are not that promising (see attached). Pilates is very low intensity exercise for a young person, therefore, you might be missing out on human potential if you just use this form of training for youth. 

4 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Nico I think you made an important point, pupils studying ballet are not mini adults. Their bodies are different and still developing. That is why I would take issue with Emma's assertion earlier in this thread that a dancer who has been a professional for many years knows technique and how the body works. Yes that is fine for teaching adults and very advanced older students,  but it is not enough. A good teacher training course which addresses child development - physical, mental and emotional is essential.

Thank you for your comment @Pas de Quatre I agree with you. In sport in order to train the elite, high performance success is a bonus but not a guarantee for getting the job. One needs to work him/herself up. In dance, personal success as a pro seems to be enough to become an elite teacher with a certificate, that in sport would be a level 2 certificate of coaching. A level 2 gives you the right to coach but doesn’t make you a coach. Ballet teacher training would benefit from coaching education, anatomy and physiology and it should be a lot longer than it currently is, in my humble opinion always 

11 hours ago, Emma northmore said:

I must say well done drdance......your Facebook post asking for back up has brought many well informed people on to this forum! Nico is always great.

 

From a dancers perspective ...... and I love the science......but irrespective of what the research says.........pilates was a godsend for me and so many of my colleagues.

The focused exercises helped us as students, develop the neural pathways to each individual muscle group......therefore, when asked in a class setting to engage the lats (for example) or inner thighs......it was far easier to immediately make those connections and ensure the right muscle groups were working.

As a pro after a broken foot - I managed to return much improved havimg only donr pilates for 4 months - even earning a promotion from it!!!

 

I have used both imagery and pilates to get less than perfect bodies in to top vocational upper schools. So whilst not understanding the science at your level - the uses have been proven over and over again.

 

Nico you are welcome to observe a class over a period of time to see how i create these transformations as i am genuinely   curious as to why the science doesn't support it.

 It only works on the most dedicated dancers!

 

I will leave you all now to your scientific discussions as my brain is fried from Covid-19 risk assessments!!!!

Everything works with dedicated dancers Emma! I’m happy to observe and I’m sure you know that I am as critical with my own work. 

1 minute ago, Farawaydancer said:

Are you including the students you’ve worked with in the lower school there @Nico Kolokythas? Surely if they’ve been following your programme for a number of years in LS there shouldn’t be ‘catching up’ to do when they get to upper school? (This year is obviously an exception, everyone will have catch up to do!) 

@Farawaydancer thank you for clarifying, I was referring to new students and yes we are observing a difference between new students and students who come from the LS. With the male population I would say the transition is getting better, with the female population we are not there yet but lockdown has helped a lot and I think it will be a turning point.  

11 hours ago, Emma northmore said:

But Nico.....i have used this over and over again now to great success for students entering upper school......

I’m not disputing the quality of your work @Emma northmore but I am sure you understand that training in developmental ages has to follow some physiological rules. An adolescent student of dance is not a dancer, in other words he/she is not a miniature adult. Dance and in particular ballet is treating, at times) the young body as a miniature adult. Supplementary training for young dancers cannot be based only on what we think is right (don’t forget our bias), but it needs to be based on some form of evidence other than our own opinion (which is biased). Please check the literature for youth development and tell me where does it say that Pilates is the key to developing a young body. I’m not saying Pilates shouldn’t be used but I’m saying it is not enough. Landing from a simple jump can produce ground reaction of 3.5-5 times the body weight of a child and rates of force of around 500 times of body weight/second. Now honestly when you know the above, can you honestly believe that Pilates is the only thing a young body needs to develop force production and absorption physiological properties?  And if the answer is yes, can I please read some evidence about it? If the answer is no...well
 

Keeping in mind that Joseph Pilates was a very weak individual who found a way to train himself. He never said Pilates is the key to development of a child. He was an adult. Also, if he hadn’t gone to New York and if M.Graham and Balanchine weren’t so avant-garde things might have been different now. Lastly, these two dance superstar names were avant-garde ...past tense ...what about now? Shouldn’t we use the knowledge we have to evolve practice? Shouldn’t we think out-of-box? Shouldn’t we be avant-garde? Isn’t this how medicine evolved? Building on experience and discovering new ways to a better world. 
 

We have had similar debates and I’m sure you understand that this is an exchange of opinions and not an attack on someone’s opinion. We do need to push practice to more evidence-based, not personal-evidence simply because “wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it, and right is right even if no one is doing it”!

I’m yet to see a student (male or female) coming to the upper school and think “yep strong”. They usually need to catch up of minimum one year of resistance training and they feel intimidated. I will be presenting next week at the RAD conference discussing this topic even further for anyone who may be interested. 
 

@Emma northmore always a pleasure to debate with you. 

10 hours ago, Emma northmore said:

Precisely! BALLET pilates....

You can't beat many decades of proof long before anyone looked at the science behind it.

I enjoy investigating it all but would prefer scientists are more open to observing professionals and what they entrust to keep their careers alive.

85% will be doing pilates daily!

Precisely! We investigated and saw over 60% injury prevalence in professional dancer (In pre-professional it is worse) with the majority of the injuries in the lower limb and the majority of the injuries being of overuse onset. There is a place Pilates but it cannot be the only thing a dancer does simply because dance and Pilates put little force through the body but the body needs to cope with a lot of force when landing from a jump! 

4 minutes ago, Emma northmore said:

of course pilates can change the shape of your muscles.  It tones, defines and strengthens. Whilst not a scientist I am living breathing proof! I myself reshaped my body using pilates! Pilates  literally gave me my career. Am I not real?!😉

You are also, like all of us, the creation of your confirmation bias. Science is there to guide and control and sometimes confront this bias. Whilst what you are describing did happen to you, it does not mean that the reasons it happened are the reasons you are thinking.This is not to offend your opinion or experience but simply to give perspective. Athletes have similar ideas sometimes, they believe that if they do exactly what another successful athlete did they will be successful too. Unfortunately...not the reality. 

5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

Hello Nico and welcome to the Forum!

Hello @Jan McNulty and thank you. My aim is to promote (as much as I can and it is possible) evidence-based practice into a traditional environment (such as ballet), so thank you for giving me the opportunity to contribute

2 hours ago, Peony said:

yes I did pick up that the studies were not in dancers and were in adults, some post menopausal but your statement referring to Pilates was general. They also didn’t appear to be of particularly high quality, With sample sizes of 25  etc they’re also unlikely to meet confidence intervals on their own, but there did appear to be a large number of studies showing the same thing. So it would suggest that Pilates does have an effect on strength. I didn’t find any studies in dancers or young people. Is there sufficient evidence either way? Why does it build strength in older adults and not younger ones? As I said, if the message is that it’s not the most effective way I can understand that but I honestly can’t see that it doesn’t build strength, it’s certainly not my personal experience

@Peony if a person is untrained or very unfit, or coming back from an injury there will be some strength development. After that stage the overload is not large enough to continue with the adaptations. For general population, this is an excellent form of exercise, but for an elite performance population I am afraid there is very little evidence or logic to keep doing something that is of such low intensity simply as a feel good factor. Joseph Pilates did not make Pilates for dancers, but he was a good salesman. 

@Peony yes it does but always look at the population they are referring! These are the titles of the studies of your links:

• Effects of a Pilates exercise program on muscle strength, postural control and body composition: results from a pilot study in a group of post-menopausal women
• Effects of Pilates exercise on trunk strength, endurance and flexibility in sedentary adult females
• Pilates versus resistance training on trunk strength and balance adaptations in older women: a randomized controlled trial
• Effects of Pilates exercise on trunk strength, endurance and flexibility in sedentary adult females

On sedentary and elderly population of course, but is this relevant to dancers and in particular young dancers?

Actually there is little if no evidence at all it works for youth

@DD Driver Hi there, there are some misconceptions and misinformation about strength training. What you are saying is not exactly right. Yes it depends on the protocol one uses but there are many factors that play part in the creation of big muscles. 
 

A few of the main factors are:

- frequency (how many times per week. Body builders workout 6-7 days per week. Dancers can only afford a couple of hours per week

- intensity (how heavy can you and do you go). Body builders are constantly pushing their limits , dancers don’t need to

- nutrition (how many calories one consumes). Body builders eat above 5000 kcal per day, dancers barely cover the survival needs and are afraid of food. 
- drugs. Female body builders take drugs. Dancers don’t! 

@sillysally this is a story often heard in the ballet world. So, having done a PhD on adolescent ballet dancers I can tell you the following:

- not all bodies are made for ballet. The proportions of leg:torso are very important to the aesthetic look. 

- activating the wrong fibers is not making the thighs bulky. There is absolutely no evidence that this can happen, but yet this notion is quite strong in ballet 

- growth and maturation is a random, and very individual process that needs to be respected. 
- a young female may stop growing (in height) but still be going through maturation, and therefore continuously changing her body composition and potentially look. 
- the elliptical machine is not building her quads, but is also not benefiting her in strength development 

- strength training will not make her bulky

- strength training is not Pilates or Progressing Ballet Technique 

- strength training that is appropriate to her age can help her feel more confident, but also will make her look leaner. 
- her height and weight sound absolutely normal, and so do her nutrition habits, so if her menstruation cycle is normal there is nothing to worry about.
- if she strives to lose weight she will have to cut down calories, which is never a good thing as the majority of young dancers under-eat. 
- stop looking at the scales and allow the body to go through maturation. This process might keep changing the look of the body until the age of 21-22, maybe older. No one can be certain. 
- educate her about the fact that being a woman,  her cycle will make feel and look different within one month 

- if menstruation hasn’t started it’s best to check with the GP

- anxiety levels go up with body image issues. Healthy eating, healthy training and education helps. 
- if she has already chosen a contemporary route, great, help her love her body. 
- in Bern university there was a very inquisitive group of dancers, ex-dancers and other professionals seeking knowledge and understanding so that they can advise young and professional dancers. 
- join Science and Dance science forums so that you can get some evidence-based advice. 
 

The International Association of Dance Medicine and Science (IADMS) is always a good start. 
 

-Science for Dance Educators on Facebook is also worth looking for
 

PS: Most of  my statements can be justified with some form of scientific evidence. Be mindful of the statements that can’t!

Best wishes

Nico