drdance

While I recommend the physiotherapist screening, and the body composition screening this can be carried out by a doctor or any 1/2 decent physiotherapist, dance or not. A lot of the other tests that are done at this screening won't tell you much as a one off test, particularly if you're looking at entering ballet schools, because they are really designed to be done as part of a repeated screening programme to allow comparisons ie pre-entry, after 6 months, after each academic year or in a company, pre-season/min-season etc. Any comparisons from a one off screen of functional elements like strength, power, fitness can be made with other dancers of a similar age, or dance style (to provide an 'average' or what is known as the 'norm') but I'd recommend caution here unless one knows exactly how many dancers' results make up the 'average' to which you're being compared to - the higher the number is the more reliable it is. Also, I imagine that the 'normal' values will be based on contemporary dancers either from Laban centre or from any of the CAT schemes that Laban have been testing over the last few years (I don't know if they've tested the dancers at the CAT at Northern Ballet). Finally - if you look at the DVD packages that they offer there is a ballet-specific fitness test - I designed, choreographed and tested this as part of my PhD

I'm not sure how far to trust the anatomy side of things but his ballet credentials are good. His CV is here http://www.esdu.org/admin/js/filemanager/files/jurycv/cv-andrew-greenwood.pdf

I don't know how they select from photos - seems very strange to me, but then they have a set number of places and they must have thousands of applications, so from all of those applications there must be at least 100 that show good physique and line in the photos. After that it just must be a case of some get places, some don't. My pupil who's now at WL didn't get into the summer school when she was a JA!

As for grade work - I had a pupil (now at WL) who was only in RAD grade 1 when she joined JAs in year 4. She skipped grade 2 and then took an exam a year and was in grade 5 RAD and Inter foundation RAD when she went away to WL. So grades don't really matter. In fact I know that RBS will spend considerable time with all of the children accepted going over the very basics of ballet technique in a lot of detail. What they look for, at least in JA and WL auditions is potential, physique, an innate love of dance and if already trained, they would rather kids had a 'generic' good technique and natural performance, rather than be able to do a lot of things but perhaps with less than good technique or with particularly stylised ways of moving/performing. I don't know if that makes sense - you know how sometimes you get kids who are very able but perform their ballet in a very particular way?, sometimes festivals can bring this out of kids! Anyway the RBS tend to prefer kids who are 'purer' in their technique and performance. I hope that helps!

Good luck everyone, the production looks fantastic!

Apologies Anjuli for misunderstanding your comment - as I said I was unsure of what you meant and I'm afraid it seems I was right there! As you said, "the guardians of the trenches are often unreceptive" and as a result of this I do find myself regularly defending either my dance teaching or science/healthcare credentials. I apologise for immediately 'jumping' down that path. Thanks NL and RK - I hope that I am in a fairly unique position as both a dance teacher and a GSR and I love to be able to help others if possible; but I certainly don't profess to be an oracle, I'm always keen to learn more...I'll be interested to hear what the gynae has to say on this topic

Because I'm not quite sure what is meant by that comment, and because I appreciate that people want reassurance that someone posting information on these forums is reliable, I will attempt to respond to the points made. If anyone would like my website address - it has more details of my training and dance experience - please PM me and I'll happily give you the details :-) I agree, Anjuli, in that I think you are inferring that it's all well and good having knowledge but it's how you use it that matters (?) . Knowledge is power - but only if one uses that knowledge appropriately. But for me, applying science to dance is not a daunting task; the relationship between how the human body works at its best cannot be separated from dance training/performance. Even from a young age it fascinated me and it has helped me explain things to my pupils in the dance studio, as well as advise countless students (and parents!). Indeed - and I do relate my knowledge to training in the dance studio, on a regular basis, and I intend to for the forseeable future. As I wrote in an earlier post, it is my passion that dance training becomes more effective and better for dancers' long term health. I trained at one of the conservatoire for dance and drama colleges in London following very good training at home, and then trained in the studio to Advanced 2 level with 2 ISTD examiners, and an RAD examiner, while completing my academic studies. I have been teaching for 12 years in dance schools, while completing my academic studies. I have a pupil at the Royal Ballet School as well as having put countless pupils through RAD and ISTD examinations, and have a 100% pass rate to my name. I set up a supplementary dance training scheme a year ago and have had many positive comments from parents, and dance teaching colleagues about that scheme. I also have a PGCE and teach in a state secondary school (science and dance to A-level).

NanaLily: I am a fully qualified and insured Graduate Sports Rehabilitator (GSR) which is regulated by the British Association of Sports Rehabilitators and Trainers (BASRaT - see www.basrat.org/role.asp for more details). This is the equivalent of the American Certified Athletic Trainer (ATC - www.nata.org). The BASRaT website states that "A Graduate Sport Rehabilitator (GSR) is a graduate level autonomous healthcare practitioner specialising in musculoskeletal management, exercise based rehabilitation and fitness." Edited to add: So to answer the question "are you of a medical background?" The answer is No as I am not a physician, nurse or medic. However, physiotherapists, osteopaths, nutritionists, chiropractors are not technically of a medical background either. All, including GSRs, are allied healthcare professionals.

As for growth, the general consensus is that the growth spurts stop at around 2 years after the onset of menstruation. But girls don't actually stop growing until late teens/early twenties and this does depend largely on the individual.

Hi Spannerandpony - I don't mind you asking at all! I have a degree in sports rehabilitation and injury prevention (1st class) and a PhD in dance specific exercise physiology during which I worked with a couple of professional ballet companies and a vocational school (which I obviously can't name!) - my main area of research was how different elements of fitness (which included body composition, as well as stamina, flexibility, strength, power and endurance affect injury and performance in classical ballet dancers. My main area of interest now (it's a bit of a passion, actually!) is the safe and effective training of vocational dance students, particularly in the 11-16 age group.

Skinfold testing involves using metal callipers to measure the skin thickness at carefully measured/calculated sites in the body and using these measurements with very complicated equations to calculate body fat percentage. It is a technique carried out by trained physiologists and other healthcare professionals and although there are videos on youtube etc I wouldn't recommend doing it without training in locating the anatomical landmarks as it can be painful if you pinch the wrong place with the callipers. You might be able to get your DD tested at the doctors or a good sports medicine clinic could maybe do it - I don't know if the vocational schools do it as part of their screenings, but it might be worth enquiring with the physio if you're concerned. There are other less reliable ways of measuring %BF at home, try this website http://www.army.mod.uk/armyineducation/resources/flash/PE/default.aspx but bear in mind that the results are estimates, and I don't know how suitable it is for use with children.

'Weight' per se as Anjuli quite correctly said, depends on muscles, and bones as well as fat. Incidentally, it is for this reason that BMI is not a good indicator of health in the physically active, as muscles weigh much more than fat.... using BMI a dancer may appear to be an 'ok' weight because of their strong well-developed muscles rather than their body fat, but if their body composition is measured accurately using skinfold testing or body fat analysis this gives a much more accurate picture. As for rules - actually there is a hard and fast rule regarding body fat. Anything lower than 13% is a red flag.

Body fat percentage is critical for oestrogen levels, which need to be a certain level to trigger menstruation. According to McArdle, Katch & Katch (2005) "Physically active women, particularly participants in the "low-weight" or "appearance sports", (e.g distance running, ballet, figure skating) increase their likelihood for one of three maladies: 1. Delayed onset of menstruation 2. Irregular menstrual cycle (oligomenorrhea) 3. Complete cessation of menses (From the book "Essentials of Exercise physiology".) They go onto say that as a group, ballet dancers exhibit a greater incidence of menstrual dysfunction and a higher average age at menarche (starting periods) than age-matched, non-dancers, and that this irregularity or absence of menses accelerates bone loss and increases the risk of bone injury. According to their text, some authors cite 17% body fat is the minimum needed for periods to begin, and 22% for sustain a normal cycle. However, they also say that this is not definitive; some with lower than 17% have normal periods, others with higher have abnormal periods! When working with professional ballet dancers, we measure body composition as part of fitness testing. Any females with a body fat percentage below 13% is referred to the physiotherapist and healthcare team to follow up. NB Growth continues until into the early twenties, on average.

As a teacher (science) in mainstream secondary schools as well as a dance teacher I can safely say that different schools have different opinions on homework. I agree with the comment that in year 7 homework may appear to be mundane but some schools see it as important training for later in the year (s). Having said that, some schools set it but don't mind if it's not actually done because parents expect homework to be set at least once a week, so the school sets it because they want to appease those parents (although I did find this to be the exception). Other schools have homework timetables, so that you know in advance when the homework will be set. If your DD's school has a homework timetable this might be useful. Something else to consider is that schools have a list of Gifted and Talented pupils, and often make concessions for these pupils. You could perhaps find out who the G&T co-ordinator is in your DD's school and explain that she has a particular talent for dancing, and has been offered a place with TCYB, and would the school make any concessions in this case? Another option, if you're really worried, might be to take a laptop in the car on the way and she can do a bit on the way to rehearsals!

Having searched the Dance UK practitioners register for the south west those who look the most useful for your situation seem to be Paris Payne (chartered physiotherapist) http://www.physioconditioning.com/, Jenny Wigram (Chartered physiotherapist) http://www.ashburtonphysio.co.uk/about.html, or Dr Roderick Jaques (physician) http://www.winfieldhospital.co.uk/treatments/physiotherapy/sports-injury-clinic.aspx

Osgood-schlatters disease at the knee (and Severs disease at the heel) is a direct result of bones growing rapidly ahead of, but being relatively weaker than, the surrounding soft tissue. The tendon that attaches the muscle to the bone at that point ends up pulling on the bone resulting in extra bone cells creating a lump that can be felt, and lots of inflammation. The whole aspect of teaching an adolecent dancer is a minefield once one scratches the surface, which is why having a good, knowledgeable teacher is so vital, especially if the dancer is training vocationally (at any establishment).

This is correct. The increase in oestrogen that causes the onset of menstruation also plays a big part in bone strength so the indication of the girls period indicates that the oestrogen level has increased and unless there is another medical condition at play, it would be right to therefore assume an increase in bone maturation. However, there are arguments among sports/dance science that intense training may cause physical maturation to be delayed. So while your average female may begin her periods around aged 11/12 this might be delayed in anyone doing intense physical training. I personally don't know much about this particular area so can't comment. But I do know that many late teenage/adult females who are very active and in an aesthetic sport/activity such as gymnastics, dance, ice skating etc have very low body fat which in turn reduces the level of oestrogen that is produced, resulting in oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea (irregular periods or absence of periods). This is also thought to result in a loss of bone density (which is why post menopausal women are more prone to osteoporosis). Many female dancers take the contraceptive pill to regulate their periods, and to try to guard against bone injury.

Jellybeans is totally right - OK so there might be kids in the competition doing pointe work very early but there's no need for it! What do they gain? The reason why overseas students get places at UK schools is down to the fact that so many of the worlds top dancers want to come to the UK to train. If we weren't doing anything right in this country then RBS/ENBS/Elmhurst/Central etc wouldn't have any British students at all! Having said that, I do believe that the training is different overseas - I'm not sure it's the intensity of it that is different, as UK training at vocational level is pretty intense. But I do feel that overseas dancers have a different appeal. Part of that is the British mentality, of course, as we suffer from 'tall poppy syndrome' (ie if I celebrate what I can do well others will hate me and try to cut me down). Because of this we don't ever quite generate the self-assured stage presence or confidence to shine when it counts.

I can't agree more - and have said words to that effect already on this thread - There really is NO rush, the longer a dancer takes to get strong the better. A delayed start to pointe just means they are more likely to be stronger and therefore more able to actually do things en pointe rather than totter and wobble around, as would a child who is younger or weaker.

I definitely do not think any child should begin pointe until they are ready however as Anjuli quite correctly pointed out, the human skeleton does not completely ossify until very late teens! While there is a difference between age 4 and age 11, I really don't think that there will be vast difference between age 10 and age 12. It's not like suddenly a girl turns 12 and overnight her bones have hardened up. It's a gradual process which is not complete until late teens. So the argument about skeletal maturity is kind of null and void here - HOWEVER what is more important is that the child has strength, control and maturity. There's certainly no rush! FYI bunions tend to be caused by a longer 1st toe, and 'fishing' or winging the foot en pointe. Stress fractures are just that; overuse with insufficient recovery (often compounded by a lack of oestrogen), tendonitis of every kind is also an overuse injury that will be related to inefficient biomechanics ie misalignment/poor technique subjected to repeated trauma. Most dance injuries are caused by faulty alignment, either very slight faulty alignment subjected to overuse with insufficient recovery or major, sudden faulty alignment such as falling, twisting or spraining.

Can you see the webpage at all?

There is a very good resource paper produced by the International Association of Dance Medicine and Science on this topic here: http://www.iadms.org/associations/2991/files/info/start_pointe.pdf

Definitely best to wait til after auditions etc because like others have said there really is no rush and I do know that vocational schools much prefer starting children on pointe without them having done it before. George Balanchine is known to have said, "there is no point putting a girl en Pointe unless she can do something when she is up there!".

It depends if you're going to vocational school in year 7. If so, don't start pointe work as the schools like to train pupils in pointe work from the beginning. If not, then 11 is ok if she's doing at least 2 ballet classes a week, and has good posture, strength and control. As she's a year 6 (?) JA she's probably fine to start pointe but it wouldn't hurt to double check with DD's JA teacher.

For anyone who can watch US television the series Breaking Pointe is a documentary following Ballet West in Salt Lake City. It's a great insight into the workings of a classical company! Further info http://www.cwtv.com/shows/breaking-pointe