Ruby Foo

It sounds like your daughter tries very, very hard in her performances and, as a result, all that trying is coming out in tension in her hands. 
Have you noticed tension appearing in other upper parts such as her neck, shoulders and her face? Particularly her mouth? Has her teacher commented on these hands? Or has it been noticed in exam reports? The reason I am asking is because in different parts of the world, ballet hands do appear slightly differently. French and Russian styles do have a slightly different approach to hands than that in the U.K. So what might appear slightly different for us in UK, would be acceptable in other parts of the world.

Is it possible that her hands might show tension all the time, even in class work, it's just not so easy to spot because class work is more formulaic? Could your daughter be hyperextended? Often it's really tricky to control hypertension and the weight of the body is often in the wrong place leading to the student to cling on and take tension in the wrong places.

Often, when you tell young students to pull up, grow very tall, try very hard etc, you get an adverse reaction in that they suck themselves up so much that all the tension rises into the upper body and they pull peculiar faces, shoulders go up and the arms and hands become very stiff and taught. Many young students are trying to identify with the fantasy of being this beautiful ballet dancer rather than an understanding of breath and freedom of movement without forcing or it being an effort, which is obviously preferable. I would ask her teacher if there's an issue and if there is, maybe keep her dances simple so she can fully focus on breathing through movements and an understanding of how those arms and hands are a sensitive vessel for the positive energy within oneself. The tension needs to focused in the core muscles which support and stabilise the dancer, leaving the upper body free and completely at ease. So, to correct this unwanted tension, we are looking internally, to the central core, rather than simply fixing the hands, which would lead to the hands being statically pretty but not really being the living, guiding energy which propels the dancer through space and into lines which extend forever.... out through the studio walls and beyond. So the arms and hands are the vessel of expression which starts at the core and extends and extends, constantly flowing and moving, even when completely still.

I always find analogies with arms/ hands and water very helpful. You can try simple movements like figure of eight with the arms in front of the body. What would it feel like to move these arms through the resistance of water? How would these arms and hands be if they were passive seaweed being rocked by the waves? With her hands by her side, ask her to lift her arms up out of the water, elbows picked up first, back of hands on top, letting the water droplets  run off the backs of the hands and down the fingers. Make the fingers shapely. You can do this by holding the hand softly downwards ( curved with water droplets running off) and placing a straw under the index finger, over the long 2nd finger, under the 3rd and over 4th. The hand is curved and softly drooping but still breathing energy. Also the comparisons to breathing and the feeling of cool air grazing the arms and hands as they sensitively lead the dancer through  space.

Hope this helps. Sorry it's so long!  It's hard to know, without seeing your daughter dancing.

Its great that you've noticed though because tension in the upper body can be very hard to get rid of once it becomes habitual. 

Thanks for sharing this balletbean. A little chink of hope and joy amongst the trauma.

It is extremely rare for students to be assessed out. It does happen occasionally, but I think it's usually because a student hasn't been able to attend classes for whatever reason, maybe illness or injury or discipline issues, rather than they are not meeting the standards generally.

Cant remember how we heard, but I think it was a couple of lines in an email. Nothing detailed.

Can you tell me please approximate age of your daughter?

24 minutes ago, balletbean said:

I’m never comfortable with watching such young dancers performing many of the variations, to me they are just not age appropriate. 
I also don’t understand why some teachers are in such a rush either… prestige?!  

 
Exactly my thoughts too balletbean.

It is reduction of a beautiful, quality solo (which requires maturity and depth) to a collection of cold steps, rehearsed to death. It doesn't impress me one bit, no matter how impressive the steps are presented.

17 minutes ago, Birdy said:

RBS has officially changed their program. As of this year Upper School students are assessed/have to audition again during their second year if they want to stay for the final year. It seems unfair to students who were told they were being accepted to a 3-year Bachelor’s Degree program when they were initially accepted. My daughter knows two young men who were recently told, at 18, that they will not be invited back for the third year.

Couldn't agree more. As they are not generally taking in more students for 3rd year, then why not keep all of them and let them get their degree.

1 hour ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I thought the same as you @Peanut68 I can think of at least one student who joined just for the final year within the last 2 years. I thought RBS has offered the degree programme for a good few years now, maybe last 4 years. And I always thought a few students leave at the end of the second year and are still eligible for some sort of exit award (maybe a Foundation Degree). It does seem a few new ones often from competitions etc join the third year and no one is really assured the full 3 years. But I could be wrong. This is just from what I’ve heard over the last few years. 

Some students are assessed out after 2 years and therefore do not go on to obtain the full degree. They  are not  usually replaced for the third year.

39 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

I’m pretty sure that most of the UK vocational ballet upper schools/courses accept 18 year olds & its quite common for newcomers (especially from overseas) to join the Grad third year. Places free up by those who leave plus I think numbers can increase in older years where boarding is not on site & up to 18+ aged students to find 

Hasn’t RBS just announced that in effect the upper school now is a 2 year course with then a new round of auditions for the third year? I saw that as a new way to justify them parachuting in the many talented international students they always seem to have done into third year (& often then the company) These often are highly trained ‘hot housed’ dancers & competition winners etc. 

 
Since starting the 3 yr degree course, RBS don't accept anyone new in 3rd year.

26 minutes ago, Maryy said:

Do you know Hannah Martin? (You can know her by checking her youtube channel) I know she started full time training when she was 18 at Elmhurst ( she joined the graduate year) and now she is an apprentice at Birmingham Royal Ballet.

 
It sounds like you are doing your research 👍and I'm sure if you continue, you'll find more places worldwide who will take someone exceptionally talented at 18. And more dancers who did it! You sound as though you are taking your current tuition seriously too by checking your teacher's credentials. 

 

If you were exceptional enough, (phenomenal world class dancer)  to be accepted by a renowned ballet school at 18, then you would probably be on track to find a career in dance. I personally don't know any top schools who take ballet dancers at 18.

I can understand your concerns about moving across the world to train but realistically I think going away to vocational training at 18 is unusual for someone who wants to pursue a classical ballet career. There are students who have already reached a professional standard, who want to 'finish' or 'polish' at a certain school or with a certain renowned teacher, for their last year, who may go at 18 for that purpose. But they would have already attained a professional standard and be looking for that something extra. For contemporary, however, it would be perfectly acceptable to be thinking of starting somewhere at 18. Places like Rambert, Alvin Ailey, London Contemporary etc all prefer mature students who have reached a very high standard of dance.

You don't mention your age, but if you are worried about living abroad at 16 then you could try for schools that offer accommodation as part of the package. You would be living in accommodation as part of the school, with houseparents to keep an eye on you and your food provided. Places like RBS, Elmhurst, SAB, etc There are lots and lots of international ballet students here in the UK training from 16, some who don't speak a word of English, so plenty of support from others in same position. There are other schools like ENB, NBS, Central School,and European schools where you stay in student accommodation independently from the school but sharing with your fellow students. You usually shop and cook your own food in accommodation like this. If you don't have a Guardian in your country of choice then the schools will help you. A Guardian is helpful for halfterm holidays or to stay in the event of illness.

You could look at some other posts on this forum about the pluses and minuses of waiting until 16 to start full time training. It will be about the quality and quantity of training you can find where you are right now, plus the financial means.
 

2 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Not from personal experience as my DD was never a JA but I think the diff between those two is that the 32 weeks basically attend almost every week apart from school breaks etc. The 24 weeks is more every other week. I always used to think that if we had the choice I’d opt for the 24 weeks because it frees up some time to spend time with the family. Weekly is a lot of commitment especially if they have siblings. However if your DC wants to try for full time in a few years then maybe the 32 weeks is a better option as I noticed these days that those who get full time places seem to train a lot more hours compared to a few years ago (the more hours, the better, or that’s how it seems anyway). I think you can just pick one centre, does it not let you proceed with the online application if you don’t pick a second choice? Although, again, these days it’s not unheard of for kids to travel miles (travel times in excess of an hour)  to get to the “nearest” centre. 

Living in Scotland, our nearest Center was Newcastle ( Dundee was not an option in those days). A round trip 250 miles and much more for those living in the North of Scotland. We have fond memories of those early morning train trips!

This must be very distressing for you to watch Flexy Nexy. 
One of my daughters has been trying to get her friend back to Turkey on a repatriation flight for the last 2 days. It's proving impossible. The friend is very, very frightened.

Sad that some things never seem to change 😢

Uniforms are usually linked to a particular exam board. Teachers adopt the uniform of the exam board to save parents money in paying for the regulation uniform at exam time. It also gives the classes a nice disciplined feel which is extremely important in dance. If students are turning up in their own choice of uniform then there should still be emphasis on tidy hair, shoes, and rules on when leg warmers, leggings, sweat tops are allowed. Basically, the discipline of dance training is mirrored in everything.

Just to add and, as others have said, no one has it all. An RBS associate teacher once described it as a Rubik's cube, you just hope to cover as much of each side as possible and have as much fun as possible!

5 hours ago, Robinredbreast said:

For JA’s and arguably WL I don’t think there is much extra classes can do. RBS is all about the physique and there’s little you can do to change what you’re born with. That’s why I get cross with some teachers attributing a child’s success in these schemes to their training: in my view a child with non-RBS physique (which is in no way the same as non-ballet physique….) cannot be coached to be offered a place, no matter how good the training. 

 
In my experience, RBS take a wide range of physiques both for JAs and vocational. The rule for long legs and short torso, longish neck and good feet probably stands true but its interesting to see the many variants of this.

There is so much more to take into account. The way you move, how you interpret the music, your natural musical phrasing, your natural sense of line, sense of performance, how you tell a story, flexibility (for ease of movement), turn out (for technique), your ability to pick up sequences of steps, focus and concentration, natural sense of turning, balance, natural ballon, etc

Its all about ' natural' gifts that can't be taught from a physio or a teacher although they will certainly be able to help in some areas.

It sounds complicated but an experienced teacher can tell these things from steps as simple as skipping, gallops, jumping.

2 hours ago, rowan said:

The problem is the focus on exams and the hold that the RAD in particular has. It’s endemic in the UK, but irrelevant in most of the rest of the world. I can see  lots of good reasons for exams, but also huge downsides. 

  
Well said! Too many well meaning parents are totally sucked in by exams in the UK. 

With regards to the level of training, gr1 and 2 sound perfect!

Good feet would generally mean feet that are flexible and strong so they will give a nice atheistic look to the lines and will also be suitable for pointe work. 
In general terms, feet that have a nice arch and instep and are reasonably flexible.
People often refer to ' banana feet ' in ballet. Certainly lots of ballet dancers do have very flexible and bendy feet but it's not as straightforward as it sounds because truly beautiful, bendy feet are very, very difficult to work with and need lots of work to strengthen. As do the legs and pelvis in order that everything is supporting.

Lots of dancers don't have those very bendy feet, but have reasonable arches and insteps and then work on strength and flexibility. 
What is more tricky is very flat feet with little arch or instep and little flexiblity. This is because it will very tricky in the future to get right over the block en pointe.

All types of feet can be worked on with specific exercises given by a qualified teacher or dance physio.

I have experience of Junior Associates taking all 3 types of feet but for fully vocational, reasonably good feet would be required.

Banana on whole grain toast with a drizzle of honey.... if she has time and if she likes bananas, which many people don't.

3 hours ago, Beezie said:

This is a great discussion!  PlainJaney has a really good point.  Especially if you don’t have dance experience, it is really hard to recognize ‘quality.’  I’d love to hear the attributes others look for in quality training or quality dance experiences.  (Though I recognize some of the posters have already  made some very good and specific recommendations along these lines.)

I think this is one of the most difficult tasks for a parent who has no experience in dance. 
When I was looking for a really good local school for my Dd, it was really easy because I was an ex dancer/ teacher. The school we chose would have been a surprise to many people I guess. There were plenty large and prolific schools who won competitions and boasted exam results but the one we chose was tiny and out in the styx. We were new to the area so we were coming in blind. The teacher was a well qualified RAD teacher but she had very few classes and nothing other than ballet. She did exams but no competitions or anything else. The advert was the first thing to catch my attention because the pictures showed dancers who were technically correct in placement and nothing showy or 'wowing' in nature. There was a quiet attention to detail from the start. From my own training, I could look through the window, and be happy that this teacher knows her stuff. The care with which she demonstrated the exercises and spent time correcting the students was healthy. The students paid attention, were disciplined but having fun. All this proved to be correct allowing my child to pursue dance more seriously later down the line. But if you don't have that inside knowledge? Firstly look at the teachers qualifications and research.

Does the teacher have other past experience that might widen his/ hers experience in teaching or dance?

What does the teacher do to keep in contact with other teachers/ new ideas/ courses?

How many children in a class? Can the teacher really get round to give every child corrections? And are these corrections followed up diligently week after week after week followed by praise when achieved? Usually your child can tell you if they've been asked to work on something they need to improve.

Does the teacher let you watch one class from time to time and if so, is the class well organised? Positive?  Disciplined in that the teacher grabs the students attention and makes the most of the studio time by working through the syllabus or free work, stopping to make corrections and having some joyful moments too? Attention to the uniform and hair and shoes tidy?

Does the teacher give a little feedback to parents from time to time?

Does the teacher help with extra strength or conditioning exercises where needed and is she/ he keen to stress the safety of doing exercises at home?

Do a few pupils from the school go on to do associate classes? Usually the school will post these successes on social media.There are quite a few associates about now but reading this forum should clue you up.

When it's exam time, does the teacher 

take great care to make sure the students are well prepared? Pay attention to every little detail...the steps, presentation, confidence, music, shoes, leotards, hair, smiles?
These are just a few ideas / guidelines that might help but that's all they can do. I'm sure other people have other ideas. For example, I have had the most incredible ballet teachers ( for older students) that sat on a chair for the whole class and never demonstrated a thing! 

Applying for a good associate class will tell you if your child has potential and some correct technical ability (younger students will be potential only) and the classes themselves will tell you if they are mirroring their own classes at home and are on track.

Even though your Dd doesn't know what lies ahead and what choices she will make, Ballet underpins most forms of dance ( excluding tap). So focusing on VERY HIGH QUALITY ballet lessons at this stage would be an investment for the future, whatever style may attract her down the line. As others have said, it's definitely quality over quantity plus her enjoyment and joy of dance. Don't stop the jazz ( for example) if this is the genre she loves!

Maybe try out for some good associates lessons if you can. You can get financial assistance with most of these. Try always to keep the balance between upping the ballet classes with 'real life stuff' like friends outside of ballet, parties, other hobbies, walking the dog. Easy to say but not so easy to do!  Ballet can become an obsession and a solitary focus and, at the end of the day, while it's nice to have a goal and a dream, very, very few people will get to the top of that perilous pyramid. So it's more important to be a well rounded, healthy individual. 

Personally, I think that it’s so important that  people in positions of power, when dealing with young people ( especially adolescents) need very clear/ sensitive communication. The choice of words are SO important. It may not be the news you want to hear but if you ‘understand’ the motives and it’s delivered sensitively, then you can learn and move on. The idea of making students curious and reflective about why they didn’t win this time round would be preferable to crushing all self esteem. 

Resilience is not about grinning and bearing it, but continuing to learn knowing that ultimately your self worth can only be measured by you and not by others.

Happy days! Very well done to your daughter!

Some nice bamboo leggings would be nice and free and soft.

There’s loads of nice ribbed stretch leggings too in all the fashion shops in pretty balletic colours. Seems to be the trend.

I feel the same when I wear proper sports leggings to go for a run, simply no go. Too restrictive. I’ve taken to wearing my daughter’s black warm up pants which are nice and free.

Agree with Peanut68 that you can’t go wrong with opaque black footless tights, in a large size so plenty stretch.