Pups_mum

This of course is one of the major flaws with the idea. A level maths is hard even for those who have done well at GCSE and want to do it, so it would be ridiculous to attempt to make everyone do it. But there will still be people who want/need to study maths to that level so an A level equivalent will still be needed - unless a lot of undergraduate STEM courses are also to be completely redesigned as well that is. So there would need to be at least 2 courses for 16-18 year olds which would be a massive increase in workload for teachers in a subject that is already a shortage specialty. Same is probably true of English. There is a reasonable argument that some pupils going down science related routes but not taking A level maths would benefit from doing extra maths, but guess what, that already exists, in the form of Core Maths! No need to reinvent the wheel. We have an issue with numeracy and literacy in this country for sure, but making those who are struggling continue to study those subjects for longer is not the way to fix it. Do more of the same and you'll get more of the same. Any changes to the teaching of those subjects need to be made a long way before 16, probably before 11. But I will get off my soapbox as it's nothing to do with ballet. I don't think vocational school sixth formers need to worry about compulsory maths and english being added to their workload any time in the foreseeable future though.

Yes, I wouldn't lose any sleep over this.There are numerous large flaws in the idea. Never mind vocational schools, it's completely unworkable in most regular state schools. Aside from anything else, there's already a nationwide shortage of teachers and I doubt many English and Maths teachers have the capacity in their job plans to take on all these extrs classes.So I'm not sure where he thinks all these extra teachers are miraculously going to appear from. Besides which, I wouldn't view anything that Mr Sunak and co come up with right now as anything other than ideas that they think will appeal to wavering Tory voters, and taking those lazy good for nothing young people in hand and making them study proper subjects instead of that namby pamby stuff they do now is an idea that appeals to a certain demographic I'm sure. We'll quite possibly have more than one change of government in the time in which this idea is mant to come to fruition so I will be surprised if it ever gets of the ground.

I was thinking about this thread this week when we had a feedback call with my son's sports coach from the talent development pathway he is on. He has (as far as the sport is concerned) a significant physical deficiency that can't be changed - basically he is too short to make it to the very highest level, no matter what else he does. But that's always been treated fairly. No false hopes, and no disparaging comments either. We discussed his strengths and weaknesses candidly. No platitudes and the coach is definitely not "soft" but she also pointed out what he's achieved, where he is improved and what other areas need work to further compensate for his lack of height. There are kids on the pathway that are probably destined for the Olympics in due course. My son is not one of them and he knows it, but he has never felt that he is just there to make up the numbers, there's a genuine desire to make him the best player he can be even if it's not the national team. There isn't just one end game and nothing else matters. After getting his feedback he has decided to attend this year's trials (everyone had to try out again every year, nobody automatically progresses) but I know if he is not successful they'll offer advice on what he should be doing instead and he gets the option of coming back to a few sessions later in the year so they can review their decision if he wants. The experience has been radically different compared to my DD's experiences in the dance world. I know we are lucky to be in a good system but also to have excellent individuals locally. Junior sport is not without its problems and there are bad experiences in all fields. But my son's experience shows it can be done. Issues with physique can be handled candidly but sensitively. It is possible to develop young people without perfect physiques and to show them alternative paths without making them feel like they have been thrown on the scrap heap. These issues can be discussed honestly without being unkind. If (at least some) sport can do it, surely ballet should be able to as well?

There are, without doubt, similarities in sport, though in my personal experience, I do believe the 2 sports that I am involved in are now taking Safeguarding and the welfare of young people far more seriously than in the past. And it is a difficult line to walk because any young athlete/musician/artist etc does have to be committed and work very hard and you can't get away from that. But i do believe there are ways to achieve that without inflicting the type of damage we're talking about here. But I think there are 2 things that set dance apart that make it a particularly toxic environment, even more so than sport. 1) Regulation. Or rather lack of. Sports all have a national regulatory body with, in my experience at least, increasing openness and accountability. My son has been playing his sport at a fairly high level this year and the process for selection for the programme is on is dowloadable from the national body website, along with clear information about what will be expected of him, and us, and what we can expect from them. Plus links to their Safeguarding and complaints policies, instructions of what to do if you're worried or unhappy and so on. Now I haven't had to test what would happen if I did complain and I guess it's possibly all just for show, but I don't get that feeling, and at least their is a clearly defined process and someone overseeing standards etc. Of course there will still be bad people in any organisation and unsuitable coaches etc, but it feels very different to the dance world where there is basically no accountability, no effective means of independent review or whistleblowing and everything is shrouded in secrecy. 2) Boarding. Very little elite junior sports training happens in a residential setting, at least until post 16 or post 18, but it's the default setting in ballet. There is mountains of evidence of the potential harm that "normal" boarding schools can cause children, particularly at a young age. So here we have the double whammy of the downsides of boarding plus the downsides of elite training and I suspect the harm is even more than the sum of the parts. I read an interesting article some years ago - I can't remember where unfortunately- on the general topic of well being in teenagers. It basically said that the typical young person's life has 3 main "domains" - home, school and hobbies. The author believed that if relationships were good and the young person was happy in all 3 domains obviously that is best, but if one is difficult they can still thrive if there is support in the other 2 eg a child being bullied at school is less likely to be adversely affected in the long term if they have a happy home life and supportive friends and adults in say a sports team or youth club. But the poorer the quality of support in the other 2, the greater harm the toxic domain can do. That makes a certain amount of sense to me, and goes some way to explaining just why residential training can be so damaging. For big chunks of the year all 3 domains are the same place and there is no escape. With the exception of music schools, which of course have also come in for criticism, I can't think of any circumstances in this country where this happens to this degree. I'm not sure what the answer is to be honest, but the older I get the more convinced I am that full time residential training from 11 is harmful to most children.

Agree this is just another part of the assault on the arts and other "non core" subjects by current goverment educational policy. Don't get me started on he damage that the EBacc is doing to the same fields im secondary schools, whilst purporting to promote a broad based education. 🙄 Both my husband and I work in STEM fields so I am absolutely in favour of improving teaching and opportunities in those subjects - but it shouldn't be at the cost of losing other subjects. Not every individual has the same interests and abilities and you just can't squash everyone into the same box. For the well being of both individuals and wider society there must be a range of options. If we've reached point where education is seen only as a means to get a job and the value of a degree is judged only on the earning potential it generates then the country really is doomed.

No, exactly, they may not. Which is why it is the teacher's responsibility to be clear and use age appropriate techniques that don't require small children to be able to interpret the intent. The intent is almost irrelevant if harm is being done in fact. Obviously a teacher who deliberately instills fear into a child is a worse human being than one who does it inadvertently due to lack of skill or experience but from the child's perspective the outcome is the same. If negative emotions, beliefs and behaviours are being developed it doesn't matter whether the teacher meant it or not, the damage is the same. And it is the teacher's responsibility to assess the effects of their methods, reflect on their practice and change if necessary, not the small child's to be able to rationalise adult behaviours.

@DVDfan has very eloquently expressed what I wanted to say, so I won't repeat it. But I agree, this would be a huge red flag for me, and possibly the most concerning thing you have described OP. There are lots of things in your posts which if taken in isolation might not be too bad if everything else was fine and dandy, but when added together paint quite a concerning picture. But for me, a young child learning to accept that this style of teaching is not only acceptable but actually necessary would be enough, on its own, to make me take my child elsewhere. We are all on this forum because we love dance and think it is important, but we need to remember that it it is something which is supposed to enhance people's lives and it actually isn't always worth the price that some teachers, schools, companies etc expect dancers to pay in terms of their physical and mental health. And the kind of behaviours that do that damage unfortunately can and do start at a very early age. As I said upthread, I'm not a dance teacher but I do coach a sport to children over quite a wide age and ability range so there are some parallels. It's competitive so of course the kids and I like it when they win. But I am acutely aware of how their early life experiences in a sport or other competitive environment can affect them. Whilst I am obviously there to teach them the sport I think my main role is actually to contribute to their development as happy, healthy active young people, and the type of behaviour and language I use is key to that. Nobody likes to rock the boat so I do understand your reticence to move OP, especially if your DD seems happy. But she is a small child, she doesn't have the cognitive ability or experience to make these kind of judgements yet.There are probably lots of things that would make her happy which you as a parent know are not really good for her and so don't allow to happen. The fact you have started this thread suggests to me that you know a lot of what you have described is not ok and I would urge you not to ignore those niggles. Lots of us on here who have been around the dance world and indeed other youth sports and activities for a long time recognise the types of behaviour you are describing and I think we are all giving you more or less the same advice. There's a reason for that. This will not get better and in fact is likely to become more problematic as your DD gets older. And it will get even harder for you to move as time goes on. If that little inner voice is saying "this isn't right" - which it sounds like it is - then listen to it. It's much easier to change things at this age than with an older child.

I couldn't agree more. Competitions have their place. They provide performance opportunities, especially if you don't live somewhere with easily accessible youth companies and so on. There are also lots of transferable skills and life lessons that come from competing and being part of a team in anything. So if approached correctly I think there's a lot that can be gained from dance competitions. Not to mention fun. Last time my now grown up DD was home we sat for an evening and laughed til we had tears running down our faces recounting stories of her days dancing in festivals. Interestingly, though she won plenty of trophies and medals over the years, the memories that brought the most pleasure were almost all related to either things that went comically wrong, or triumphs over adversity rather than winning per se. But the competition must be your servant not your master. There's a difference between schools that do competitions and schools that are totally competition focused. When my DD first started doing festivals her teacher said something like "I'm teaching you to dance, not teaching you dances. We're doing this so you can learn, not so you can win". OP, I get the impression that that is not the ethos at the school you are describing. To be honest, I think there are quite a few red flags there and from what you're saying it doesn't sound like a particularly healthy environment to me and I would be looking elsewhere. Oh, and shouting is inevitable from time to time maybe, but should not be a regular feature of classes. I'm not a dance teacher but I coach a sport, from preschoolers up to young adults and whilst am not going to claim I never raise my voice it's largely reserved for occasions when someone does something potentially dangerous or when a group is over excited and noisy and I need shout to be heard and bring the focus back.(Though I'm actually more likely to use a whistle in the latter circumstances- not appropriate for a dance class I suppose though!) But I never shout in a scolding/intimidating way. There are much more effective ways to correct an individual or control a group and I would have significant reservations about the training and skill level of any teacher/coach who resorted to shouting at students on a regular basis.

Be careful of conflating correlation with causation @dance5678 As @MissEmily so rightly points out there are many factors why particular schools may have a lot of JAs and it isn't necessarily because the teachers there are "better" . Aside from anything else, it must be a fairly big school that even has 12 pupils who want to be JAs and simply having a bigger pool of pupils will make a difference. It's easy to see those numbers and assume the studio is crammed with such pupils, but how many do they have who are unsuccessful or don't audition? And in locations where there are plenty of schools people tend to gravitate to ones with a particular style, so you'll not uncommonly get a school that "collects" the ballet enthusiasts, another where all the best tappers go and so on. Not that its a bad thing to go to a ballet focused school if you are a ballet focused child of course and if you move for that reason then fair enough, but personally, unless you are unhappy with your current school I wouldn't move just to try to boost chances of getting into JAs. Aside from the fact that a lot of it depends on physical characteristics so a change of teacher wont necessarily make any difference anyway, at this age in particular there is a lot to be said for learning a range of styles and being with friends in a happy environment. As you will see written here many, many times, it's the journey that matters. The probability of any young dancer, even those who get into JAs and subsequently full time training, having a lasting career as a professional ballet dancer is absolutely tiny, so it is crucial that they are happy and fulfilled along their dancing journey. So I'd say move if you think your DD would be happier in a different school, and don't if not.

Indeed @balletbean My DD has her own school and freelances at a couple of others - she's currently doing maternity cover for a friend too. But she still needs a job in a cafe as well. After a degree and dance teaching qualifications it's tough to be working so hard for so little though as she says, she is at least still working in the field that she loves, unlike many of her peers. And yes, she does a lot of unpaid work like making costumes, and overlooks unpaid bills from families she knows are struggling. She's just done some free exam preparation classes because she knows that a substantial number of parents just can't afford extras now. She worked for nothing and a "mystery benefactor" 😉 covered the hall hire. I think it's easy to get a bit of a skewed view of the dance world on here. Virtually everyone on this forum has a child who is "serious" about dance in a variety of ways and most of us accept that that comes at a price. We are all used to paying for lots of lessons, Associate schemes, Summer Schools, shoes, costumes and so on, so it is easy to forget that that is not the case with the majority of pupils in most schools. Most teachers depend on the "once a weekers" for the majority of their income, and those parents compare the costs to their children's other hobbies, like Brownies or sports that are run by volunteers, not professional teachers who are trying to earn a living. Running costs are sky rocketing but a lot of parents simply can't afford to pay class fees that truly reflect the increasing costs. It's definitely a hard time to be earning your living providing something which for the majority is a luxury.

Yes, I have also seen death in sections younger than E or F. I remember seeing a Titanic piece that had children who can't have been more than 7 or 8 in it. It was very good technically but I didn't enjoy it at all. And that was at least 15 years ago, so not just a recent thing. I've also seen various duets that portray some kind of parent/child related tragedy that have included a very young dancer, and themes like Chernobyl used for dances that leave me uncomfortable. I know the ability to portray negative emotions is important, it's not all about being smiley, but I think some themes are inappropriate for entertainment or at least not until the oldest age groups. I possible am just getting a bit old and miserable but I like to see little ones in pretty dresses or animal costumes, not skimpy leotards or portraying horror characters. There's a school near us that has a long standing Baby or Pre Baby troupe of kittens that makes me smile every single time no matter how many times I see it. That's my kind of thing, even if it is old fashioned!

I agree that "old fashioned" is good at the younger age group. Fairy tales, well known children's book or film characters, animal characters etc are all good. I have a particular bugbear about miserable character dances in general, but particularly for little children who, in my humble opinion, should always do happy dances! One of my favourite ever dances my DD did was a character duet with an older student to the folk song Dance to Your Daddy which was really fun. And definitely no death. I have sometimes sat through some sections in festivals where almost every dance includes death or some kind of disaster and I think it's horrible.

I can see both sides. As a parent, I wouldn't want to pay for a lot of lessons which my child could not attend through no fault of her own, so I can understand that. However, my DD is now a teacher, and I can understand the problem something like this would cause for her. Her running costs (studio hire, fuel bills etc) have increased by about 30% over the last year and she has tried to avoid passing any more of that on to her pupils than she absolutelyhas to, so losing half a terms fees would be significant. If it was a class that was at capacity then the options would really need to be for the parent to pay to hold the place, or for the child to leave so that the place could be taken by someone else. Obviously you can't take on a new pupil to fill the gap and then tell them that they can't return in September because the original pupil is now better. A big, long established school might be able to absorb the loss more easily I guess, but if my DD and many of her friends are anything to go by, currently soaring costs are putting a lot of teachers under significant pressure financially and walking the tightrope between being sensitive to parents' situations and keeping fees down so you don't lose pupils, whilst still getting enough income to pay the bills can be very difficult. I used to grumble about costs on occasion, just like any ballet mum I guess, but now DD is on the other side of the fence I understand a lot more about the costs of running a school and how things like non payers and late payments impact. I know that my DD would be very sympathetic to a situation like this and she probably would waive the charges, but right now it would make things even more difficult for her than the cost of living crisis already is. Not every teacher is making a lot of money currently, that's for sure.

People do and say strange things for all kinds of reasons. It's a bit like the student who says they aren't revising for an exam then get the top mark. Maybe they are trying to dissuade others from working hard so they look better, maybe they want to impress people by letting everyone think that they achieved their result by sheer brilliance but more often I suspect it's because they are under pressure - maybe they have always been top before - and are scared of failing, so are putting their explanations in in advance. I think you get this kind of thing in all kinds of competitive situations. I'm currently seeing similar behaviour around University admissions amongst my youngest's peer group and their parents. Of course they don't really want to go to Oxford anyway, it's just a nice day out. And sometimes it's genuine. Sometimes parents/children are unsure. They don't think they want a particular school but feel they should look. Or they want to see where their child sits in the great scheme of things. Particularly if you're from somewhere where your child is a big fish in a small pond it can be really hard to know whether they really do have potential or not. Or there is some kind of external pressure that is hard to resist. I experienced this with one of my sons and his sport. He was invited to the trials for a high level training programme. I really couldn't see how we could make it work, given the location, times, our other commitments etc but only a few even got asked to trials and I didn't want to be the big bad mother who didn't support her child. So we went, and all the time I was genuinely hoping he wasn't picked. It was a risk, but it paid off. He got down to the last 8 for 4 places so could go home with his head held high and I breathed a sigh of relief. There will be parents at vocational school auditions feeling the same I am sure. There are often lots of complicated emotions going on. But in the end, it doesn't really matter what other people are doing anyway. Best to just focus on showing yourself at your best, and then what will be will be. I had this conversation with my youngest re University only this week, pointing out that even if it were possible to "fool" admissions tutors, who would want to be on a course where they are not a good fit anyway? Imagine the strain of trying to keep up for years if you didn't genuinely have the attributes that are required. There is no value in being anything other than your authentic self in my opinion. Game playing rarely pays off long term.

No personal experience of RBS but regarding vocational training in general, I would say the most important thing is to understand how few children "succeed" - at least if you measure success in terms of paid contracts in classical companies anyway. Even those who appear to "have it all" at this stage and are offered places at the top schools arestatistically very unlikely to make it all the way through vocational training and work as a professional ballet dancer. Much has previously been written regarding the tiny number of the original WL year 7 cohorts who have made it as far as the Upper School in recent years. I have no desire to reopen the debate on possible reasons for this, but the figures themselves are sobering reading. It's a big chunk of childhood and the chances of reaching the ultimate goal are slim. If you want your eyes wide open I would say these are the most important things to consider, not the state of the dormitories. It is crucial that the journey is enjoyable in it's own right, not seen as something that has to be endured on the way to reaching the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Everyone is different. Some children love their time at vocational school of course, but if you read old posts on here you will find many stories of those who had very negative experiences. There's also your wider family to consider - the financial impact, effects on other children etc. It is more of a strain for some families and others, and it is perfectly reasonable to factor those things in. It's not easy. The decision whether to send an 11 year old to boarding school of any kind is tricky, without the added pressure of the ballet world. If your DC does go, be sure that they understand, as much as an 11 year old can, the realities of longer term prospects, and be sure to keep the door to home fully open. There are so many stories of unhappy children, and their parents, sticking it out at vocational schools because they felt guilty that they would be walking away from an opportunity that so many others have been denied, or those who were afraid to raise issues because of fears of being overlooked for future opportunities (all schools, not specifically RBS. ) Remember the decision isn't irreversible. If it doesn't work out as you hoped they can come home. Equally, full time training at 11 isn't the only way forwards. Above all, be sure that being there, in the moment, is worth it and is making your DC happy. And that they - and you - are happy with the other types of work that trained dancers tend to get. There are lots of other good potential outcomes but don't focus on the dream of a classical career. Don't suffer now because of the dreams of future glory.