Anna C

11 hours ago, sybarite2015@ said:

Presumably - and let's take the Vaganova Academy as an example -- all those 10 year old girls and boys who enrol and get accepted into its ballet programme do so because they want to become professional dancers, ideally principals right? They must do to spend so many years at the limits of human physical accomplishment willingly so mustn't it be a really big disappointment if they manage to successfully graduate but not get professional ballet contracts with the Bolshoi/Mariinksy etc? (Since those who were not so good/talented/determined get weeded out by the course over the years or drop out?) 

It’s not really a case of being “weeded out by the course” because a student isn’t good/talented/determined enough; children are assessed out for other reasons, including physique (something that’s not in their control), and struggling to retain their technique during puberty (common, and can usually be worked through with good, patient teaching).  Some might drop out through extreme homesickness, or because they no longer want to dance as a career.  Some are there because it’s their parents’ dream, not the child’s.  They might make it through Lower School training (11-16) but not get accepted into Upper School, or they might make it to Upper School but be assessed out after a year or two when the school brings in International students and competition winners instead.  

Of course it’s a really big disappointment when you’ve been working towards something since a very young age - sometimes the parent is more disappointed if they’ve been the driving force behind the scenes - which is why I always suggest that any ballet student needs a “Plan B”, usually in the form of academics like a good set of GCSEs in facilitating subjects.  The chances of any 11 year old making it through 5 years of lower school, 3 years of upper school, and into a ballet company with a paid contract are frighteningly slim, especially in the UK post-Brexit.

Six years after having to leave full-time ballet training due to a serious back injury, my daughter still feels sad sometimes about having to stop; it was a grieving process and a difficult journey for her, both physically and emotionally.  But most dancers are very resilient, and with the right help and support, they find a new path.  

Out of all the many dancers my daughter’s age who she knew from Associates/Summer Schools/full-time training, only one or two are still paid ballet dancers.  Most of the others went to university or got jobs in unrelated occupations.  A couple trained as Dance Teachers, one is studying sports science and nutrition.  

We often talk over in Doing Dance about the many desirable and transferable skills serious ballet students and dancers have, regardless of when and why they stopped training, and how their time in ballet is never a waste.  

@Pixiewoo is spot on; here’s some but there’s lots more on google: https://www.planetdance.com/Freed-15mm-Satin-Ballet-Shoe-Ribbon

@glowlight has said everything perfectly. 👏🏻👏🏻 And if your dd doesn’t think she wants to have a career performing as a ballet dancer, there’s absolutely no hurry, and no need to worry about “getting behind”, particularly compared to her friend.  

As glowlight says, unless the studio is new, it’s always good to see where dancers go onto for full-time training, does the studio allow/encourage Associates, do the students make good progress with technique and artistry; if the school does exams are children entered when they’re ready or is there just one exam session for the whole class, that sort of thing.  

A really great way to see how your child and the teaching compare to other dancers of the same age is to audition for a CAT or good selective Associate scheme, because dancers come from all over the region/country.  

17 hours ago, art_enthusiast said:

Where were you sitting, could I ask? Just curious about where the dancers themselves like to sit
 

Also has anyone ever sat in the front row of the Grand Tier, and what was it like? Just wondering, because it seems a bit far away compared to the stalls circle/stalls

Sometimes Kevin O’Hare and various Repetiteurs/Coaches can be seen sitting in the Grand Tier, slightly round to the side, in rows B or C.  I once sat right in front of Matthew Golding in the stalls when he had just joined RB and was watching Giselle. 

I’ve only sat in Row A of the GT on a few occasions and it was a wonderful view - *but* it was for performances of Swan Lake, Giselle, La Bayadère etc. where you want to watch the beautiful patterns of the Corps from an elevated position.  

It wouldn’t be my position of choice for R&J, Onegin or Manon where I want to see faces, but that’s just my personal preference.

15 hours ago, PlainJaney said:

Thank you glowlight, I've been looking at my budget; I was thinking perhaps one good associate if I could afford next year or the year after. Was just worried she may be miles behind by then. I think like you' I like my DD to have the time to relax and see friends aswell as fit homework in!

As long as she’s getting good local training, she won’t be miles behind if she joins a good Associate scheme in year 8 or 9.  Although my dd started at Central School of Ballet Preps in year 7, lots of girls joined in years 8-10 (and dd added in Tring Classical Ballet Academy in year 9, if I remember rightly). 

I don’t know if any of the National Dance CATs are within travelling distance, but they are funded by the Music and Dance Scheme so parents receive means-tested grants, and either contribute nothing or an amount on a sliding scale, dependent on household income.  https://www.nationaldancecats.co.uk. CATs and Associates are designed to supplement good local training, so you will need to be happy that your dd is getting the best quality training at her current studio (and don’t be afraid to change studios if necessary - with the appropriate notice, of course).

Having time to relax, see friends, and do homework is vital, given the extremely slim chance of getting a paid job as a dancer.  I’m always banging on about all dance students needing a Plan B, even if that’s just a good set of GCSEs in facilitating subjects, should the need (or want) arise to study further in future.  

2 hours ago, glissade said:

I do believe that, for many, a non-dancing career combined with amateur dance activities is perhaps more satisfying and fulfilling than dancing professionally would have been for them.

Absolutely, and with much less tendency to have far-reaching after-effects, both physical and emotional.  @Neverdancedjustamum is so right - when my dd made the decision to go to uni rather than back to full-time ballet training (and had the choice made for her by her body), she carried on with Tring CBA and RAD Advanced 2 classes.  With the pressure of auditioning off, her love of ballet was reignited and she started to really look forward to her classes.  If she had an off day, or needed to rest a certain joint, it just didn’t matter.  If she fell out of pirouettes, it didn’t matter; not everything had to be perfect any more.  

She’s now in her final year dancing on her uni’s competition team, and is so enjoying doing other dance styles rather than just focussing on ballet.  

Ballet really can become the be-all and end-all, which is ok if you have the time, energy and finances to take it all the way - AND if your child has the desire, the talent, the physique, and the mental and physical facility to make it through training without injury, illness, mental health problems, homesickness, being assessed out, or even the means to change her or his mind and change path.  Then they have to do it all over again to get a contract - if they can.  

I’ve said before, if we thought about ballet the same way we do horse-riding, football, swimming etc. - i.e. a wonderful extra curricular activity with a very tiny chance of getting into the Olympics or Premier League, it would save a lot of heartache.  

@PlainJaneyas the other good folks here have said, your next steps definitely depend on whether your dd wants to (and has the potential/talent/physique to) aim for a career as a ballet dancer, or whether she wants to be an all-round dancer, whether she can sing and would like to go down the musical theatre route, whether she fancies being a dance teacher, and so on.  Then, you’d need to speak to her dance teachers (if you haven’t already) and ask for their opinion on how realistic her aims are.  If the odds are favourable, then applying for good Associates, or singing lessons, or a CAT Scheme, would be advisable, depending on your dds goal.  

For now, whatever you do, don’t be tempted to compare what you can afford, and what your dd is doing, with *anyone* else.  Don’t get drawn into competitive dance-mum chat (you won’t find that here, my fellow Doing Dance folks are so supportive).  Don’t push the stretching/exercises every night *unless they are exercises that have been prescribed specifically for your child*.  As everyone has said, it’s quality over quantity; she’s only 12 and in a year or two she might change her mind about what she wants to do as a job.  Or she might not, but either way, good quality dance training is never a waste.  

And welcome from me too. ☺️

Hi Whatsthepointe,

Interesting question! If you look on the MDS page of gov.uk, there are no central contact details, you’re directed to each school on the scheme.  So I suppose, depending on what your precise issue is - and assuming you’ve already followed the school’s complaints procedures (including writing to the Board of Governors), the next logical step would perhaps be the Department of Education’s complaints team?

https://www.gov.uk/complain-about-school/private-schools

The ISI might have some advice too, if they inspect the school in question.

How wonderful for Federico and Northern Ballet - and how much I will miss watching one of my all time favourites dance at the ROH. 😭

I so agree with Pups_mum and was going to say just that; judging ballet or any art form is always going to be subjective, and when there’s only one Judge, they are always going to be expressing their own, subjective opinion, and that’s not going to be the same as someone else’s.  Of course, there is favouritism in ballet, and while it’s not ideal, it is widespread - even as an audience member, I have my favourite Royal Ballet dancers, and others who really don’t “float my boat.”

I very much doubt that this one adjudicator was out to break anyone’s spirit, and I agree that for one comp to make your granddaughter give up ballet, it’s likely that it was the straw that broke the camel’s back, and/or she had been wanting to stop ballet for a while.

I remember my daughter doing an RAD competition some years ago, where the Adjudicator was a revered examiner and judge.   The competition was in the form of a class, watched by parents and of course the Adjudicator.  The class itself was excellent, taught by a wonderful ex Birmingham Royal Ballet dancer.  The judging was questionable though, in terms of who won, but what made me really cross was that despite having some wonderful “jumpers” in the class, the Adjudicator declined to award the Allegro prize, saying “Nobody impressed me enough to give this award”.  So demotivating for the dancers, all of whom looked really deflated, and the long day ended on such a flat note.  Whether the Adjudicator was in a bad mood that day, who can say, but it felt like she didn’t want to be there, which made us feel the day had been a waste of our time and money, and the dancers’ energy.

However - although we validated our daughter’s feeling of injustice, disappointment and annoyance, we also reminded her that the class itself had been a super one and a really worthwhile experience, so to think of the day as a masterclass rather than a competition.  And of course that the ballet world can be brutal, unjust, and that if aiming for a career as a dancer, unfortunately unjust/biased people would crop up again and again.  Not that that’s ok, but it is a fact.  She loved ballet so much that no one person could have made her stop.  It was something else entirely that made her change paths.

Even now, dancing on her university team, dd sometimes comes up against unfair judging and “unsporting” opposition, but the team also puts on a fantastic show, has guest teachers coming in to run workshops, and has a vibrant team social life.  Above all, they all love dancing so much that one unfair competition wouldn’t make them stop dancing; they accept the injustices as annoyances and shrug them off.
 

Unfairness and injustice are something most people have to deal with, in all walks of life, unfortunately, but especially in the ballet world.  If we can prepare our children for it and help them pick their battles, it will only help them in later life.  

It sounds like your granddaughter has found great enjoyment in sport now, so perhaps she has gone as far as she wanted to in ballet - or she may come back to it as a young adult, as a lovely hobby. 

Congratulations Angela, how exciting!  Since Beth left Freed of London (St Martin’s Lane), I don’t know who their best fitter is now, so it could be hit and miss there if you’re not experienced en pointe and know how your shoes should feel.  

Having said that, if you’re going to make a day of it, it would definitely be worth making an appointment there, as well as at Bloch and Dancia (both on Drury Lane).  Unless things have changed drastically, for first pointe shoes I would not bother with Capezio (although it’s good for tights, as well as Bunheads accessories like the Stitch Kit).   Unless you have incredibly strong and mobile feet, you won’t want too hard a shank or too rigid a shoe to start with, both of which might stop you getting right onto the platform of the shoe.   Buy ribbons (and elastic, if suggested), but don’t sew them on until your teacher has seen your shoes.

I’d suggest trying as many different makes/style as possible, so you can compare - if you like a pair and are getting up onto pointe easily, there’s nothing wrong with saying you have other appointments and asking the fitter to write down the shoe, style, make and size, and going back to get it.  Whichever pair you buy, buy the same padding that you are given to try at the fitting, because the shoes will fit differently with different padding.

Good luck, and have fun!

Got it in 2 today - after only one coffee! ☕️

1 hour ago, FlexyNexy said:

Thank you Anna, I have reminded her of this and of all transferable skills she has. She is brilliant young woman and I am very pround of her for being able to talk to me openly about all her struggles. This is for me the most important thing.

Sounds like she has a wonderful support system at home too, so you should be proud of yourself. ♥️

One thing I forgot to say earlier is to tell her that all her hard work is definitely NOT “for nothing” - her commitment and dedication to ballet will have benefits, and have given her transferable skills, regardless of what she does next.  

12 minutes ago, FlexyNexy said:

I thought my post would be suitable under this heading. My DD has graduated vocational school just in the middle of pandemic, secured contracts overseas but due to embassies being closed, we had to pass these opportunities. I do not know how, but she has found strength and continued to train this year in pre-professional programme/ junior company, but I think she is very tired of this cycle. She seems to be only getting into ‘companies’ which are subsidised financially by parents in exchange for dancing opportunities. She is frustrated that she is not going to be paid and feels the pressure she is giving on us. During our last call she said she fell out of love of ballet and all this hard work came to “nothing”. I want to support her, but I also do not want to feed her with encouragement to continue if this is making her depressed. Many of her peers have flown this month to join cruises, but this is not her “cup of tea”. Her mood is very down, she does not even know what she would like to do after ballet so I suggested just to come home and take little time out. We are stuck and also in a motion to set plan B.

Bless her, it’s hard enough to get a paid contract normally, without this seemingly never-ending pandemic, isn’t it. 😔 How much longer has she got until her year finishes, Flexynexy?  Could she come home for a short break and then finish the year, so the hard work and fees aren’t wasted? 

I have no idea how many, if any, vacancies there might be, but there are a few cruise ships that have ballet as part of the onboard entertainment; it’s definitely not all musical theatre/jazz.  Or how would she feel about teaching? 

Great news, @Kendie76! Congratulations to your dd. 👏🏻👏🏻

1 hour ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Our post is still badly affected by the pandemic - I got something 3 weeks after it was posted last week!

Same. 😕 Our poor posties seem do be delivering every other day, with a parcel delivery once or twice a week.  They’ve been delivering on Sundays too, presumably to try to clear the backlog! 

I wonder why schools and colleges aren’t emailing results, with a follow-up letter?

Hi, startedat17.   I know in your other thread you said you want to take RAD ballet exams, and that you have one private lesson a week.  People suggested joining group classes in person or online, which is a great idea for a teenage beginner/improver, and something that teenagers usually do as a hobby, alongside school or college.

However, it’s quite a leap from 2-3 classes a week alongside school/college to trying to copy the life of a full-time ballet student, on your own, without ballet teachers, academic teachers, fitness trainers, pas de deux partners and so on.  

Upper School students will have undoubtedly been dancing for 10-13 years, are aiming to be professional ballet dancers, have rock-solid advanced ballet technique absolutely ingrained into their bodies, have the necessary physique, strength and stamina to be dancing for 4-6 hours a day, and at the same time are studying towards A Levels/a Level 6 Diploma/A Degree.  

Without wishing to be unkind, I’m wondering how you hope to do this on your own, and realistically, what are you aiming for?  
 

If I remember, dd certainly listed her ballet and music exams on the UCAS website; some were already in dropdown lists with the relevant points attached, others had to be entered as free text (the grades and points are available on the RAD website).  

Her Advanced 2, along with County Youth Choir, she put on the end of her personal statement and noted that the Advanced 2 is equivalent to a Level 4 Diploma.   
 

She got offers from all her chosen universities (4 RG and Oxbridge) and her ballet was brought up at her Oxbridge interview, so although the UCAS points may or may not be accepted, having them from extra curricular exams like ballet and music certainly makes for a well-rounded candidate - and proves that Unis do read Personal Statements! 

Would you be living/moving abroad too, Lena? I’m just thinking that it’s hard enough to have a child in full-time ballet training in your own country of residence (in cases of illness/injury/homesickness), without having to get on a plane to get to your child.  

I only know of a couple of people whose children trained abroad and that was at 16+.  

Hi Lena, and welcome from me too.  It absolutely is possible to get into a good Upper School without having been away from 11.  In some cases I think it’s a better idea; particularly if a child is extremely academic, isn’t ready to board at 11, or loves dance but isn’t wanting to focus purely on ballet.  It also allows dancers to go through puberty without the risk of being assessed out, and above all, it makes it much easier for a teenager to change his or her mind about whether ballet is the be-all and end-all.

What your dd will need though is *very high quality* local training and enough dance/training hours to keep her training and technique but also stamina at the same level as children at full-time ballet school.  Even with dancing most weekday evenings locally, plus Central Preps/Pre-Seniors and Tring CBA, going away to full-time training at 16 was still such a shock to the system for my dd.  The girls who had boarded even just for years 10 and 11 fared better.  So applying in Year 9 for Years 10 and 11 full time might be a good option for your dd, partly to see how she compares with other girls her age (and of course, good Associate schemes, selective summer schools and so on are all helpful for this).

As Valentina says, it’s not easy but it’s definitely possible. 

I wonder if @startedat17means White Lodge?

6 minutes ago, Squawk020 said:

A note on the pension issue. I don’t want to use his pension, but he wants to take out a lot of money so in 5/6 years he can buy a house but this means I am not able to access any funding, as withdrawing his pension increases our income to above the limit for funding

To be honest, with or without means-tested funding for 6th form, there’s still a lot of money to find, as Jane says.  

I really think you need to speak to - or email - your ballet techers to see whether think you have the potential, before worrying about funding. 

Hello Squawk, and welcome from me too.  As a Mum, I can absolutely understand why your Dad doesn’t want to use his pension; I expect he’s worked hard for a long time to build up his pension and it’s his (and your Mum’s) security for the future.  Even if you get into Elmhurst or any other upper school, the chances of making it through all three years without being injured, assessed out, or even changing your mind, then getting a paid contract as a ballet dancer are absolutely tiny, so even the most talented dancer with the right physique and facility (turnout) needs a “Plan B.”

If your family invests all its money and resources into ballet and you get injured, that leaves you in a very difficult position for whatever comes next.  

To have a chance of getting into Elmhurst 6th form, you really will need to be dancing at around Advanced 1 Level, so you have a lot of catching up to do to be audition-ready.  Most girls auditioning will either already be at a full-time ballet school, or will have been at a good, competitive Associate scheme, or have a private coach, or both.  They will probably have been en pointe for 4 or 5 years too.  There will be a LOT of extremely talented dancers from the UK and overseas.  

Have your teachers ever indicated that you have the potential to audition for full-time upper schools?  Do students from your dance school go onto full time training, or do Associates?  When you say you don’t look like a typical dancer, is this something you’ve spoken to your teachers about?  

If you speak to your dance teachers and they think you’d be successful at getting a place at upper school, would your parents be willing to hear that from your teachers and let you apply, do you think?

Hello ba11erina, and welcome to the forum. ☺️ I’m really glad you have realised that being honest on application forms is a much better approach, because if you got a place - or a university place, or job, in future - without being honest about any physical or mental health problems, they won’t be able to support you properly if they don’t know the whole situation.  

It’s great that you’re having therapy while going through the audition process. Have you talked about a “Plan B”, should you not be succesful this time - or even if you are successful, but you find that full-time training exacerbates your ED and you have to stop? I think it’s vitally important to have a backup plan, because even for the strongest and healthiest dancer, injury or illness can happen and they find they have to change their plans.  

Wishing you lots of luck with your auditions.