Ruby Foo

Without doubt the chances are greater for boys starting late, than girls. Will still be a huge challenge but if he feels this is his pathway to fulfilment and he’s fully aware of the amount of hard work, then better to get started! Do you have a very good school near you that will support and offer enough training to get back to the level needed to audition? Having a decent voice will help no end.

The other option or plan b might be to take adult classes at a dance center and apply for amateur musical theatre groups. Another plan b would be to join some excellent dance and musical theatre groups at university. I’ve heard some are very professional. Sometimes you can do what you love by going through a different door.

1 minute ago, Roberta said:

 

"Quaint can also be used to show that you do not approve of something, especially an opinion, belief, or way of behaving, because it is strange or old-fashioned"   https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/quaint

Thank you for educating me Roberta.

20 minutes ago, Roberta said:

 

It all got rather specific in the middle of the night and we do need to keep it general I feel rather than any particular school, and this thread is about a particular school. This particular school, the RBS, was specifically mentioned by Leigh Day as the one a court case was being brought against. I don't know how far along the line that has now proceeded. (And we need to always have libel law in our minds of course, I had a friend caught up in one of those, a SLAPP case really, and though she didn't lose it still cost her a great deal of money to fight  / settle.) Last news I saw on the RBS case was here. https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2023-blogs/abuse-in-ballet-update/

 

 

We have registered one case already at the High Court in London and await a court hearing to address next steps in that case, to include the listing of a trial date. We have also instructed a barrister Nina Ross to work with us on these cases, and she is also going to be acting, as we are, on a no win no fee basis.

Royal Ballet haven’t provided a response at the date of writing

 

This is why I said I think it could be a poisoned chalice for any new AD.  New job and the glare of adverse publicity? 

 

I can't say who I think will be applying for the role as I have no crystal ball.   I'm not sure some mentioned here have the relevant experience. / expertise mix. The current AD is staying on until summer I believe and I look forward to reading the advert with the role description. 

 

As an aside, it wasn't so very long ago that students at White Lodge were expected to curtsey / bow if the Director was spotted in the vicinity. That was still the case when Mere Park was in charge. Quaint. 

 
I don’t find it quaint at all. And finding out it happened ‘ not so long ago’

makes me even less impressed.  It happened at my vocational school ( not RBS) when I first went age 10. Definitely a hark back to Establishment and their strange fascination with power/ control/ authority and social status.

Thank goodness, most have now modernised and students make the choices and decisions about their own destiny, guided by approachable tutors.

36 minutes ago, Sophoife said:

Ruby, I meant shift the entire Lower School to Covent Garden. Permanently.

 Yes, sorry. I wasn’t really referring to the students in my post though.  I just quoted you because it was about location. My mistake.
I was referring to a new AD trying to do what I would wish for ( being present and in touch) whilst travelling between the two locations which is really unrealistic.

24 minutes ago, Sophoife said:

Back in the day, @invisiblecircus, when both Lower and Upper Schools were at Baron's Court (yes, I know very well the facilities are unsuitable for a modern ballet school), there was just the sort of link/progression you describe as desirable.

 

Perhaps the solution is for the lease in Richmond to be surrendered and the Lower School to be moved, boarders and all, to Covent Garden. Can you imagine the cost in these days 😳 even so, I think it would be a good idea. Staff could teach in both divisions, and the AD's obligation to keep an eye on/be aware of all students would be much easier to fulfil.

 
Travelling from White Lodge to Upper School can take anything from an hour to 2.5. hours. Since they closed the Hammersmith Bridge, the traffic around SW London is unbearable at the wrong times. Just stating the impracticalities.

8 hours ago, Birdy said:

At my child’s school, the head of the school is also the AD for the second/junior company. He doesn’t teach class at the upper school on a regular basis, but he maintains a steady presence, and drops in on classes. He knows all of the students by name and they have regularly scheduled short meetings with him. They talk about their goals, where they want to audition, or just any concerns they have or struggles they’re having related to dance. He has a group chat set up where he notifies them about upcoming auditions. He even checked in with them when a company wanted to come to audition students during a particularly busy time—asking if it would work for the students or if he should try to schedule it at a different time. Yes, it is mostly teachers and administrators that handle to day-to-day work, but he sets the tone for the school  and he makes sure to be particularly involved with helping guide the upper level students. The school is very international and of a very high standard, so it is possible. 

 
This sounds very healthy Birdy and how it should be. 
 

In 5 years at RBS, (3 at WL and 2 in Upper) the AD only spoke to my daughter once - at her audition.

1 hour ago, Roberta said:

My goodness though, so much reality in that.

 

It's all a very long way from five bob in the church / village hall on Saturday morning  for ballet, tap ballroom and modern stage, with Auntie Nelly (yes I knew an Aunty Nelly who taught dance) or Miss Dora, which was what a great deal of dance teaching used to be. Very few even considered a career, it was fun, a show every year, medal tests, a few grades, and then the real world of work hit. The lucky few went on, few ever made a ballet company or west end show,  but panto, cruise ships, summer shows at seaside resorts,  and all the rest, gainful employment. 

 

Of course there were professional studios, but in reality small in number. 

 

It's a huge business now is dance teaching, and ever expanding, with ex pros needing work after retirement, and the  unending, expanding  stream of those taking full time teaching courses too. In order to gain a teaching reputation, students need to be seen to be achieving, to be 'sent on'.

 

And yet, jobs are still not in abundant supply, would-be employers can pick and choose, everything is much more international, and it is difficult for aspiring dancers to see they aren't going to make the grade no matter how nurtured.  A fortune has been spent, and parents want to see a return. 

 

Careers can be made that are dance related if a young person has the gumption and drive, but again, that's often a case of luck rather than planning. (I know of one person who took her Grade three ballet as a young  adult and left what she was doing to go on to make a hugely successful career in the dance world, not dancing,  but possibly that isn't something that would happen now either. (If she reads this she knows who she is...) 

 

I have few answers, I simply see the reality, and that piece covers so much of it. 

 

1 hour ago, Peanut68 said:

Interesting read from the link shared above. Honest, brutal but also - I felt - a little one sided. The suggestion was pretty much that those failing to successfully gain a dance career were most likely those who were never going to succeed anyhow & should've much sooner left the training path anyhow. That may well be the reality in lots of cases, & yes, perhaps it is right to shine a light on the number of training places & schools versus the actual number of jobs in the sector.

But please let's not assume that 'failure' is there from the start for certain pupils. This takes away any accountability to the schools/teachers. Lets face it, some may well 'fail' or leave their path to a potential dance career due to bad teaching not helping them fulfill their talent or could lead to a career limiting injury, eating disorders (we all know that often these are begun in a desire to please a teacher/s by becoming the 'shape' they want) &/or mental health issues.Poor pastoral care (from institutions & also from us parents) can similarly lead to these same problems.

Yes, many train to high standard in many areas (music/sports/dance/science) all with early dreams of top careers/winning/stardom/discovering a cure for cancer etc etc. And yes, if only ever the very top percentage get an opportunity to progress through training paths many would be saved heartbreak, many families would save £1000's & many would maybe find a happier or more achievable goal sooner. But we'd potentially miss out on those maverick stories where someone succeeds against all the odds! And worse, the current 'norm' would be ever perpetuated in the ballet world. so absolutely Groundhog Day. We cannot protect our offspring from failure, we cannot protect them from harsh realities of selection. Yes, we (both parents & the industry) can be kind & realistic & not just keep on paying/taking the money etc. But we shouldn't see it as all about that money either. We do owe it to young folk to provide opportunities where we can & for those taken up to be safe & offer what is promised & be value for money. 

Maybe the dialogue should not just be 'reduce the numbers training' to 'increase the number of jobs' & that is down to all of us....how many send their kids to those early weekly dance classes? Yet how many then regularly go (& also take those same kids) to watch live dance performances? It's not about watching those Instagram 'stars' its about sharing the moment as it happens, being moved by the music & artistry of the performers. Feeling the magic & returning! This in turn will grow demand & thus prices can reduce....etc etc etc.... 

 
Thank you for these posts guys. 
I am definitely guilty of finding excuses not to go to the theatre - who will look after the dogs? There’s a train strike. Too expensive, where to park? etc etc. So much easier to get your child occupied for an hour in a Ballet Lesson. I am part of this problem and thank you for reminding me.

What an inspiring story Roberta re the grade 3 student!  Maybe accounts like these are rare but they give us hope.

5 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

 Thank you for posting. So true, so sad.

 
I do think it’s a little more complex than how it’s portrayed here though. Sometimes students are accepted because there’s nothing more promising -  very true. But some of these do surprise and go on to have fulfilling careers if they are given support and not stripped of their confidence and self esteem early on in the process.

1 hour ago, oncnp said:

Another opinion

 

Matthew Paluch considers ballet dreams vs reality (gramilano.com)

 Thank you for posting. So true, so sad.

12 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

Hmmm....sometimes I fear that is exactly part of the problem in certain institutions - especially where a year group may have just one teacher for their daily grass roots ballet class. If you do not work well with that teacher, you may well not have the same experience as another. And this could hugely affect futures. And similarly, bad practice by a teacher may be missed if the AD is not a present & approachable person to both pupils & staff.

 
Exactly Roberta! This is why we hope and pray for all those young people in training now that things can change! Maybe the job description will change?

Exactly Peanut! Thank you!

Having just one teacher the whole year round may have benefits but also has a whole spectrum of negatives which will never be discovered unless the AD is present for much of the time. 
Quite apart from the problem of clandestine bullying which can remain the whole year there are also problems with different style’s being taught. In 1st year upper the teacher had a very unique style she demanded. In 2nd year, the teacher asked them who had taught them that way and pared it all back.

10 minutes ago, Roberta said:

 

I think you'll find this is something that occurs in many mainstream schools also, especially in large Academies, with a head who oversees more than one site. Many of those are quite successful schools.

 

A head of a smallish school (1000 isn't huge these days) who only has to oversee that school and not play a part on wider world stage of excellence really can't be compared to the AD of the RBS in these times I don't think. 

 

I don't see that dropping in and out and teaching one off classes is adding a great deal to individual student progress, and it all becomes too insular and the role really is much wider ranging and international now.  There are only so many hours in a day, and if you have excellent staff hired to teach, I think they should be allowed to get on with doing that. 

 

 

 

 
Do you mean that being a hands on, in touch, nurturing AD would be beneath the role?

A step down maybe, from travelling the world promoting the RBS and picking up talent en route?

Teachers are not heads of schools. That is a very different role.

Because Roberta, when there is a huge distance between management and students, students have no relationship with management whatsoever ( except fear) and vice versa to the point that management doesn’t even know a student’s name after several years. For a head of any school this is quite unbelievable and unacceptable. To the AD then, that student ceases to be a person and becomes a number or a commodity.

This is very poor management indeed! In any walk of life! A good manager makes it their job to be on the floor. To create positive relationships with all who work for them whether it be secretaries, cleaners, clients, consultants, contractors. This is the way you get the best from everyone and they teach you a great deal too! If you’re present and not too arrogant to learn. It’s a win, win situation where everyone is feeding and learning from everyone else. Everyone feels valued and ‘seen’. This is what is created when an AD teaches his/ her students. Nobody is suggesting the AD should be teaching every day but teaching is the medium for creating relationships and validates a student beyond being a monetary commodity. It is a commitment from the AD that he / she is working for the benefit of the student and is in touch with everything that is happening in his/ her school creating trust and loyalty. The AD knows his / her students well through teaching them and aids communications between staff and students. The fee paying student who are the clients are the most important. Being in touch with them is the key to success. All great leaders  throughout history know this. It’s how wars were won, how Prime Ministers get elected, how the best corporations survive.

When the heads of institutions remain distant and aloof from reality then trouble sets in.

I’ve left the most obvious reason till last - presumably the AD has an interest in teaching his/her students? Hopefully he/she feels they can add something valuable and worthy to a student’s training?

When my daughters attended their academic school in Scotland, the headmaster stood outside the school gate in his kilt every morning from 8am. He greeted every child by name as they came in ( despite being over 1000 students) and usually had something humorous or cheery to say. 
He appeared in the classrooms every day at some point, taught lessons and made it his job to find out how everyone was doing and feeling. The result? A school that was bonded together by him where each child felt they were part of something bigger than themselves.

What a contrast to hearing a child being referred to as ‘it’ in this particular institution which I personally  experienced.

You’re right Roberta. The new AD would need to be a giant in terms of a multi faceted skill set, a creative visionary etc etc etc.

Despite all that, a simple saying comes to mind -‘flowers bloom best when they are tended’.

My daughter was at RBS 5 years. She was weighed at the beginning and end of every term.

Surely no one takes anything the Sun prints seriously! 😳 

The most important thing is that she is able to go and do her best on the day. She can only do that if she is feels happy and confident and free from pressure and stress. She sounds like she has prepared well so there’s no need to force things and keep doing them over and over unless she wants to of course. Now you can focus on being super organised from a practical point of view so there are no glitches on the day - travel timings, spare shoes/ uniform / snack and water bottle and giving her confidence at every opportunity. Putting the emphasis on having a great day out together with plenty fun along the way will relieve her of anxiety and nerves and allow her to relax and do her best. She should have a little think about why going to these particular schools would be important to her and how best to communicate her passion for dance as she will certainly be asked those questions by Tring at least. The academic tests are just a formality to reveal any serious learning difficulties that might need specific attention if a student was to attend. They have no bearing on the result. The more relaxed you can be about the whole event the more freedom she has to shine. Good Luck!

I will pm you.

8 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

 

I am sure I am perhaps not the only person who on this thread or others have had comments blocked as they appeared to not adhere to rules… however, it is very difficult to share personal experiences of offspring when details of those very experiences could identify them explicitly - particularly as there could be elements of abuse and teacher/school bad practise unique to their ‘story’ that their dancing peers of parents or indeed the teachers/schools themselves could recognise & thus know who’s parent is ‘speaking out’. And this in turn is a great example of the air of fear that can follow one even after leaving a school. Perhaps if said offspring had left the whole ballet world behind I would be emboldened to speak up with precise details as I know them to be factual but there is still that shameful fear that those who said they could ‘make them’ & open doors to a career could still - as the unsaid but very much omnipresent subtext at the time implied - break them. So, for the sake of not jeopardising their potential career I have attempted to keep unidentifiable but it does not mean my comments are any less true, any less worthy of sharing. I feel sad that I’m unable to join openly those who can ‘stand up & be counted’ & even more sad that on a ‘safe space’ forum like this I am still unable to share anonymously. (I find it difficult to understand how if one states it’s from a true personal direct experience it is not permissible… surely if names of schools/individuals are withheld then nothing litigious befalls the forum?) 

Silence is the enemy of justice but my experience of whistle blowing ended with the old adage of ‘shoot the messenger’ 
And again here I sadly feel silenced & perhaps others may likewise feel unable to share. And this perpetuates the problem & perhaps hides the true volume of experiences that would be shared? I applaud those brave individuals openly sharing with names & details that can be fact checked…. I note mostly they seem to be talking post leaving the industry….I’d be interested how many more could echo their stories from their own experiences but who don’t because they are still within the dance world & thus feel it safer to stay silent. 

So very true. I can only post here with regards to my daughters experiences because she has changed direction and because those who had power over her are no longer relevant. That’s quite a statement after years of having to watch what was happening and remain silent. The Ballet World is a small one, everyone is linked and that carries over long past school and into auditions and Companies. Everyone who knew her will easily be able to recognise her story from what I’ve written here and even though she’s left there’s still a terrible feeling of fear in every single post I’ve written accompanied by sleepless nights and anxiety. I’ve only done it because I know this topic needs to be seen and heard and discussed and changed. She was unable to speak on the Panorama programme because that was a giant step too far at this stage.

Happy Christmas to everyone who celebrates.

Thank you Moderators for all you do and fellow members for your inputs.

22 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

My DD’s experience of upper school has been great for advising her on being properly fuelled for dance. She now understands the relationship between bone  injuries and nutrition. This had never been explained to her before and thanks to the school she now eats better than ever before. They are mostly dancing from 8am until 5 or 6 pm  so it’s incredibly important. Perhaps in lower schools the children are doing fewer hours and going through puberty so there is more  of fluctuation  in weight but still that is no justification for comments such as “lengthen your lines” as quoted in Panorama  

The development of nutritionists and health teams in Vocational schools including state of the art help with injuries has been one of the most impressive improvements I’ve noticed over the years.

BUT, I don’t think we should assume because of these, all the problems disappear. Issues are far more complex than that.

Students will often start eating much less deliberately when the pressure of assessments are apon them. And this too happens in Grad year. Only a little while ago, my daughter was speaking to a student in Grad year who had lost a lot of weight intentionally. She told my daughter she was doing it for 1 year only.

Despite the very positive messages coming from my daughters school ( one of those featured in the program) regarding diet and nutrition, she had studied the physicality of the students who had been accepted to Upper School from the years before and convinced herself the AD liked a certain look. That may well have been true to an extent. To us, taking in all the available information, we might have considered that artistry and technical prowess would also have been part of that decision. But that’s where young dancers are mentally vulnerable and hyper perfectionist. The subliminal messages are often super distorted because they are living in a pressurised, bubble environment and these are big decisions that have a big impact on their future life. That is why making it your job to know your students really well and enjoying a healthy relationship with them is super important. Not knowing your student’s names after several years, ( which is what happened to my daughter) is a case in point.

I would also like to point out that anyone is free to start a thread on Experience of Good Practice at Vocational Schools. 

Not sure what you are looking for in terms of proof Jan? I can only recall one or two bad experiences at Ballet Schools ever making it to press over the last 30 years. Whereas I recall many articles on up and coming potential stars. Do you want me to research and find these? Would have thought that the many experiences so bravely expressed in this thread that have had no journalistic motivation should be enough to stand on their own. Some of them have stated categorically how the effects of the abuse lasted long after leaving the school.
I know what I have witnessed through 8 yrs of training myself at Vocational Ballet School, 12 years of teaching, with pupils attending RBS, Elmhurst, TringPark, Bird College and Laine and witnessing their experiences, and my daughter training at 3 different vocational schools - 2 in UK and one in Europe. 
A total of 26 years.

There wasn’t a single journalist around touting to speak us about any of the experiences I’ve witnessed or my students have witnessed. Some of these experiences have led to anorexia, self harm, a complete absence of self worth, and giving up dance completely. I’m obviously not going to name names.

There have been also been many positive experiences in certain schools but where there has been negative experiences the same patterns of subtle abuse happens again and again regardless of the school or the year. I was amazed when my daughter told me a couple of years ago that a teacher never looked or corrected anyone in the class bar one student. It happened twice a week for a whole year. I remember this happening when I was training. A ex RB professional ignored everyone for 2 years except one student. Dancers progress with corrections. They pay for corrections. To withhold information that helps a student progress is cruelty and leads to students becoming depressed disillusioned and trying to find alternative solutions to becoming worthy, such as losing weight. I’m appalled this still happens.

The ethos of the schools is coming from a sound place. The health teams do a great job of providing excellent nutritional information. The schools have improved in many ways and it’s great to hear that some schools have changed as direct result of a complaint.  And yet the same type of negative experiences still persist. Not often maybe, but enough to produce a thread like this. What is not happening is constant awareness and a watchful eye on each and every teacher to make sure they are doing their job properly and maintaining healthy communication with students. What actually does go on in the studio? A rogue teacher can lead to a lifetime of problems.

I most certainly can provide evidence Jan. 

But I will need to wait till later as I will want to reply properly.

This is a very important issue which has taken years and years ( and years) to come into the public consciousness and I feel very strongly that if there’s anything positive I can do to to make changes that will help make young dancers life more healthy then I have a duty to do so.

39 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

@Ruby Foo But people talking about their DCs' positive experiences are giving a balanced view.

 

I have found the reports disturbing and upsetting be we should also remember that journalists are after a story and happy students do not a story make.

 

 
I feel I must disagree with you Jan.

I feel that over the years the stories of success ( sometimes genuine and sometimes prematurely inflated) have  far outweighed the many many tales of pain and abuse that have silently been borne and then buried.

It’s very good to hear that students are having positive experiences at vocational schools and I do understand your motivation in posting about your experiences in order to balance the books. But that’s not really what this thread is about! It’s about those who are suffering without a voice. And this thread gives them just that - a voice to express the pain they have been living through in silence and fear. I am speaking from experience of being in a vocational school myself and then my own daughter’s experience at one of the mentioned schools in this thread. They maybe a minority, but they are paying for a service just the same as the majority, and they have fallen foul of the contract they signed up to, in one way or the other, whether it be issues around body image or other abuse. There are many issues here that have a huge impact on young peoples mental health and not just body image although that has been highlighted. The reason these issues have arisen in the first place is because there is no independent body for parents and students to go to when problems arise and therefore the schools have been allowed to disregard these issues because students are too fearful to raise them with staff who they deal with on a daily basis. Nobody is saying that these schools fail everyone, and there are plenty threads on this forum to suggest that many students have a good experience and go on to lead happy and successful lives.

Have you thought of a weekly private lesson? For a couple of hours?

Some of the RBS associate teachers do private lessons if you can find a contact for them. Maybe from the Manchester center or Birmingham?

Sorry, my geography is not great. Maybe someone from Northern could suggest someone fabulous?