Ruby Foo

1 hour ago, Graceful said:

I think you’ve had a very positive experience of regular school! I have heard horrendous things happen in regular schools and you’re shut down by the school closing ranks immediately. (I also had a terrible time at regular school and I was given absolutely no support and nothing happened to the school or staff).

My own dc was verbally and physically abused by teaching assistants and a deputy head at regular primary school and nothing was done. The school closed ranks. 

 
I’m very sorry to hear this and others that have experienced similar in regular schools.

It appears we were lucky in that regard. 
Much harder to bring the abusers to justice without witnesses. And those often not willing to speak out. 

4 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

Just to add, through my non dancing kid’s education, they had a huge variety of different teachers through the academic day. Not the same teacher for class every day for a whole year or even two. If my dd could have had a different perspective from a different teacher once in a while, it might have been a more balanced and wholly different outcome.

59 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

All I can add to the mix for those yet to start their dance journey is that mine is in the system and has been for several years. They said they didn't recognise the allegations personally (that doesn't mean they don't happen) and her time has been overall a happy and enjoyable one.

 

Sure at aged 11 and still now they had some ropey times, home sickness, the feeling they weren't doing so well and feedback about improvements. Having to hear on the phone about things that were upsetting them obviously worried us but they were normally sorted out but to be honest the cause of most the grief were other students 

 

Mine also wouldn't say boo to a goose and that lasted a few years until they found their feet. There were teachers they liked and some they didnt. When some boys and girls were assessed out of course you would ask about them and it would either be a surprise or more often that not it wouldn't. New students that came in were to a large extent better dancers if you asked about them

 

Would I have done something different. No, if that's were they wanted to be to try to become a dancer then I'll support them in anything they do. The local comprehensive for my other kids was challenging on a completely different level to anything at WL. I wouldn't want to be a kid again in normal school. Imagine what a panorama program would think about the general schooling system.....

 

 

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

30 minutes ago, BaffledBalletMum said:

This is such an important part of the loss. Do you mind sharing how being assessed out impacted her studies? Assuming she was in US. Did it interrupt A-levels? Did it prevent her from completing the diploma and/or the Bachelors that is available.  

  I will pm you if that’s okay?

My dd had a relatively happy time at WL with a couple of wonderful and talented teachers ( one in particular) who were encouraging annd supportive and bringing out the best in my dd. However, that was not the case for every student which my daughter witnessed. And that’s what this thread is about. Those who are damaged unnecessarily. And it is unnecessary. There doesn’t need to be any assessments if the AD made it his job to know his students by teaching them. Not knowing a student’s name after 5 years is plainly not acceptable and frankly terrible management. If students were treated as individuals, collaborators in their own training they would know themselves, that staying at RBS would not be productive for them. It wouldn’t be some traumatic shock because it would have been discussed in a healthy, positive respectful manner long before the event and students who’s best interests lay elsewhere would have been supported- not just in one, one off meeting, but along the journey, building their relationships with other schools, other forms of dance, choreography, teaching etc. 

No one needs to be told to leave the year before graduation. There are no replacements in that year so why? 
Why? Because the graduation year is the representative year for RBS and they can’t show anybody who doesn’t meet the standard. Well, that’s fair but part of that standard is their own teaching and they have to be, at least partly accountable for that. My dd wasted several years being demolished by one teacher and regularly told her ‘ basics’ weren’t there by another.

I would ask ‘ why were the basics not there after 3 years at WL?  Especially as when she auditioned for the school the AD asked her  in the interview for yr9 ’Where did that beautiful technique come from’ ? So where did that beautiful technique go? That is a question. Dd would have accepted she was not to be ‘ shown’ to the world if she could have stayed and finished her degree. She would have traded being invisible to finish her degree.
Academic work was always important to her and she worked hard for 2 years to get a degree.

The school will tell you they help you after assessment. I would say that’s an extremely generous spin on what actually happens. For a start, they have never bothered to get to know you so they have no idea what you want to do and while they will put you in a studio and film an audition sequence for the schools you’ve written on your list, it is deeply impersonal and its obvious it’s just procedure.

There are no meetings with the AD, as I said, he remains an enigma.

I also know that after been assessed out students are expected to hang about the studios while others are in rehearsals for their performances. Not a nice place to be or a useful place to be.

So the fact that my daughter had a reasonably happy time for some of the years at RBS does not change the fact that the core practices and values do not connect to healthy practices.

34 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I don't know how much feedback is given to anyone 'assessed out'.  I'm assuming there must be some.

 

A jury with a marking system,  a subjective opinion... neither are infallible sadly.

 
There is no feedback. No opportunity to talk to anyone.

Its a two line email stating the assessment was unsuccessful.
 

6 hours ago, capybara said:

I have just looked at Vadim Muntagirov's recently published autobiography From Small Steps to Big Leaps to see whether he says anything about his training at the RBS. One has to remember, of course, that he arrived at the RBS via the Prix de Lausanne and from a brutal teaching regime in Perm - and that he was ultra talented.

 

Nevertheless, he comes out with a few telling statements about the interpersonal relationships between staff and students, for example: "I really felt that (X) cared about us all"; "approachable teachers"; "feedback including compliments"; "discipline and high expectations combined with support". Then, when referring to his joining ENB in the first instance: "I have always felt that the people around me at the time had my best interests in mind".

 

https://shop.roh.org.uk/products/vadim-muntagirov-from-small-steps-to-big-leaps-book  among other retailers, of course.

 

 

There were students in my daughters year ( US) who were getting the tuition they paid for. Who were being given the attention they deserve and / need to progress within RBS. They have a positive experience with teachers who ‘care’ and ‘nurture’

Then there are the few who are not.  Who, from week 3 of 1st year have caught the teachers eye in a negative way and whose difficulties become an issue that cannot be addressed without bullying or being ignored or not given any performance opportunities whatsoever because they simply can’t be shown to represent RBS/ embarrassment. These minority students will have a very different experience. They have already been negatively marked in some way and are no longer worthy of working with in the same context as the students with the potential. 
There will be plenty people reading this who will say the usual stuff about ‘ getting used to disappointment’ or ‘this is the ballet world’ etc etc.

What I would say is that ALL students that have been accepted to US should be given care and nurture and if difficulties arise then then even more reason to address them and to help that student reach their potential, whatever that may be. Young people are not commodities to be discarded when something more attractive appears. This is a school we are talking about. Not a company.

Just wondering if your dd has time to heat some soup and put it in a flask?

There are some reasonably healthy ready made soups out there and she could add microwave noodles which take just a minute. If she had time to make some soup over the weekend and freeze it then even better, but that’s maybe pushing it. There are plenty squat flasks suitable for rice ( 2 minutes in microwave) which she could add chicken or salmon, edamame and soy sauce. Would give her something hot during the winter.

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

Several years ago I watched a documentary about Usain Bolt. Much of it showed young Jamaican runners during their training, and the difference between that and what ballet students go through was jaw-dropping. They were continually told they were the best of the best, that they were amazing and their self-esteem was through the roof. That's how to train world-beaters. You tell them how great they are, and they respond to that positive encouragement, and genuinely believe they can achieve anything if they train hard enough and put their minds to it. Failure is not an option in their minds, and they go out and win.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

This is exactly it! 
And the more a student struggles the more help and positivity and motivation and nurture they need - not the other way about! Where did this distorted teaching come from?

I asked my dd if, in the year she was beaten down and crushed by the teacher, she had received any positive feedback at all. Any one single positive comment? My dd was very certain that in a whole years tuition(?) the teacher had not said one single positive word to her despite my dd taking the corrections (mostly humiliating) and working on them late into every night trying so very hard to please her.

No wonder, she felt  couldn’t take it anymore 

2 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

I was thinking about this thread this week when we had a feedback call with my son's sports coach from the talent development pathway he is on. He has (as far as the sport is concerned) a significant physical deficiency that can't be changed - basically he is too short to make it to the very highest level, no matter what else he does. But that's always been treated fairly.  No false hopes, and no disparaging comments either. We discussed his strengths and weaknesses candidly. No platitudes and the coach is definitely not "soft" but she also pointed out what he's achieved, where he is improved and what other areas need work to further compensate for his lack of height.

There are kids on the pathway that are probably destined for the Olympics in due course. My son is not one of them and he knows it, but he has never felt that he is just there to make up the numbers, there's a genuine desire to make him the best player he can be even if it's not the national team. There isn't just one end game and nothing else matters. After getting his feedback he has decided to attend this year's trials (everyone had to try out again every year, nobody automatically progresses) but I know if he is not successful they'll offer advice on what he should be doing instead and he gets the option of coming back to a few sessions later in the year so they can review their decision if he wants. The experience has been radically different compared to my DD's experiences in the dance world.

I know we are lucky to be in a good system but also to have excellent individuals locally. Junior sport is not without its problems and there are bad experiences  in all fields. But my son's experience shows it can be done. Issues with physique can be handled candidly but sensitively. It is possible to develop young people without perfect physiques and to show them alternative paths without making them feel like they have been thrown on the scrap heap. These issues can be discussed honestly without being unkind. If (at least some) sport can do it, surely ballet should be able to as well?

Well said! Thank you!

Thank you Emeralds for your post and for clarifying. Appreciated.

 You’re right that she was taken into US  not having ‘a suitable ballet body’ ( teacher’s words) ( joint issues) and bullied because of it.

She is not dancing now due to a serious injury sustained in 1st year ( due to her joint inefficiency) which may never heal and was insufficiently treated ( independently clarified by private consultants).

In all this, there was absolutely no communication from the school whatsoever until the one line negative assessment result.

I must also disagree with the idea that institutions abroad are more nurturing and encouraging. They are different, yes. After 3 months in a top European Ballet School my dd would say the body shaming  is just unbelievable. She was completely and utterly shocked. It was not directed at her but at others in her class. It seemed to be part of the curriculum and the students seemed to be pretty used to it, which is extremely sad. Having always had the best guidance on nutrition and never witnessing criticism on body shape in all 5 yrs she was at RBS, it came as a very unpleasant experience. She was, however,  treated as a mature individual by the AD, who made it his job to know all his students very well.  He asked her opinions and her gaols and helped her tremendously. A totally new experience for her after RBS, where the only couple of times she met the AD he called her the wrong name.

25 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I would hope that misunderstandings about teacher feedback could be largely avoided if students/parents are encouraged and enabled to ask for clarification if something said, or written,  is not clear. Maybe easier said than done in some cases of course.

This was the clarification Richard. 
That her body was ‘ very difficult’ for classical ballet. If you have an explanation for the clarification then do please let me know. Because personally that clarification took me 2 weeks of asking, to obtain and left us feeling extremely angry and confused. We are talking about the Royal Ballet School. She had been previously training there for three years.

16 hours ago, Emeralds said:

I’m glad your dd had a good experience, Ruby. It sounds like she was thought to be one of the “Fine” ones who never got the negative treatment the students on the Panorama and File on 4 programmes did. 

 

Unfortunately it is quite a common pattern among directors with bullying/intimidating tactics to do just that: separate his or her charges into two groups - the “good” group that according to him/her looks fine, has talent, produces the results they want, looks the way they like them to look, and an “undesirable” group who has one or more traits he/she doesn’t like: eg the “wrong” appearance, or doesn’t produce the results or kind of dancing they want, but has enough talent such that he/she can’t get rid of them just yet. With the “good group” such directors can be Dr Jekyll and sweet, supportive, perfect; behind closed doors or what they think are closed doors  they can be Mr Hyde to those they think don’t measure up. A good director or principal should be Dr Jekyll to all, and equally patient, supportive and encouraging to all- that’s what a teacher, principal or director should be in any field or any school. So if your dd was thought to have ticked all the right boxes in their opinion, that’s why she had positive treatment.  

 

You've hit the nail on the head with regard to the work of the health team - all good health teams will give proper diet and nutrition information. And I suspect that is why none of the students who were body shamed or bullied to lose weight described having a dietician or doctor in the meetings where they were body shamed- probably because the dietician and the doctor would have taken the student’s side and objected to the instruction to lose weight! In fact, one student did describe going to see the school nutritionist who said her diet was healthy....meaning there was no more scope for her to lose any more weight. And hence she should never have been told to lose weight in the first place.

 

I'm perplexed by why the schools are asking very young students to lose weight. At 12 to 15 they are not due to look for a job. Nature will take its course. Is it just so that they will look thin at the end of year school performance? I would be more worried to see so many thin lower school children in the defilé- that’s unnatural and not at all normal. 

 

There are examples of two famous ballerinas from the Mariinsky (then called the Kirov) who in their teens were a little more full figured than when they became principal dancers. Early photos of them reminded me of some of the photos of the students in the programme when the schools pronounced them “too heavy”. They didn’t get “assessed out”- I don’t know if the Vaganova School connected to the Mariinsky/Kirov ever did that- in fact they were offered jobs with the company. Who are they? - Natalia Makarova and Altynai Asylmuratova. Both legends. Imagine if they got asked to leave the school! The directors clearly saw the talent they had and were patient, and they did become more slender as they grew older (granted they weren’t overweight to begin with- neither were these students). 

 

 

Perhaps you haven’t seen my previous posts Emeralds.

My dd obviously didn’t tick any of the right boxes!

She was assessed out after a year of verbal abuse that literally crushed her.

As I said before in another post that was shut down, she cried every day that year and more than in the whole of her 17yrs. At one point the teacher in question put a line of 6 girls in 1st cast, a line of 6 girls in 2nd cast and then sniggered to my daughter that ‘ ‘oh dear, looks like you’ll need to be in 3rd cast won’t you?’ Picked up her bag and left the room. There was no 3rd cast. It was a completely unnecessary comment to undermine her already non existent confidence. She was broken that night. Not because she wasn’t good enough to be in the performance but because of the underhand nastiness, the lack of helpful communication. What help was that comment? It did not help her gain more strength/ improve her technique/ gain more artistry. What it did do was humiliate and belittle her. The teacher bullied her in every class for a whole year ( from 3rd week in Upper School) because she was frustrated that my dd was not good enough. The teacher told me she did not have a good body for Classical Ballet. Having been accepted for Upper School, this was fairly concerning.

None of this was to do with weight or physical appearance and I stand by my previous post that the messages  she was receiving regarding that subject were extremely positive. 
 
I do, however completely take your point that a ‘rogue’ teacher, ( I have described one above) who is not part of the health team and not on board with the positive policies of the School

can simply cause the worst damage imaginable with their words.

1 hour ago, Emeralds said:

Just going back to the BMI (body mass index) discussion, BMI is useless on athletes and dancers. Most full time ballet students, ie 11-18 year olds training seriously to dance as a career whether at a residential or non residential school, will be classed as underweight by a BMI chart. Those not classed as underweight because they are petite are not necessarily too heavy for ballet either. It really depends on the amount of muscle and the bone structure the dancer has. There are dancers who can look extremely thin who actually weigh more than dancers whom some directors/coaches might describe as being “too curvy” because they have more bone (which is genetically determined). The argument that a slightly heavier female dancer might be too heavy for her partner to lift is also incorrect as it’s more to do with the dancer’s technique and coordination with her partner and how much she helps with the lift. Of course, men also sometimes lift men in certain ballets/roles.

 

BMI literally just measures height and weight recorded on the scales and makes a judgement based on averages in a population. It is misleading when it comes to dancers and sportspeople at the top of their profession. Very fit, athletic and fast multiple Olympic gold medalists like Michael Phelps, Adam Peaty and Ian Thorpe would actually have been pronounced by a BMI chart as overweight at the time when they were winning gold medals! 

 

Anna C is also completely right about the changes adolescents’ bodies undergo during puberty. It is not just ill-advised to ask (let alone intimidate or bully) a child to lose weight during puberty but detrimental- and could have the exact opposite of making it harder to keep weight off in future, not to mention the increased risk of serious diseases such as heart disease. It’s of course a very different problem in very obese children and adolescents who must eat more healthily and lose weight to stay healthy, but no ballet student accepted after audition to a vocational school is even remotely obese, let alone very obese.

 

Any plan to ask a ballet student to lose weight should only be undertaken after discussion with a paediatrician and a paediatric dietician. It’s shocking to hear the stories the youngsters on the Panorama programme and File on 4 have told. Not just the bullying, but the amateur, unscientific  and frankly dangerous dieting instructions being doled out. 

 

I feel like the level of ignorance from the school staff (about health and the human body) is back to the 12th century when people still thought the Sun revolved around the Earth, and attitudes to children and ballet students were like the 1800s - “You are all children of the Tsar’s serfs, so you’re very lucky to be living here... you’ll do whatever we tell you to, and if we say skip meals you will do just that”. 

Although I’ve been super critical of certain aspects of the experience at one of the mentioned schools, I do want to make the point that as regards the messages coming from the health team surrounding diet and nutrition, it was extremely positive and helpful. My dd was super well informed as a result, and this information will serve her well in the future I’m sure. 
It was the subliminal messages regarding assessments, the intense pressure accompanying those assessment’s and the results of the assessments that led her to make her own conclusions about what was desirable. At no time was she ever body shamed or witnessed it happening to others  although obviously that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.

18 minutes ago, capybara said:

Exactly, especially that last sentence.

Maybe the subject of coaching dancers merits a thread of its own? I think I’ve been guilty of ‘going down a branch line’.

It may be a branch line but these connections all contribute to a healthy mind, a healthy dancer and a much stronger and exciting future for Ballet.

9 hours ago, capybara said:

 

I do so agree with this. I don't think that I'm alone in having seen established artists in more than one Company treated by repetiteurs/teachers as if they were inexperienced students. Completely unacceptable and disrespectful at a personal level - the more so since, at worst, it can amount to artistic repression.

 

However, there are promising signs that a 'new generation' of coaches is more focused on helping dancers to evolve their own interpretations. Of course, the choreography needs to be delivered 'correctly' but why any Principal or Soloist should be expected to put up with (surely outdated) authoritarian approaches to developing a role is beyond my understanding.

 

I find it quite inspiring that dancers can still find their own artistic expression after the repressive training they receive.

At no point during my dd’s training was she ever treated as an individual with her own mind or personality. Never considered or consulted on her training or asked for any input or feedback. There was certainly no collaboration or endeavour to treat her as a developing person with her own creative ideas. 
There was a choreography competition which could be used to self express and be creative, but as far as the school training was concerned, the word  ‘machines’ comes to mind.

49 minutes ago, windover60 said:

 

Im aware that there have now been many responses on here to Panorama and BBC sounds but felt compelled to add my contribution having been deeply moved but not surprised by both programmes. Its taken a while to formulate my response to make it acceptable ! My DD left WL in 2015 and experienced many of the issues that other members are expressing. First of all I must stress that in my opinion neither programme was sensationalist – the young people taking part have been so brave and I feel for every one of them and their parents. Several were in my daughter’s cohort or nearby years and sadly I have to say that their names and situations could have been substituted by many more, my dd included. It is testament to this forum that so many others have come forward to prove that these are not isolated cases. I can only speak for our position when I say that ‘emotional abuse’ is difficult to prove and quantify, particularly when you are 11 and it is perceived to be part of the system. For my dd, it was not an eating disorder but emotional abuse about her body image ‘her ugly legs’ were often referred to by the teacher to shame her in class and then as she was beaten down over the years, it was ‘you are not trying’ or as was said to us in parents meeting ‘shes lost the fire in her belly’. We had no idea how bad things were until afterwards as much was kept amongst the students for fear of being assessed out. My dd did not want us to complain and we abided by her wish to avoid further upset and bullying. Those students/parents who were ‘favourites’ must have witnessed this happening to others and aware of  the eating disorders, emotional abuse and self harm that was occurring even though they could honestly say they had only had positive experiences. Like others, I could give many more examples. After leaving, my dd was not able to attend school for two terms, needed professional psychological support and medication for several years, and has ongoing issues with her mental health. However, she is now much more like her former self, is about to complete her third year at University and is enjoying dance again as recreation. Her experience at Rbs has taken its toll on all of us, but finally feels like a distant memory. 

I also just wanted to respond to a few other points that have been mentioned. 

We did contact the LADDO/Westminster safeguarding when this was raised as a possibility. My dd was told they were not investigating historical cases as needed concrete evidence of dates and times. Obviously this is not possible several years down the line. She was interviewed by itv a few years ago about bullying in ballet schools, she also wrote an article for The Sunday Times and Guardian after this, but nothing came of either project and we are not sure why. This in itself was distressing as it  is harrowing to retell your experiences. She has not been able to watch or listen to either programme as the synopsis induced panic attacks and she does not want to relive it anymore. 

After my dd left we did write to the rbs governors/trustees as one of the issues of my dds final assessment was that she was not scored. As my husband and I worked in education where assessments have to be evidenced robustly, we questioned this. We were told that this was as she was recovering from injury and they knew she would fail. The AD said they could reassess but the outcome would be the same ie assessed out. Other injured pupils were scored so we brought the assessment procedure up with the governors. We heard nothing and a follow up phone call did not shed any light on the matter. In my opinion this is another example of rbs bullying and being untouchable. A mainstream school would not be able to do this (on another note the independent inspections are not robust and pupils are carefully chosen to speak to inspectors etc) I hope there are now robust assessment criteria in place.

Finally, the whistleblowing phone line has been set up by rbs and although has ‘independent experts’ manning the lines, it is not clear whether the school is monitoring it also. I may be cynical, but this may be a way of complaints ‘disappearing’ rather than being published for public view. Too little too late in my opinion. I would urge people to also send written copies to Mark Daly and other places ( I need to look back to see what these are )mentioned on the forum to ensure they remain accountable. Sorry for the long post !

While I find myself in disbelief at the ‘no marks at the assessment’ part, there is also no surprise. Other pupils who were injured were given a mark but not your dd? Was she wearing an invisibility cloak while she was there?
 

When you enquire to see what’s going on, no one can be bothered to get back to you…..

This is the kind of arrogance I have witnessed in some politicians over the years. 
 

Making up your own rules, answering to nobody.

Thank you for posting as with everyone else’s posts. I can empathise with most. It is not easy, any of it

4 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

I second this. There is diversity and an energy within this school that we haven’t experienced anywhere else.

I apologise to those who haven’t had this experience at this establishment 

24 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:

My child was at Tring (she has since left for reasons not to do with the school). They ate very well there in our experience: lots of filling meals and snacks available (and eaten). Sunday brunch for example was a big highlight. One thing we liked about the school which the RBS and Elmhurst lack, is its diversity: the dancers there mingle with children on the acting course and so are used to seeing people with much more varied body sizes and shapes than when only ballet dancers are present.  

I second this. There is diversity and an energy within this school that we haven’t experienced anywhere else.

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

A great post En Avant - thank you!

it also got me thinking about teacher training & maybe it’s time the training bodies look to see if their fast track training of former professional dancers is perhaps not in anyones best interests anymore. How can a course that’s only perhaps six weeks or mostly distance learning replace the more intense 3-5 years? 
No wonder so many former pro dancers now teachers lean on their own historical experience & seem to in many cases replicate the training they themselves had. And so an unhappy legacy persists….

Just to add…. Some former pro dancers are excellent, safe, current & nurturing in their teaching practises - even sone deity no formal dance qualifications. I do think that we cannot assume a great dancer always will make a great teacher…. 
How many of us would consider ourselves to be a great driver but wouid recoil at the responsibility a driving instructor takes on….

 

 
Thanks Peanut for making the point far more lucidly than me!

Lots of teachers out there who were ex-dancers may love ballet, but don’t love teaching. That’s where things can go wrong. If you genuinely love teaching, as I do, seeing a child bring their best into each class and develop as a person is the most rewarding thing. Unfortunately, some people just don’t see that. 
 
Thank you. Yes. Never a truer word. While the teachers in these institutions have all been through teacher training, they are also a product/ pro dancers of the SAME institution. This is precisely why they are taken on - to preserve the traditions and style of that institution. From my daughter’s experience there are some truly wonderful, wonderful teachers in that institution,( I cannot stress this enough) but there are also some who are not- who do not practice healthy teaching practice as we now know it in the contemporary ballet world. They are still ‘professional dancers’ but now teaching and are not the ‘best’ teachers out there by a long way.

There are also professional ballet dancers who teach without any teaching qualifications, something which should not be happening. While they may have so much to offer, they may also use dangerous practices.

My daughter was asked to do fouettés en pointe by a famous pro dancer having never done them and was definitely not ready to try. She had only done a little pointe work at the time. As we all know that would have needed months of preparation at the barre and strengthening exercises etc. 

When she told the dancer she’d never done them she was asked to ‘just try one or 2’. The dancer had not asked how much pointe work the class had done or offered any alternatives. Dangerous practices.

1 hour ago, BalletP said:

Having watched the panorama programme and reading through all of this thread I do find myself wondering exactly what the consensus is here that people want. I see hints of it but there seems to be a clash of what the realities of what the industry actually needs and the idealism of how the educational experience should actually be.

 

I don’t think that the shapes of dancers we have today have arrived by chance ,its just been borne out by the needs of the profession itself to fulfill what’s asked of them.

 

Dancers are fighting against  gravity ,what's aesthetically is pleasing to the audience (which is made without prejudice) and the needs of their own and potential partners physical strength to dance to the required standard.

 

The very fact they are sometimes using coded language appeared to me they are trying to communicate realities in some cases as nicely as possible.

 

Please don’t misunderstand me and to be clear NO abuse of a child is acceptable. Creating eating disorders also NOT acceptable.

 

But

 

How do you all want institutions to handle this ?  do you not or do you not want them to . It seems like some points of view ,are that weight just can not be mentioned.

 

So should RBS, Elmhurst just carry on taking money ( accepting it from funding or a parent) from someone that they know will not go further in the industry than the school due to physical attributes? . Then set the child up for an even bigger fall at the end and also the parent  having invested a considerable amount in fees that would have been better spent elsewhere. All due to the fact they were not allowed to speak about physicality and the needs of the industry that are hard baked into the industry by gravity,  aesthetics and strength.

 

I find myself thinking that there needs to be overhaul of communication with parents and child prior to the child joining the vocational school with regards to the needs of the industry and why those needs are as they are.

 

So that if they do need to come and talk to the parents about this issue its not going to cause a huge problems as it has.

 

 

 

No bullying/abuse should be allowed by ANY teacher though, if its happening that has to change.

 

 

 

As a parent of a child at vocational school I’m now worried they are going to be frightened through fear of potential backlash of telling me the truth

 

on my child’s potential prospects due to their physical attributes.

 

 

 

I find that very concerning because that vocational money may well have better spent following another path .

 

 

 

Hiding from realities till they hit employment age and letting them find out for themselves is not a solution either IMHO.

 

 

 

So I’d like to know what all those who have been affected by the issues brought up in the panorama programme would have found as parents an acceptable and fair conversation to have on this issue in their end of year appraisal for example.

 

 

 

As I don’t think asking a school/teacher to no longer speak about the needed requirements of the industry and just carry on taking my money is a good solution in any way.

 

 

 

Hopefully all of this has come across with intended sentiment , as I’m not in anyway out to offend any posters on this thread. I’m just seeing more a cry for change without solutions . Which feels like another form of cancel culture

 

(a thread elsewhere here has been made asking whether or not we should support these institutions anymore for example) rather than accepting this is a very nuanced conversation that really would be best served with better communication and understanding all round. (parents and school)

 

 

 

The bullying in class that some of those dancers received in the programme due to this lack of communication is obviously not the solution. Are

 

the teachers doing this as they don’t have any other what are deemed to be none offensive tools to tackle this issue ? what would those ideal none offensive conversations be like ?

 

 

 

Ultimately these institutions are not setting out to destroy our children and it would seem to be struggling to navigate the parent child relationship

 

without causing issues.

 

None of what happens negatively in vocational schools needs to happen. 

If the AD/ Principal and teachers worked collaboratively with the students and stopped treating them as commodities which, when no longer needed or useful or become a problem, abandon or abuse them. The key -mutual respect for each other. This means time. Time for dialogue, time for communication, time to forge relationships and time to build trust. Time to actually know your pupils as individuals. Only then, can you work out what they need, what are their gaols, who are they? and how best to teach them. It’s not rocket science. This is not about what goes on in the studio. It’s about what goes on in peoples heads. If students truly believed that teachers cared for them and ultimately strived for the very best in pursuit of their happiness and dreams then there would be less injury, less self harm, more joy and productivity. The classes are small 13?15? How can you not know your own students as individuals? 

There needs to be a clear contract between the 2 parties where schools make a promise to the student to support, nurture and bring out their full potential. This may be there in theory but it is NOT HAPPENING IN PRACTICE except for the very small minority. 

And when it doesn’t happen, schools must be accountable. They must. They must now be accountable for their failure every and each time it happens. Every child (not just the 2 per cent super talented) is worth the time and trouble. Every child, even if difficulties arise along the way ( we know and expect they will) should be treated with respect. 
My daughter was assessed out at 18yrs.  There was no communication whatsoever regarding gently redirecting her dance training into something more suitable. They did not know her as a person at all and had no idea what she might have liked to use all her training for. They’d never bothered. They probably already knew from the beginning she wasn’t worth the effort in their eyes. This was certainly borne out by the vicious teacher’s abusive behaviour in Upper School. In fact, my dd said later - I don’t think the AD knew my name until the Assessment. She was being truthful. She’d been there since yr 9 (5yrs) and on the couple of occasions she’d met him, he’d called her the wrong name. 

51 minutes ago, StephanieM said:

As a parent with a child whose dream is to be a ballerina I follow this forum (along with others) and anything else I can find to educate myself as much as possible about the industry. It is my job as a parent to make sure that what I do is in the best interests of my child. I know my daughter best which means that I (and not a school or teacher) have a better idea of how much dedication, drive and resilience she has and whether it may be enough to enter an elite field. I also have the best idea of her mental and emotional maturity. I am also best placed to asses how her body will (more than likely) develop during puberty based on that of my family and my husbands family. Family genes! Parents can definitely get a better idea of likely outcomes than a school or teacher ever could at an audition. 

 

Railing against the institutions and

saying “but things should be different” changes nothing. This will be an unpopular opinion but it needs to be said - it all ultimately starts and ends with the parents. It is the job of the parents to manage a child’s expectations as to what is realistic and achievable for that child. It seems in far too many cases that it is the parents dream for the child (their own vicarious dream) that is being enabled. My child has been dancing since she was 4. She is now 9 and doesn’t even realise/understand that vocational schools exist and what that actually means. A child isn’t born with the dream of going to vocational school. They were sold that dream along the way. The only way a child can know of what is possible is if these aspirations were fostered by others - be it parents or dance teachers or friends etc. It is ultimately a parent’s job to step in and manage expectations. If you don’t want a dance teacher indicating in code that your child’s physical attributes may not be suitable to ballet, do it yourself!! You can only fight family genes so far, ultimately, and it sounds much better coming from a parent!

 

As an outsider with no ballet knowledge whatsoever, it is extremely obvious to me what a ballet physique is likely to entail and that it is rare in the general population. There is absolutely nothing wrong with explaining to your child as they develop that their physique is perfect in every way but just may not necessarily be suited to ballet - in the same way their body won’t necessarily be suited to any other elite sport. Whether that is fair or unfair is not a helpful discussion. It is the reality at this time and that information should be discussed openly and lovingly by a parent with their child. If a teacher criticised my child’s physique, I would remind her of our discussion and explain again she is perfect in every way but just maybe not for ballet (like many, many others) and that we knew this time may come. There are so many other fulfilling careers in the industry and not everyone can be a ballerina no matter how badly we may want to be one. 

 

Body dysmorphia and poor diet is a huge problem for many children of all ages today - whether they are dancers or not - and it is our job as parents to instil appropriate values and eating habits from the day they are born so that they are not at the mercy of what the outside world throws at them like a leaf in a storm. We need to do better. A child arriving at a vocational school already with body issues or not having it explained to them in advance by their parents (in a loving and sensitive way) that they may look significantly different as they go through puberty (through no fault of their own) and hence ballet may not necessarily be a career for them, is a recipe for disaster. It is likely that many children will feel that they (or their bodies) are letting their parents down….the very parents who have worked so hard, sacrificed so much and supported them to get in. Letting down your parents (in reality or thinking you have done so) is a huge burden for a child to carry. 

 

If you are not able to develop your child’s self confidence, self worth, resilience and understanding of what the rigours of elite training will entail in an honest and realistic manner (ie having some difficult discussions based on the Panorama documentary as well as the many anecdotes on this forum) perhaps life at a vocational school may not be a suitable option for your child. 

 
Some of the words sent in a text message at the time of the abuse

crushed

beat down

lost her way

lost herself 

massively set back in every way.

They describe perfectly what was happening before our eyes.

My daughter had a perfect physical  (proportions) attributes  and was as confident as they come. In her first vocational school she was very happy and she thrived. Parents and children shouldn’t be blamed for the abuse of teachers who are there to nurture them and help them realise their potential.

58 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Whilst tending to be pretty slim and muscular due to the demands of their chosen careers, ladies in the top UK ballet companies, at least,  are certainly not all “stick-thin”, skeletal or flat-chested etc. Some take time out to have babies and then return to the stage.  When dancing they need to be very  careful of nutrition, which means eating enough of the correct foods, not just eating as little as possible because that would mean lacking sufficient strength and energy to perform.   Some students may need to lose a bit of weight; others may need to improve their diet or increase  their intake of some foods-  either way  this should be explained sensitively;  indeed the schools have specialist nutritionists for this.  This is the RBS's very detailed Nutrition Policy: https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Nutrition-Policy.pdf

which includes for example: “It is known that, along with many athletes, dancers are at greater risk of developing eating disorders and associated medical problems than the general population. Body composition is also an important component of physical fitness, vital in enabling dancers to train and reach their true potential. Dancers who fall above or below the recommended norms may be putting their health at risk as well as limiting their career”.

And: “A person with an eating disorder commonly has fears about being ‘fat’ and fears about their shape: the mind of an anorexic shows them as ‘fat’ when they look in the mirror when others see them as a virtual skeleton. They usually believe that the more weight they lose the closer they come to being worthwhile. If challenged, they deny that they have a problem and refuse to believe they are dangerously thin. They are unable to accept rational argument around their eating habits and weight”.

“Any single symptom could have an explanation, but recurring patterns are a cause for concern. Members of staff should always report concerns to the Director or the Ballet Principal. Individual members of staff should not discuss questions of weight, diet or medication with students, nor should there be general discussion of any issues related to this protocol”.

So I don’t understand the reports of some teachers  suggesting, or implying, in their remarks to students,  that excessive weight loss is the way certain students will improve as dancers, or be able to have a ballet career, such that those students feel they must keep on losing weight to a dangerous and  unacceptable  extent. Any such remark goes entirely against all that is set out in the above Policy, and the obvious facts in terms of the actual body shapes of dancers who do make it professionally.  It is unfortunate, therefore, that  the programme did not include any interviews with teachers or school nutritionists in response or in further explanation. The schools (at least as reported) only seem to have put out what came across as fairly generalised  and bland statements, without  being able (understandably I suppose, especially with a legal case pending) to respond to the various individual  cases.

However the RBS had an Ofsted report in 2014 https://files.ofsted.gov.uk/v1/file/2433869

The identified  concern at that time was proper checking and monitoring of staff recruitment and vetting, which was falling short. (This appears to have been addressed by 2016 according to the published report from a later unannounced visit  by the Independent Schools Inspectorate). Otherwise the report appears positive, and in terms of the issues most immediately relevant to the current discussion, Ofsted reported for example:

“The school’s behaviour policy is implemented consistently and fairly. All students behave impeccably. Behaviour and relationships between students and with staff are excellent. Case studies of the most vulnerable students show the school’s sensitive yet robust approach to students’ emotional needs. Weekly network meetings between health professionals and staff carefully coordinate agreed support and care for identified students”.

“An effective anti-bullying policy is in place. Awareness of bullying in all its forms is a high priority through the curriculum, students’ weekly house meetings and the student council. The new leadership team ensure that, in this high-intensity training environment, staff are well briefed about teaching classes designed to really push students yet maintain a balance of criticism and support. Students say teachers rightly expect and insist on the highest standards of performance and commitment, as befits a school of this nature. However students also feel well supported and respected. No bullying by staff was reported to inspectors”.

More up to date (Oct 2022) is the following very positive report from the Independent Schools Inspectorate, a link to which can be found here: https://www.isi.net/school/the-royal-ballet-school-7171

This includes for example:

“Pupils exhibit a very strong awareness of the importance of physical and mental wellbeing. They describe the importance of balancing rigorous physical demands, being physically strong and mentally agile, with the need for good nutritional balance. They know the actions they must take to be healthy, as well as decisions that may cause them harm. Pupils appreciate the support they receive on diet and nutrition, mental health, dealing with injuries and rehabilitation through regular weekly meetings with a specialist team of health professionals….”.

“An overwhelming majority of parents and pupils who responded to the questionnaire  conveyed the view that the school is a safe place to be and that is safeguards the children effectively”.

Similarly Elmhurst had an “outstanding” Ofsted report in 2015: https://files.ofsted.gov.uk/v1/file/2527673 

and the ISI gave them an excellent report in  February2022     https://www.elmhurstballetschool.org/media/downloads/elmhursteqiisireportfebruary2022.pdf

In the effective absence in the programme, of “the other side of the story” in the sort of detail  suggested by these inspection reports, I am wondering how balanced the BBC have been here.

I am very interested to read this report and to contrast it with my dd’s experience. I am also curious to understand how this could possibly satisfy some as to being the whole truth.
My dc was at one of the 2 schools discussed on the program until last year.

My DC was a diligent, thoughtful and compliant student. Reports from the school suggest as much. Under no circumstances would my dc have EVER reported bullying, abuse or any negative behaviour from teachers, the houseparents or the school in general whether it was completely confidential or not. The clue is in the ‘all students behave impeccably’. Of course they do, because each and everyone would do ANYTHING to remain in the school, to go to upper school and to be accepted to the Company. And I do mean ANYTHING, such is their mindset. In the early days they may not even have been aware of some of the very subtle abuse taking place such is the nature of a’Ballet class’

There is much in the report that my dc would uphold as being practiced such as the very positive messages about nutrition, physical health and well being. Those messages certainly got through to my dc and we applaud those messages which my dc found extremely helpful throughout her training.

However, this is where one has to be there to understand how complex the system is and how a report, no matter it’s good intentions, will not give a true picture.

We moved house twice so my dc would be able to be a day girl at both vocational schools she attended. This was done to safeguard her physical and mental health. She would be able to come straight home and communicate how her day had been and we would be able to listen, provide healthy nutrition and home comfort. If there were any issues we vowed to deal with them immediately. During lockdown, my dc was made to board at WL.  This coincided with her application and audition to Upper School something she wanted more than anything in the world. In her mind she needed to do 3 things - be technically perfect and strong, be artistically beautiful and be physically suitable. She was already physically ( in terms of proportions) perfect. But she was not stupid. She saw her friends be assessed out in yr 9 and drew conclusions from that and from those who had been accepted for upper school previously. In her mindset she was not good enough. She worked herself to the bone… literally. I did not see her. She was boarding now at school and unable to come home. When I finally saw her I was horrified. She had lost a massive amount of weight in such a short time. I called the school. They had not noticed despite seeing her in leotard and tights every day. The nurse was very concerned. My dd did not have a period after this for nearly 2 years. They immediately told her she must sit out of dance in front of her whole class. It was humiliating for her. They did not call me or tell me what the situation was or how we were going to deal with it. There was absolutely no communication whatsoever. I had to call them. The insensitivity was astounding and added to the mental stress she obviously already felt. 
My dc would not want me to tell you this or to report any negative behaviour by the school but I’m going ahead to beg you how to look beyond a report.

I would also query the statement ‘behaviour and relationships between pupils and with staff are excellent’

From our experience, students are very quiet and careful to always do the right thing because that is the code they understand. The AD is a distant and revered figure who appears very little, if at all, and there is certainly no opportunity to build a relationship with them.

18 minutes ago, littledancer99 said:

As a parent of a year 6 dancer I am so sad that this still goes on in some of the best ballet schools in the U.K.

I feel like veering her away from ballet entirely after watching this 

 

can a child ever make it in ballet without being abused 🤦‍♀️

 

 

My dc was at another vocational school beforehand and was extremely happy. Others may have been having a thoroughly miserable time but she did not witness it. This is why it is so difficult to pin down. Because while let’s say 10 students in the class are having the experience they realistically hoped for,

3 students might be going through hell.