Ruby Foo

I think an attitude of ‘ I’ve no idea how to sing but I’m going to give it my very best shot’ and performing with a sense of fearlessness and confidence counts for a lot. It probably counts for more than having a magnificent voice because having a fearless and ‘ I’m happy to come out of my comfort zone once in a while’ is a wonderful transferable trait that is immensely helpful in the dance world where adapting to new styles, choreography, ideas, teaching styles is all important. 

7 hours ago, Graceful said:

https://www.roehampton.ac.uk/undergraduate-courses/dance/?gclid=CjwKCAjw69moBhBgEiwAUFCx2HYqOUGLn8eMiaQZu60EkG7ggQx1ZG1mJQH_Xq5R-3XsEIhvHs1qoBoCoIQQAvD_BwE
 

Apparently it’s this university that you do the degree through at Royal and you can finish it with them. 
 

Also I was told that Elmhurst give you the opportunity to finish your degree through distance learning so maybe you can do that with Roehampton? 

I’m afraid that is not true. The degree is through Roehampton but it’s unique to RBS.

In third year, much of the work is done in the studio and therefore you cannot finish it anywhere but RBS.

This is what we we’re told by RBS

2 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

2 points stand out to me from this thread 

Firstly the issues that cause / have caused distress, both in the immediate and long term are often not always obvious to students or parents whether they are in training or working towards it.

 

For example- imagine if a student was told  ‘you can participate in these classes but the teacher will not be looking at you or correcting you. Do you still want to participate ( and pay) for this class?’

Or ‘ You have been accepted to US but you don’t have a good body for the course. Do you still want to accept?’

Or ‘ You look physically this way but the teacher would prefer if you look physically different. Are you willing to change’?

Put this way, the issues are no longer hidden and the student has a choice. But the issues ARE hidden and no student or parent can possibly know what will be revealed as the training continues, when or to whom.

Secondly, the issues described here, which are students experiences of the schools discussed in the Panorama program, stretch over many decades. Back to 1980.’s I think. Perhaps even further back. I find it extremely worrying that the very same issues are being raised again and again right up to the present day.

Schools have definitely improved in some areas over this time, that’s for sure and yet these issues that leave a debilitating impact on students ( and families) are still as prevalent as ever. What conclusions can we draw from this? That the tradition of Ballet Culture ( taking in all that means including companies / international traditions) can’t adapt enough to fully protect children? Or is it simply not willing to ? Protecting pure Classical Ballet ( and weirdly the fashions of physique that surround it) may deem more important.

 

I also want to mention how important this thread is. There are many threads on this forum that offer amazing, positive and useful advice. We have used it for years and years and grateful thanks to the moderators for making it all happen.

The issues on this thread are equally important if not more and have been hidden for years due to legal reasons.

 Now we can finally discuss what has been going on behind closed doors.

2 points stand out to me from this thread 

Firstly the issues that cause / have caused distress, both in the immediate and long term are often not always obvious to students or parents whether they are in training or working towards it.

For example- imagine if a student was told  ‘you can participate in these classes but the teacher will not be looking at you or correcting you. Do you still want to participate ( and pay) for this class?’

Or ‘ You have been accepted to US but you don’t have a good body for the course. Do you still want to accept?’

Or ‘ You look physically this way but the teacher would prefer if you look physically different. Are you willing to change’?

Put this way, the issues are no longer hidden and the student has a choice. But the issues ARE hidden and no student or parent can possibly know what will be revealed as the training continues, when or to whom.

Secondly, the issues described here, which are students experiences of the schools discussed in the Panorama program, stretch over many decades. Back to 1980.’s I think. Perhaps even further back. I find it extremely worrying that the very same issues are being raised again and again right up to the present day.

Schools have definitely improved in some areas over this time, that’s for sure and yet these issues that leave a debilitating impact on students ( and families) are still as prevalent as ever. What conclusions can we draw from this? That the tradition of Ballet Culture ( taking in all that means including companies / international traditions) can’t adapt enough to fully protect children? Or is it simply not willing to ? Protecting pure Classical Ballet ( and weirdly the fashions of physique that surround it) may deem more important.

6 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

Thank you for sharing this Peanut. I can empathise and know these issues don’t just disappear when you leave the school or the world of ballet. They are with you  in some context for a lifetime.

My Dd thought it was completely normal that a teacher never looked or corrected her in class. It was only when I asked her how she liked that certain teacher that she said ‘ oh that teacher never looks or corrects anyone except ? and ? , it’s the same every week. ‘ The rest of us know to work for ourselves in her class on things that we know need to be better because she doesn’t even give us a glance.

The quiet kind of abuse that the students accept as part of the course.

4 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out. For someone joining vocational for the  first time it might be easier at least psychologically to switch because their whole identity isn’t wrapped around being a dancer.
 

My DD is thrilled to be finally at upper school and able to specialise in what she’s interested in and in a broader sense, theatre. I can see her in other related areas if the ballet career doesn’t happen. My son is training as a musician (singer) , he’s 18, and if he doesn’t make it as a performer he too is likely to be in the performing arts. I don’t see their situations being that different to one another or her being worse off than he is. 

This is not true for us. My dd had a relatively happy time at WL. Just like your Dd she was completely made up to be in Upper School. It was a huge honour and she was determined to work her butt off.

Sadly, as she is injured now and has been advised not to dance any more she will need to do A levels in order that she can use her training to help others in theirs. That is her wish. Not being able to move limits the relatable areas she might have otherwise leaned towards.

Hopefully, discussing these issues helps others in the future.

26 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

I know there is a lot of discussion on A levels and top ups and it is true that is you do not make it to graduation year (this is a very small number of students) they are sometimes offered to retake a year as an option. Those that do leave generally find places on other graduating years in other dance schools so it isnt like they drop out of ballet completely unless they chose to. Most normally carry on their dance careers elsewhere and find new dreams in other companies.

 

Also alongside the degree course the students must also take other academic studies which can include A Levels and any other courses available (whether they have the time or not is another question). They are also mentored with careers advice as to what they would do if things didnt go as planned, injuries cut a career short or just general advice what the training they have had can l lead them into in future

 

I do find some of the comments make some very big assumptions without actually knowing what is on offer and what alternatives there are should plans change. Yes the Panorama program has highlighted some failures in the system but to many in the system its light years ahead of a state school in support and opportunities

They can choose to one A level online. 
There are very few options on which A levels they can choose. 
 

There was absolutely NO discussion at any point in year 1 or 2 about what their  plan B might be or what their training might lead to in the future 
 

I’m not sure where your Dd trains but certainly in my dd’s experience were too tired to trail to the corner shop in the evenings let alone socialise. Any socialising at weekends was mainly done with their friends within the school and the occasional trip once a year to a theme park. 
 

Given that most of Saturday was given up to classes , there’s not a lot of time or energy to trail around London.

And I am merely discussing our own experience at one particular school discussed on the Panorama programme.

17 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 
Another important element is the distance you feel from the ‘ ordinary ‘ world. If you’ve been training at a vocational school from 11 then that world is pretty much the only world you know. Training at the top level is no small deal. You have lived, breathed, talked and ate ballet for years and years. You have in fact become it. That, in fact, is the purpose of RBS not allowing day students at US. To make ballet their complete and utter focus. To shut out any possible distractions. We asked for a day student request and were refused on that premise.
This is where I feel ballet and football are very different. A very large percentage of the population can talk about some elements of football. Ballet, on the other hand is a very niche market.  Surprisingly, that lack of any decent knowledge about Ballet hasn’t really changed despite the internet. Chat to someone on the bus and say you are training as a Ballet Dancer and you will be met with either complete blankness or the opposite - a completely false understanding of what that means. It’s often a good laugh but not when you are grieving for  a good 6/7 years of your life and need to  express that to someone. Even counsellors find it difficult to get their heads round what has actually been going on those very important developmental years of your life. Childhood in fact. 

 

oh, and dreamed it… all those variations over and over…

1 hour ago, Anna C said:

Absolutely.  In addition to “possibly traumatised”, you can add any or all of these:  depression, anxiety, loss of confidence, loss of any remaining self-esteem, body dysmorphia and/or eating disorders, physical injuries, and grief for a life/career they will now no longer have.  Plus the (sometimes temporary) loss of the love of dance itself.  
 

It’s heartbreaking.
 

 

 
Another important element is the distance you feel from the ‘ ordinary ‘ world. If you’ve been training at a vocational school from 11 then that world is pretty much the only world you know. Training at the top level is no small deal. You have lived, breathed, talked and ate ballet for years and years. You have in fact become it. That, in fact, is the purpose of RBS not allowing day students at US. To make ballet their complete and utter focus. To shut out any possible distractions. We asked for a day student request and were refused on that premise.
This is where I feel ballet and football are very different. A very large percentage of the population can talk about some elements of football. Ballet, on the other hand is a very niche market.  Surprisingly, that lack of any decent knowledge about Ballet hasn’t really changed despite the internet. Chat to someone on the bus and say you are training as a Ballet Dancer and you will be met with either complete blankness or the opposite - a completely false understanding of what that means. It’s often a good laugh but not when you are grieving for  a good 6/7 years of your life and need to  express that to someone. Even counsellors find it difficult to get their heads round what has actually been going on those very important developmental years of your life. Childhood in fact. 

34 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

It is indeed such a gamble and even with it being so, and I suspect even with all the discussion surrounding the Panorama show, I highly doubt the school’s/schools’ application numbers would experience a dip. Already I know of lots of young dancers and parents busily preparing to meet the application deadline this year - booking photo shoots, privates, additional classes and physio sessions, etc. The number of those who turned down year 7 places this year surprised me, if I’m not mistaken, it’s much higher than previous years. I do wonder if this was just a blip though and despite all this talk I really doubt it will make much of a difference once offers come out. I have spoken to so many parents who used to be quite vocal about not wanting to send their children at such a young age to board and/or parents who don’t want to send their children to so and so school as they’ve heard it’s quite an intense/stressful environment and yet once they receive an offer…it’s a hard one to resist I guess. I’ve also spoken to many parents who have heard of these things, are critical of the school, and yet year after year they would still apply. A big name is hard to resist. On the surface, it appears to be the best way to get to an ambition or dream despite all such talk as “all roads lead to Rome”.

I’m sure there will be parents out there right now who see the bad publicity as  even more incentive to try for a place and have a better chance, such is this strange world of Ballet. We were warned by several people in the know just what the risks from drinking from that chalice would mean and went ahead anyway. We believed things had improved since the old days. Sadly, they hadn’t.

7 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Absolutely, this. The best programmes in the most reputable universities would need 3 A levels, with grade requirements and at least one required subject out of the 3. If you don’t have these, you would likely need to wait another year to take them as you have to wait for the next sitting and admissions cycle. Not all universities would accept certificates in lieu of A levels, and not all would have contextual admissions or alternative offers. Even those who offer contextual admissions limit it to applicants who come from backgrounds that make them historically or normally less likely to pursue higher education, particularly to that specific university. 

 

Exactly. And the later you are assessed out the longer it will take you to catch up. 

49 minutes ago, Ondine said:

The academic qualifications issue is a difficult one.

 

I assume White Lodge  'assesses out' at the end of year nine in order that those students it doesn't see as benefitting from the ballet training there for whatever reason can move elsewhere for the two years leading up to GCSEs, that could be another vocational school or it could be mainstream education. Of course there are the obvious problems with this, including the effects of the shock to the young person being told to leave. Loss of hopes and dreams, loss of self esteem, loss of friendships, trying to find a place and settle in a new school, maybe a local day school which will be strange after boarding, none of those things will be easy to deal with.  When ballet has been a huge part of your life for years, the sense of grief must be enormous. However, it's also obvious in those circumstances they can't remain, especially if state funding is involved.   No simple answers.

 

At the end of the White Lodge years, it's clear I think to all that moving to Upper School isn't these days a given and that's a whole new process of applying for other places at other vocational schools, or leaving dance training altogether to do A levels in mainstream / non vocational education.

 

Upper School I presume it's made clear at that point that a third, graduate year isn't guaranteed.  However, that leaves those students asked to leave in academic limbo. 

 

https://www.royalballetschool.org.uk/discover/academic-boarding/life-at-upper-school/degree-course-classical-ballet-and-dance-performance/

 

 

Students who successfully complete the required number of credits in Years 1 and 2 but who do not progress to Year 3 will be awarded a foundation degree certificate and will be able to apply to Higher Education institutions to ‘top-up’ to a full degree. Students who successfully complete all three years of study will be awarded a BA Degree.

 

It sounds simple, in reality I suspect it isn't!

 

It's all such a gamble.

 

If you want to go to University to study physiotherapy or law for example, you will need get A levels. And a good set at that!

1 hour ago, Graceful said:

I think you’ve had a very positive experience of regular school! I have heard horrendous things happen in regular schools and you’re shut down by the school closing ranks immediately. (I also had a terrible time at regular school and I was given absolutely no support and nothing happened to the school or staff).

My own dc was verbally and physically abused by teaching assistants and a deputy head at regular primary school and nothing was done. The school closed ranks. 

 
I’m very sorry to hear this and others that have experienced similar in regular schools.

It appears we were lucky in that regard. 
Much harder to bring the abusers to justice without witnesses. And those often not willing to speak out. 

4 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

 

 

Just to add, through my non dancing kid’s education, they had a huge variety of different teachers through the academic day. Not the same teacher for class every day for a whole year or even two. If my dd could have had a different perspective from a different teacher once in a while, it might have been a more balanced and wholly different outcome.

59 minutes ago, Baker45 said:

All I can add to the mix for those yet to start their dance journey is that mine is in the system and has been for several years. They said they didn't recognise the allegations personally (that doesn't mean they don't happen) and her time has been overall a happy and enjoyable one.

 

Sure at aged 11 and still now they had some ropey times, home sickness, the feeling they weren't doing so well and feedback about improvements. Having to hear on the phone about things that were upsetting them obviously worried us but they were normally sorted out but to be honest the cause of most the grief were other students 

 

Mine also wouldn't say boo to a goose and that lasted a few years until they found their feet. There were teachers they liked and some they didnt. When some boys and girls were assessed out of course you would ask about them and it would either be a surprise or more often that not it wouldn't. New students that came in were to a large extent better dancers if you asked about them

 

Would I have done something different. No, if that's were they wanted to be to try to become a dancer then I'll support them in anything they do. The local comprehensive for my other kids was challenging on a completely different level to anything at WL. I wouldn't want to be a kid again in normal school. Imagine what a panorama program would think about the general schooling system.....

 

 

Whilst respecting your experience, and happy you generally found it to be very well balanced, I find the last paragraph intriguing.

I have had 3 other children go through the general education process with 8 different academic schools attended in total( due to husband’s job), and at no time did any child report systematic humiliation and verbal abuse of any sort let alone that which caused them to suffer and breakdown. There was certainly criticism balanced with praise for a job well done, yes. Certainly some teachers nicer/ better than others, yes.Certainly encouragement when things got tricky and most of all respect for fellow human beings even when they weren’t doing so well. There was always clear and transparent communication between parents and teachers and pupils which increased as the university years approached. And plenty chance for pupils to grow as individuals, make their own choices and have responsibility in their future. The biggest difference was the approachability of the schools knowing that if there was an issue it was dealt with quickly and taken seriously even if  the outcome wasn’t in your favour. The difference between the 2 is stark. Of course there is much, much more to it than that. 
All my other kids had little jobs at 15/16 - getting prepared for the world and meeting others/ forming friendships.

They socialised at weekends and took part in extra activities after school building confidence and opening their minds to the endless opportunities. 
They came home every night and were able to offload about their day, relax in different environment and seek help from different sources. They were well rounded, mature individuals because they had been treated as such.
They weren’t under curfew, sitting in their rooms talking endlessly about  Ballet whilst dreading how a certain teacher would try and humiliate them tomorrow. 
At one point, during the bullying my eldest child spoke out and told me it was totally unacceptable to leave my dd there. We begged her to leave and she was very close because she was broken, but she believed it would get better.  It didn’t.

30 minutes ago, BaffledBalletMum said:

This is such an important part of the loss. Do you mind sharing how being assessed out impacted her studies? Assuming she was in US. Did it interrupt A-levels? Did it prevent her from completing the diploma and/or the Bachelors that is available.  

  I will pm you if that’s okay?

My dd had a relatively happy time at WL with a couple of wonderful and talented teachers ( one in particular) who were encouraging annd supportive and bringing out the best in my dd. However, that was not the case for every student which my daughter witnessed. And that’s what this thread is about. Those who are damaged unnecessarily. And it is unnecessary. There doesn’t need to be any assessments if the AD made it his job to know his students by teaching them. Not knowing a student’s name after 5 years is plainly not acceptable and frankly terrible management. If students were treated as individuals, collaborators in their own training they would know themselves, that staying at RBS would not be productive for them. It wouldn’t be some traumatic shock because it would have been discussed in a healthy, positive respectful manner long before the event and students who’s best interests lay elsewhere would have been supported- not just in one, one off meeting, but along the journey, building their relationships with other schools, other forms of dance, choreography, teaching etc. 

No one needs to be told to leave the year before graduation. There are no replacements in that year so why? 
Why? Because the graduation year is the representative year for RBS and they can’t show anybody who doesn’t meet the standard. Well, that’s fair but part of that standard is their own teaching and they have to be, at least partly accountable for that. My dd wasted several years being demolished by one teacher and regularly told her ‘ basics’ weren’t there by another.

I would ask ‘ why were the basics not there after 3 years at WL?  Especially as when she auditioned for the school the AD asked her  in the interview for yr9 ’Where did that beautiful technique come from’ ? So where did that beautiful technique go? That is a question. Dd would have accepted she was not to be ‘ shown’ to the world if she could have stayed and finished her degree. She would have traded being invisible to finish her degree.
Academic work was always important to her and she worked hard for 2 years to get a degree.

The school will tell you they help you after assessment. I would say that’s an extremely generous spin on what actually happens. For a start, they have never bothered to get to know you so they have no idea what you want to do and while they will put you in a studio and film an audition sequence for the schools you’ve written on your list, it is deeply impersonal and its obvious it’s just procedure.

There are no meetings with the AD, as I said, he remains an enigma.

I also know that after been assessed out students are expected to hang about the studios while others are in rehearsals for their performances. Not a nice place to be or a useful place to be.

So the fact that my daughter had a reasonably happy time for some of the years at RBS does not change the fact that the core practices and values do not connect to healthy practices.

34 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I don't know how much feedback is given to anyone 'assessed out'.  I'm assuming there must be some.

 

A jury with a marking system,  a subjective opinion... neither are infallible sadly.

 
There is no feedback. No opportunity to talk to anyone.

Its a two line email stating the assessment was unsuccessful.
 

6 hours ago, capybara said:

I have just looked at Vadim Muntagirov's recently published autobiography From Small Steps to Big Leaps to see whether he says anything about his training at the RBS. One has to remember, of course, that he arrived at the RBS via the Prix de Lausanne and from a brutal teaching regime in Perm - and that he was ultra talented.

 

Nevertheless, he comes out with a few telling statements about the interpersonal relationships between staff and students, for example: "I really felt that (X) cared about us all"; "approachable teachers"; "feedback including compliments"; "discipline and high expectations combined with support". Then, when referring to his joining ENB in the first instance: "I have always felt that the people around me at the time had my best interests in mind".

 

https://shop.roh.org.uk/products/vadim-muntagirov-from-small-steps-to-big-leaps-book  among other retailers, of course.

 

 

There were students in my daughters year ( US) who were getting the tuition they paid for. Who were being given the attention they deserve and / need to progress within RBS. They have a positive experience with teachers who ‘care’ and ‘nurture’

Then there are the few who are not.  Who, from week 3 of 1st year have caught the teachers eye in a negative way and whose difficulties become an issue that cannot be addressed without bullying or being ignored or not given any performance opportunities whatsoever because they simply can’t be shown to represent RBS/ embarrassment. These minority students will have a very different experience. They have already been negatively marked in some way and are no longer worthy of working with in the same context as the students with the potential. 
There will be plenty people reading this who will say the usual stuff about ‘ getting used to disappointment’ or ‘this is the ballet world’ etc etc.

What I would say is that ALL students that have been accepted to US should be given care and nurture and if difficulties arise then then even more reason to address them and to help that student reach their potential, whatever that may be. Young people are not commodities to be discarded when something more attractive appears. This is a school we are talking about. Not a company.

Just wondering if your dd has time to heat some soup and put it in a flask?

There are some reasonably healthy ready made soups out there and she could add microwave noodles which take just a minute. If she had time to make some soup over the weekend and freeze it then even better, but that’s maybe pushing it. There are plenty squat flasks suitable for rice ( 2 minutes in microwave) which she could add chicken or salmon, edamame and soy sauce. Would give her something hot during the winter.

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

Several years ago I watched a documentary about Usain Bolt. Much of it showed young Jamaican runners during their training, and the difference between that and what ballet students go through was jaw-dropping. They were continually told they were the best of the best, that they were amazing and their self-esteem was through the roof. That's how to train world-beaters. You tell them how great they are, and they respond to that positive encouragement, and genuinely believe they can achieve anything if they train hard enough and put their minds to it. Failure is not an option in their minds, and they go out and win.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

This is exactly it! 
And the more a student struggles the more help and positivity and motivation and nurture they need - not the other way about! Where did this distorted teaching come from?

I asked my dd if, in the year she was beaten down and crushed by the teacher, she had received any positive feedback at all. Any one single positive comment? My dd was very certain that in a whole years tuition(?) the teacher had not said one single positive word to her despite my dd taking the corrections (mostly humiliating) and working on them late into every night trying so very hard to please her.

No wonder, she felt  couldn’t take it anymore 

2 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

I was thinking about this thread this week when we had a feedback call with my son's sports coach from the talent development pathway he is on. He has (as far as the sport is concerned) a significant physical deficiency that can't be changed - basically he is too short to make it to the very highest level, no matter what else he does. But that's always been treated fairly.  No false hopes, and no disparaging comments either. We discussed his strengths and weaknesses candidly. No platitudes and the coach is definitely not "soft" but she also pointed out what he's achieved, where he is improved and what other areas need work to further compensate for his lack of height.

There are kids on the pathway that are probably destined for the Olympics in due course. My son is not one of them and he knows it, but he has never felt that he is just there to make up the numbers, there's a genuine desire to make him the best player he can be even if it's not the national team. There isn't just one end game and nothing else matters. After getting his feedback he has decided to attend this year's trials (everyone had to try out again every year, nobody automatically progresses) but I know if he is not successful they'll offer advice on what he should be doing instead and he gets the option of coming back to a few sessions later in the year so they can review their decision if he wants. The experience has been radically different compared to my DD's experiences in the dance world.

I know we are lucky to be in a good system but also to have excellent individuals locally. Junior sport is not without its problems and there are bad experiences  in all fields. But my son's experience shows it can be done. Issues with physique can be handled candidly but sensitively. It is possible to develop young people without perfect physiques and to show them alternative paths without making them feel like they have been thrown on the scrap heap. These issues can be discussed honestly without being unkind. If (at least some) sport can do it, surely ballet should be able to as well?

Well said! Thank you!

Thank you Emeralds for your post and for clarifying. Appreciated.

 You’re right that she was taken into US  not having ‘a suitable ballet body’ ( teacher’s words) ( joint issues) and bullied because of it.

She is not dancing now due to a serious injury sustained in 1st year ( due to her joint inefficiency) which may never heal and was insufficiently treated ( independently clarified by private consultants).

In all this, there was absolutely no communication from the school whatsoever until the one line negative assessment result.

I must also disagree with the idea that institutions abroad are more nurturing and encouraging. They are different, yes. After 3 months in a top European Ballet School my dd would say the body shaming  is just unbelievable. She was completely and utterly shocked. It was not directed at her but at others in her class. It seemed to be part of the curriculum and the students seemed to be pretty used to it, which is extremely sad. Having always had the best guidance on nutrition and never witnessing criticism on body shape in all 5 yrs she was at RBS, it came as a very unpleasant experience. She was, however,  treated as a mature individual by the AD, who made it his job to know all his students very well.  He asked her opinions and her gaols and helped her tremendously. A totally new experience for her after RBS, where the only couple of times she met the AD he called her the wrong name.

25 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

I would hope that misunderstandings about teacher feedback could be largely avoided if students/parents are encouraged and enabled to ask for clarification if something said, or written,  is not clear. Maybe easier said than done in some cases of course.

This was the clarification Richard. 
That her body was ‘ very difficult’ for classical ballet. If you have an explanation for the clarification then do please let me know. Because personally that clarification took me 2 weeks of asking, to obtain and left us feeling extremely angry and confused. We are talking about the Royal Ballet School. She had been previously training there for three years.

16 hours ago, Emeralds said:

I’m glad your dd had a good experience, Ruby. It sounds like she was thought to be one of the “Fine” ones who never got the negative treatment the students on the Panorama and File on 4 programmes did. 

 

Unfortunately it is quite a common pattern among directors with bullying/intimidating tactics to do just that: separate his or her charges into two groups - the “good” group that according to him/her looks fine, has talent, produces the results they want, looks the way they like them to look, and an “undesirable” group who has one or more traits he/she doesn’t like: eg the “wrong” appearance, or doesn’t produce the results or kind of dancing they want, but has enough talent such that he/she can’t get rid of them just yet. With the “good group” such directors can be Dr Jekyll and sweet, supportive, perfect; behind closed doors or what they think are closed doors  they can be Mr Hyde to those they think don’t measure up. A good director or principal should be Dr Jekyll to all, and equally patient, supportive and encouraging to all- that’s what a teacher, principal or director should be in any field or any school. So if your dd was thought to have ticked all the right boxes in their opinion, that’s why she had positive treatment.  

 

You've hit the nail on the head with regard to the work of the health team - all good health teams will give proper diet and nutrition information. And I suspect that is why none of the students who were body shamed or bullied to lose weight described having a dietician or doctor in the meetings where they were body shamed- probably because the dietician and the doctor would have taken the student’s side and objected to the instruction to lose weight! In fact, one student did describe going to see the school nutritionist who said her diet was healthy....meaning there was no more scope for her to lose any more weight. And hence she should never have been told to lose weight in the first place.

 

I'm perplexed by why the schools are asking very young students to lose weight. At 12 to 15 they are not due to look for a job. Nature will take its course. Is it just so that they will look thin at the end of year school performance? I would be more worried to see so many thin lower school children in the defilé- that’s unnatural and not at all normal. 

 

There are examples of two famous ballerinas from the Mariinsky (then called the Kirov) who in their teens were a little more full figured than when they became principal dancers. Early photos of them reminded me of some of the photos of the students in the programme when the schools pronounced them “too heavy”. They didn’t get “assessed out”- I don’t know if the Vaganova School connected to the Mariinsky/Kirov ever did that- in fact they were offered jobs with the company. Who are they? - Natalia Makarova and Altynai Asylmuratova. Both legends. Imagine if they got asked to leave the school! The directors clearly saw the talent they had and were patient, and they did become more slender as they grew older (granted they weren’t overweight to begin with- neither were these students). 

 

 

Perhaps you haven’t seen my previous posts Emeralds.

My dd obviously didn’t tick any of the right boxes!

She was assessed out after a year of verbal abuse that literally crushed her.

As I said before in another post that was shut down, she cried every day that year and more than in the whole of her 17yrs. At one point the teacher in question put a line of 6 girls in 1st cast, a line of 6 girls in 2nd cast and then sniggered to my daughter that ‘ ‘oh dear, looks like you’ll need to be in 3rd cast won’t you?’ Picked up her bag and left the room. There was no 3rd cast. It was a completely unnecessary comment to undermine her already non existent confidence. She was broken that night. Not because she wasn’t good enough to be in the performance but because of the underhand nastiness, the lack of helpful communication. What help was that comment? It did not help her gain more strength/ improve her technique/ gain more artistry. What it did do was humiliate and belittle her. The teacher bullied her in every class for a whole year ( from 3rd week in Upper School) because she was frustrated that my dd was not good enough. The teacher told me she did not have a good body for Classical Ballet. Having been accepted for Upper School, this was fairly concerning.

None of this was to do with weight or physical appearance and I stand by my previous post that the messages  she was receiving regarding that subject were extremely positive. 
 
I do, however completely take your point that a ‘rogue’ teacher, ( I have described one above) who is not part of the health team and not on board with the positive policies of the School

can simply cause the worst damage imaginable with their words.