Ruby Foo

There are lots of students at RBS who do not have flat turn out or anything close. This is first hand experience. 
Most have good turn out, a few flat and a small minority slightly less than good. 

Obviously if you struggle with your turn out you are more likely to get injuries in the long run, not just in the hips but throughout the whole lower leg. So even if you progress through lower school it will almost definitely catch up with you at some point, which is worth considering.

I believe there are a few professional dancers with slightly less than required turnout. Merle Park was one, I believe.

I can’t tell you about the audition format as everything has changed with the new programme of re auditioning for the final years. In the old days there were around 20/25 candidates in an audition. I guess it’s all the usual things to think about such as leaving plenty time for travel ( especially with the strike situation), taking snacks and water, spare dance clothes and shoes in case of disaster. Wearing a leotard that’s not cut so low at the back, in case your number is pinned to your bum rather than your back. Don’t pin the number too high either.  Keep warm up clothes on till the last minute as stretching often used to be near the beginning of the audition. Staying calm and focused and try not to pay too much attention to others except to make friends!

A strong sense of performance would be my tip for moving on. Moving fluidly and musically, fully using the given space and performing with confidence and a great sense of joy from the very beginning to end. Smiling always helps. Good Luck.

9 hours ago, Babyballerinamum said:

Has anyone applied to the US or Canadian schools SIs? Are they worth it? We have friends/family who could accommodate our 11 yr old

The downside of these intensives are that they usually start long before our schools break up for summer and run for many weeks - 5 weeks for SAB. You must take part in the full session and they are completely inflexible about negotiating doing less weeks or starting late. They are also extremely expensive although some scholarships available.

Upside, they are great for dancers 15 plus because they are ‘ intense’ and pointe work is at the forefront which is often sadly lacking in some UK summer schools.

It’s always hard when your first audition is a ‘no’ but you and your daughter need to keep a clear head and carry on with the audition programme you have organised. It will be even more important to boost your daughter’s confidence, while reflecting on the first audition plus staying realistic. How did she feel the first audition went?

Is there anything she would like to do differently? Could you organise a couple of privates to give confidence and polish before the next audition?

I know for definite it’s possible to be refused at Tring and go on to be offered places at Central and Kings. Stay positive and good luck.

The important factors are her physical suitability, musicality and performance skills. At this stage it’s all about potential. It won’t matter that she hasn’t had the experience of the others  or that her technique is not as advanced, providing she goes into the audition with confidence ( strong eyeline and expressive face - usually smiling at this young age)

As your daughter has been doing other types of dance then she probably knows how to perform and to have the confidence to show herself off to her best in the audition, which is very important. 

If she hasn’t done an audition before then try to ask someone who has, for some tips so your daughter is well prepared.

I can imagine how worried you must be wondering if and when to step in and what to do for the best.

I guess, we’ve all had experiences of trying new things or moving to new places which we’ve grown to love over time and that haven’t been a hit straight away. So if your dc seems in a reasonably stable place, it might be worth sticking in there for a little longer.If your dc has longed for this experience for a while then maybe the reality just doesn’t match up to their expectations and therefore it all seems a little flat.

Maybe you could ask your dc to specify exactly how being at vocational school feels different from their previous school. Homesickness  is a very big spectrum which is often difficult to communicate and can sometimes lead to confusion and a blanket of despair. Being able to list the negatives and positives and how they make your dc feel inside might help, especially if they can see that our experiences are changing all the time as we grow and nothing stays the same for very long.

Although the vocational schools all have their issues, they do have very different atmospheres/ vibes. So maybe this one is just not quite the right fit. 

Definitely different from UK SI’s. Much more emphasis on allegro and pointe. Fast paced and builds stamina and strength especially in pointe work. Nothing to compare in UK regarding pointe. Pointe shoes become your second skin. Refreshing  to mix with a different crowd of students. Disadvantages - the spiky hands!

We have reality and then we have hope..I love your post NotadanceMa. And I believe in it. I believe in improvements which will benefit these young and vulnerable humans in delivering  their potential. It's good that parents see the nuances in those changes as positive because that is what will eventually change things for the better.
HOWEVER this is a post re 1st hand experience

It is a post about the reality of students suffering NOW. Right now. I don't believe it is a negative post. I believe it to be a helpful way to change the situation so that ALL students receive decent teaching that is positive and helpful to that student because that is the agreement we entered into when we paid a large sum of money to a school to teach our children. It is also the agreement our children entered into when they physically break themselves day after day. They do it to get the feedback they need to improve.

We are the grown ups. We are beyond worrying if our child is a favourite. We are beyond worrying if our child is chosen for performance opportunities. All we are asking is that the teacher nurtures and teaches our child to the best of their ability so that our child can reach their potential. They may never gain a contract in Classical ballet and that's absolutely fine!  We understood that on signing them in. It is not news. What is NOT okay is systematic abuse of students( however small the numbers) belittling students, humiliating students, ignoring students ( no corrections for a very long period of time, sometimes a whole year) and never praising or giving any sign at all of any development or positive feedback ( for 1 entire year) despite the students working like Trojans at the few corrections initially given.
As parents, and fellow humans please ask yourself if you care enough to understand that this situation is happening today. 
When I read posts re certain schools, what strikes me is how black and white the situations appear. It is just not like that in reality! It is a confusing, uncertain picture with many chaotic examples and references. 
I have just given you some above. But for some students in that same class, it is an entirely different scenario. They receive praise when they improve. They are helped and nurtured. Next year, with a different teacher, those students may be the ones who are not getting the help and nurture and waste a year of precious time.

Its this inconsistency that is worrying and creates tension and anxiety for everyone.

This is only my first post, there is more, because it's important to discuss scenarios that are happening right under our noses. And not to do that, would mean collaborating in something that is wrong.

And although this post is referencing a certain school, I know for a fact, it goes on in them all.

I have recommended Sarah so many times on this forum and rightly so because she is a rare gem of a teacher in so many ways.

There is no one I rate higher than Sarah for helping students to achieve very high technical standards. Helping them to understand their issues and how to overcome them in a positive and encouraging environment. Sarah makes it her job to know the student personally and approaches teaching with warmth and humour. She is firm  but kind, and, most importantly, perseveres until there is improvement. She breaks components down to manageable levels and gives lots of support with complimentary exercises.

Sarah has helped so many students and vocational students over the years and from personal experience we are truly thankful for her dedication.

55 minutes ago, Theodore19 said:

I have always remembered  a phone call that my DS son made from WL. A boy from Japan had been taken into his year group after an overseas competition was asked to stand in front of the other boys and pirouette. 

He did several turns, and when he finished the teacher than shouted at the class. Why can't you do that?

My son replied because you haven't taught us!!!...

Why are talented driven, children picked from hundreds spending hours learning charactor dances and then assessed out and replaced with dancers trained overseas and them passed off as being Royal Ballet Students 

The million dollar question that everyone's been asking for a very long time.....

58 minutes ago, NotadanceMa said:

I love your observation about students blossoming at different stages. My teen is a slow burner, hitting puberty has brought about a significant mental sea change. Predominately for them  a need to stay true to themselves and to resist what they believe is an outdated mode of dance training methods by some. It’s not an easy path to take. They also recognise they are slower to learn, no less talented but technique is something they have to work really hard at to master as the movements become faster and more complex. Artistry and musicality are their strengths, but the system favours students who learn quickly still and don’t challenge the status quo. (In their experience)
They have also decided to stand by the aspects of their artistry that set them apart from others. Teachers have said at various points on their training route that unless the technique is incorrect, you need to do you, if you like something about your style then analyse it and decide whether you want to keep it. Tastes vary. For me this is a very important part of being a teenager, finding out who you are and who you want to be. Dance can enhance and stifle those areas in equal measures.

I notice my child moving, inching slightly toward schools like Rambert.

The Forsythe evening from ENB was a revelation for them. 
Not a very clear post, but ‘assessing out’ can also be a positive thing, reframing your child’s experience to date, recognising that your child is bucking a system that doesn’t fit them, not the other way around. I understand at the time it can feel absolutely devastating. 

 

I am constantly waiting for my teen to be assessed out. 😬

 

There is a wonderful book called 'Elements of a Classical Ballet Technique' by Karel Shook which devotes a whole chapter on the importance of the relationship between the student and the teacher in ballet. It discusses all aspects including the huge responsibility and the importance of understanding and respecting the student as a whole - their whole being- in order that the strength and trust in the relationship can blossom. Reading it is quite a revelation and had a huge impact on me as a teacher. He describes the uniqueness of this bond and also the pitfalls teachers fall into when they are ' needy'.  It seemed miles away from the teaching we generally see in vocational schools, where despite relatively small class sizes, students are taught 'en masses' and expected to reach a required standard set by the establishment, by the establishment, whether they are ready or not. Sometimes the student can even be ignored in these establishments for months on end or even worse humiliated rather than encouraged and helped.

The good news is that vocational schools are improving ( albeit too slowly) and that sometimes now students will be removed for extra help and tuition on a one to one basis. Not quite the relationship mentioned in the book but better than nothing.

Also, as Kate_N rightly points out, there are plenty diamonds out there. The one I'm thinking about is Desire Samaii who encompasses everything that is wonderful about a teacher, creating truly fulfilling and nurturing one to one relationships within the confines of vocational school. I hope all students will find and have the experience of a Desire Samaii somewhen in their tuition. Sadly, I don't believe there are many of this book around now but happy to lend. 
Reading about Isadora Duncan can also help to inspire young dancers who feel their values and uniqueness are being eroded.

On 05/07/2022 at 08:45, Whiteduvet said:

I wouldn’t necessarily see it as a sign of good training in the younger years. In my experience JA’s and to a large extent early year WL and MA’s are mainly about physique. 

 
Physique is obviously an important factor but there will be other elements too in which good teaching would be an element. Maybe not for young JAs but certainly for WL, a solid basic technique where the student has learned the correct posture, turnout and use of the floor and where no bad habits have been allowed to creep in anywhere, so that the student is a blank canvas with the very basic understanding of good classical technique. Then all the other natural elements such a good elevation, musicality, sense of performance, line and poise, focus and intelligence.

Again, a good teacher would be able to nurture those raw talents.

Not an expert on what they are looking for by the way, but just common sense.

3 hours ago, Kate_N said:

@Peanut68your DC obviously had difficulties in their training, but I really want to defend ballet teachers! I don’t think it’s fair to make such generalisations and paint all teachers with the same brush. I know many, many teachers who genuinely want the best for the students.
 

And if their students do well, why shouldn’t teachers let others in their dance community know? Why should the dancer not be celebrated? And why should not parents who know little about dance see that success, and draw inferences from it about the teacher’s expertise?

 

None of these things is unreasonable.  And most teachers are not out to destroy their students. 

 
It's a complex picture. The teachers we most respect are those who respect their pupils. Who are prepared to put themselves OUT of the picture and coach their students according to their student's potential both physically and mentally. To fully and completely understand the students mental and physical state and to take time to nurture their talents. The success of a student gaining a place at vocational school is their pupil's success! It is a small step in that students forwardly direction, if that's the direction they've chosen ( and there are many!) Making the mark of success an acceptance at a particular school would be appear a little naive and foolish given what we know of particular vocational schools. Would that same student be accepted at Paris Opera? Vaganova? SAB? San Francisco?  It's is a small step in a positive direction if that is the direction you have chosen and of course there should be a celebration that someone thinks you are worthy at that particular moment in time or indeed, see you have potential. Of course your teacher is proud of you! However, there are slow burning students who don't peak until age 19, who don't follow the social rules of instagram and who don't necessarily look that appealing at 11 yrs. And suddenly it's the story of the tortoise and the hare. One has fallen by the wayside where the other is overtaking. It's that trust of the coach to believe in their student, to follow through with quiet persistence rather than clock up how many students are accepted to a particular school. It's a tricky and complicated picture made more so by social media.

18 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:

@valentinaDo you mean that the school itself (teaching staff) are shunning the pupils? What would be your advice to students hoping to train 16+? 

My advice is to find yourself an incredible couple of teachers who will nurture and work as a mature partnership with your son or daughter daughter at the very highest level. Giving them as much as they give. And with mutual respect at the heart of everything. It's perfectly possible to do but not at all easy. There are lots of wonderful teachers out there who can replicate that training with lots of planning to add in pas de deux, Pilates, Contemporary, Strength and Conditioning etc. but you will need money, and pots of it! 
Its a gamble... and you may be one of the lucky ones who incurs no issues at school. You may sail through and have a very rewarding experience as many do. The training is incredibly tough but amazing if you can cope and are lucky to be seen positively by the teacher.

Being assessed out, and all that means, both negatively and positively, is just one dimension. The stress and pressure are only just beginning for those staying on. Overseas students being taken in in yr 10, quickly becoming favourites due to their much advanced ability, do not necessarily make it to Upper School and even if they do, can find themselves falling out of favour and being shunned for the new student just beginning. Just because you are in Upper School does not mean ( whoever you are and wherever you came from) that you are free from a particularly nasty and underhand, verbal and emotional abuse which can leave you broken and in tatters. This can be sustained for a very long period of time and lead to students suffering mentally and physically. This shunning process is often done in the cruelest and subtlest of ways ( so there's little movement for complaint) and leaves perfectly able students (a fact backed by other professional teachers) feeling completely broken and that they should give up thinking of a career in Ballet. All this can happen in lower school too of course, but there's a general sense that once you reach Upper School, you've made it. Hope this dispels that myth.

I think it would be fair to say that certain vocational schools are like magpies. They see something they like and take it. Before long, something prettier comes along and the original is replaced. This continues throughout the whole training process which undermines the word 'training'!

27 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Another example of how this crazy ballet world can get us obsessing about one tiny detail & worrying if it’s a life changing issue!! 
Try thinking about how using those incredibly designed structures we call feet give you so much service & pleasure - whether it’s jumping for joy, walking to the fridge for a cold drink, running for a bus or dancing for the pure love of it!!!

Exactly Peanut! Well said!

I am 170 cm and take size 39. I have never thought of my feet being small and it never crossed my mind in dance training either.

All shoes will usually need a Demi pointe broken in before wearing. Freeds are typically fairly flimsy so understandably don't need much in comparison to the Russian makes which are generally much tougher to break in. It will really depend on the back she has chosen and how she likes her shoes. From what you've said  about her type of feet and taking a general shoe, I would gently manipulate the backs in the correct places so they are easier and more supple for her to work with. I would recommend a 3/4 shank so the heel  of the shoe won't need anything. Don't flex them too low down or they will bend in the wrong place giving the feet a broken line. It's just slightly above the natural arch that you want to flex. I suggest asking your teacher to show you, unless she's dead against it. Manufactured very flexi backs won't need much at all.

Have you tried Merlet split sole?

Some very professional dance students wear these. Dancia Covent Garden should be able to offer a good fitting for these although we have had mixed fittings there in the past.

Congratulations to your daughter! Becoming a JA is a lovely step to having some detailed ballet tuition under the guidance of experienced teachers, plus meeting other friends who are interested to do more ballet. 
It doesn't mean you need to go any further than that. It can stay as something special and extra that she does purely because she loves dancing. Plenty children will decide quite early that they want a career in dance and see JA's as a stepping stone to Vocational School to meet those needs. Equally, plenty children will decide to wait to make that decision and plenty will want to keep it as a hobby. There are many children who are accepted to vocational school, having never been a JA. Being a JA is a wonderful experience but it's not a golden ticket to becoming a professional classical dancer. There are many possibilities and choices and upsides and downsides to them all. My advice is to listen to your family values and not get caught up in anything you are unsure of or feel uncomfortable about. Oh, and enjoy every moment, in the moment, 😊

Another recommendation from me for Kerry and Jose. Both superb teachers and lovely kind people.

A Russian student in my daughter's year group( age 15) SI,  had a fringe and wore it down for everything including the parent watching day. They didn't seem to mind at all and as far as I know she was never told to change it. It actually really suited her.  I would say it's fairly unusual to have a fringe down. Maybe you could call and check?

Some other options might be Anna du Boisson at West London School of Dance, Masters of Ballet Academy or Nicola Moriarty at Woodside Ballet Academy.

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/london-junior-summer-school-2022-registration-209973094177