drdance

@aurora3 no I didn’t say it’s impossible! Not at all - but don’t forget that people have different proportions of muscle fibers (type 1 vs type 2) which make them genetically predisposed to preferring certain ways of moving. Just like some people are better at sprinting than long distance running. 
 

I don’t believe that all classical ballet dancers have such muscles, and I also don’t believe they can all jump the same. But I am not alone among dance scientists in believing that ballet dancers don’t have a particular high jump compared to other athletic populations. A lot of the professional dancers look like they are jumping very high because their legs lift (like a split leap) but if you actually measure how far their torso moves it’s not as far as it seems. Optical illusions as it were!

On 24/07/2020 at 00:13, DD Driver said:

 

ProfDance, what exercise might be beneficial for the lengthening of muscles and what can improve a dancers jump?  I am sure that we can learn from high jumpers and basketball!

Your two questions will lead to two different outcomes. In my opinion it’s rare to have a form of exercise that gives an aesthetic of “long muscles” and a high jump. 
 

I don’t really feel equipped to answer your first question other than to say the following: You can’t make a muscle longer than it is, so all you can do is to reduce the muscle girth in order to give the look of being long. Exercise types where movements are low intensity, fluid and slow, like pilates, are often cited as “creating long muscles” because they don’t put sufficient demand on the muscle to increase or maintain muscle girth, but this has repercussions in terms of the amount of force or power a muscle (group) can generate.
 

In order to improve dancers jump we do need to look at the power training used in sports. Power is the combination of strength and speed, and is what is needed for explosive movements such as jumps, leaps, kicks etc. Power must be trained specifically so slow controlled exercise types won’t help here (in the same way you wouldn’t expect a tap dancer to suddenly be doing the rose adagio on pointe!) 

Plyometrics can be very effective especially if delivered by someone who knows and understands how it works (knowledge of the stretch-shortening cycle, optimum number of foot contacts to elicit a response, when best to put it into a session to avoid neuromuscular fatigue etc). 

@DD Driver Re the Instagram video - if I was her I would be asking her coach/trainer why all of that work was done on a wobble board/bosu ball. What is the rationale for doing that when the surfaces that she dances on are not like that? It’s like training to swim in the sea and then competing in a completely still pool. I thought ballet dancers were all about working “the right muscles” but training on an unstable surface is going to challenge all the muscles that don’t need to be challenged, whilst putting the dancer at much greater risk of injury. 
 

I’m sure you’re all possibly getting sick of my mantra now but - ask why! Why am I doing this? What do I want to achieve? Will this help me get to what I want to achieve? Are there safer/more effective ways of getting there?

I think with the argument regarding Pilates we should be mindful of why dancers do Pilates and why people think it isn't an effective training tool. It seems to me that the two things are not the same.

Pilates and similar exercise methods such as PBT, gyrotonic etc are fantastic for targeting individual muscles, supporting ballet technique and rehabilitation from injury. I am a fan of PBT especially, and have seen great benefits in my own students, particularly in their ballet technique. I 100% agree with Emma in that it helps dancers have more awareness of their muscles and therefore to engage them appropriately in a ballet class which ensures correct technique. From that perspective I think it is great, and definitely helps support correct posture, use of turnout, alignment etc in ballet. 
 

However, I also agree that these exercise methods do not provide enough stimulus to cause changes in force production, or to guard against muscular fatigue (a known contributor to injury). For these purposes, there must be a greater challenge and this is where more mainstream strength and conditioning approaches have value. Working against weight/ resistance, utilizing force, challenging the different energy systems of the body etc will have more benefit. This is why companies such as the Royal Ballet use gym based strength and conditioning alongside Pilates. @Emma northmore A large number of dance scientists DO observe and work with professionals - (hundreds if not thousands of research papers have been written using professional dancers as the subjects) however it is incredibly difficult to actually get in to some schools, companies and institutions! Perhaps if every company welcomed dance scientists in to watch, observe and question openly then there might be a better mutual understanding. After all, we do all want the same thing, I believe? 

As for whether an exercise methodology such as Pilates is SOLELY and DIRECTLY responsible for changing someone’s body shape - I find this hard to believe. I don’t doubt that many people have attributed changes in body shape to doing Pilates, HOWEVER I suspect that it may not specifically be the Pilates that has caused the change, but that by doing Pilates/PBT/gyrotonic, the dancer refines their technique, learns more efficient ways of moving and develops better movement economy so changes the way they are working in class, thus altering the recruitment of muscle fibres. 
 

2 hours ago, Peony said:

yes I did pick up that the studies were not in dancers and were in adults, some post menopausal but your statement referring to Pilates was general. They also didn’t appear to be of particularly high quality, With sample sizes of 25  etc they’re also unlikely to meet confidence intervals on their own, but there did appear to be a large number of studies showing the same thing. So it would suggest that Pilates does have an effect on strength. I didn’t find any studies in dancers or young people. Is there sufficient evidence either way? Why does it build strength in older adults and not younger ones? As I said, if the message is that it’s not the most effective way I can understand that but I honestly can’t see that it doesn’t build strength, it’s certainly not my personal experience

I think it’s all about starting point. If someone is completely sedentary, and has not done much exercise for a long time, then any form of training programme is likely to show some strength gains. But what Nico is getting at, I believe, is that there comes a point or threshold  where pilates no longer provides sufficient stimulus to elicit a strength-training response, and with a fairly active population such as dancers, it would be fairly easy to reach that threshold. Let’s not forget that Pilates as a training method was designed to rehabilitate injured dancers early in their recovery so it is designed to be fairly low demand and designed to help someone re-start training after a period of rest. 

As a side note for parents and anyone else interested in topics such as this, I agree with Niko’s advice about education and challenging myths etc. IADMS is a great place to start but also the science for dance educators group on Facebook is really good. It’s connected to IADMS and there are so many educated and informed people in that group that discussions are always interesting to follow. The wonderful thing is that everyone involved has the same ideal at heart - and that is to use science to improve how dancers are trained.
 

As a scientist as well as a dance teacher, I’m always looking to understand how and why things are the way they are, and I look for evidence or fact to help me understand. I love to learn and so I will always question why? Or how? Or what does ‘X’ mean? I believe that the most knowledgeable people on earth are those who keep striving to learn more, and who don’t just accept something because “that’s what I was told” or “that’s the way it is”. Science is what shapes our world. There is so much that we take for granted that only exists because someone was brave enough to say “I think this could be done a different way”, and for people to debate it, question it and sometimes agree that it’s ok to change how you approach something, especially if backed up by evidence. 
 

So, in realizing that I have gone off tangent slightly (for which I apologise, but only a little!) my challenge to you is to think like a scientist a bit more! Question, challenge, critically appraise everything. If something doesn’t make sense to you, ask or do research to seek answers. Nothing in dance training should be mysterious or archaic - if something sounds implausible or wrong, then ask for explanation or evidence. If you get conflicting explanations or evidence, seek out more until you have multiple sources saying the same thing / supporting each other. Be aware of second-hand or third-hand advice/evidence eg “I know someone who’s sisters fiancé danced with the Royal Ballet and they told me that they all have their hips removed so they have better turnout”.... (clearly nonsense to make a point!).

This forum is great, and it’s got a lot better at making sure that people looking for advice regarding injuries are always directed to the appropriate professionals before other well-meaning but unqualified folks jump in. Perhaps the same caution could be applied when parents or dancers are asking for advice regarding other physical or mental health related matters? 

11 minutes ago, Emma northmore said:

Hi Everyone, i don't often have time to look on here but feel compelled to jump in!!

Fact - I was short and "stocky". 

Fact - swimming and pilates gave me my career. Pilates lengthened my muscles to such an extent I even got to dance the "tall girl" dances at ENB!!

Fact - pilates must happen daily to alter genetics and be applied correctly with a lengthening sense in all you do.

(Swimming is the safest and most effective way to tone everywhere.)

Fact - Lisa Howell and Paris Opera are amazing.

 

Fact -There is always a chain reaction of muscles that can create technical issues. Lets' remember the thighs are the easiest muscle to engage and so , if a dancer is not taught to mentally and physically activate the correct muscles, then the thighs will always over work!! If you use your metatarsals correctly and activate the use of the hamstring by energising the movements from the back of leg - then you wont over engage the thighs. And so yes, scrunching toes = weight back = thighs over working because it prevents the workload getting to the hamstrings.But the dancer MUST ask those hamstrings to activate or the thighs always will. Remember neural pathways take a long time to correct.....

Naturally some dancers have larger muscle groups than others but in every company they have all types of physiques. Darcy/ Marienella - not string beans but athletes. Often the string beans get really injured but companies like them for particular works. They need a Clara/sylph/cygent but also a Queen of hearts or Myrtha. Schools will look for gifts that will outweigh the negatives - a short neck but awesome legs will get in. A more athletic type body will get in if they have the most stunning musicality or balon. If there is a feature that is of concern that isn't then countered by a raw talent/gift, then that's when dancers get turned away.

 

Dont focus on the negatives, spend the time enhancing their gifts too. 

 

To Sillysally - if she wants to be a contemporary dancer, I wouldn't get too hung up on it. Head to Rambert which is excellent or any other contemporary school. Your DD wont be happy trying to fit a mould she doesn't want to be. The ballet at these places is also excellent.

 

Fact - (DRDANCE) ANY dancer that has successfully worked for over 5 yrs in a main stream classical ballet company, (not 1yr in an unheard of co.) has far more technical and anatomical knowledge than any course could teach! 10/20 yrs on stage , working with your body and your injuries daily, provides an insight and depth of understanding of ballet and their bodies that just cant be taught. However, for those that declare themselves "professional" after a brief stint on stage - well yes I agree - they need the course!

 

 

 

I agree that any professional dancer who has worked with their body for that number of years has an incredible insight - but there are also a lot of ballet teachers (of all different backgrounds) who perpetuate things that simply aren’t true. My personal pet hate is “lift the leg from underneath”.

The scrunching toes comment from the video posted earlier relates to scrunching toes in a tendu, or extension en l’air, not to grip the floor. I agree that a dancer with their weight back may be gripping the floor with their toes but I’m still not sure how, anatomically, this leads to hypertrophy in the quads. But, as I said above, if someone can explain how this happens I’m keen to know. 

26 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

I had to break off, so couldn't complete my post earlier.  It is well known among dance teachers, that faulty technique can cause injury.  It can also cause bunching and overdevelopement of muscles.  

With respect, I am 100% certain that it is anatomically impossible for clawing of toes to cause the quadriceps muscles to hypertrophy. If someone can prove this otherwise, with scientific backing then I will have learned something new (which I am always keen to do). 
 

Faulty technique does indeed cause injury, we know this, I agree with that statement. I also agree that incorrect technique causes muscles to engage that are not the target muscles for a certain exercise, and can cause the aesthetic to change (classic example of failing to adequately turn out a leg in second position resulting in lateral thigh and TFL dominance, and pelvic tilt commonly known as “hip hiking”). 
 

However, ballet teachers (especially ones who are ex professional dancers who have never done an anatomy course in their life) often have very little accurate knowledge about how muscles work, and therefore the language used is often based on myth rather than truth, and is incorrect and detrimental. 
 

Words like “overdeveloped” and “bulky” versus “long and lean” make the first sound awful and the second desirable. However, as I said earlier, you have to ask WHAT DO YOU WANT THE MUSCLES TO DO! If you want force production, power, strength and performance, then you need strong muscles. In some people, strong muscles are big, regardless of whether they’re “using the right muscles” (never that simple) or have the “right” technique. 
 

It’s about time ballet teachers stopped perpetuating myths about long, lean, sylph like muscles and celebrated strength for what it is.

On 11/07/2020 at 16:14, Pas de Quatre said:

Paris Opera Ballet School coaching

 

On this video, right at the beginning, the teacher comments that it is important to stretch the toes when pointing to continue the line of the leg.  If they are "knuckled" it leads to overdeveloped thigh muscles.  Although it is in French, the explanation is quite clear. 

I apologise for shooting the messenger as it were, but there is NO WAY that this is possible!

3 hours ago, pointetheway said:

Hi Everyone,

 

Since the release of the horrific stories in Athlete A can I encourage you to speak out for anyone who has experienced the same in dancing or witnessed it.
 

I have a top UK journalist who wants to blow the lid off abuse in dance. Maybe now gymnasts have come forward we can do the same for the dance world too?  
 

If you wish to do this please email me and I can give you contact details.  The journalist in question has been instrumental in top British gymnasts coming forward. Everything shared is strictly confidential given the sensitivities of involving minors in some cases, but the journalist is really keen on investigating and would be happy to be pointed in the right direction. 
 

Let’s do this and put an end to future physical and emotional suffering and broken dreams. 
 

I hope you will feel confident enough to come forward.  Please send me a message and I can give you contact details in confidence. You can choose to remain anonymous.

 

Who knows we may even get dance regulated at last too!! 
 

I am a parent too. 

x

 

#westandtogether

#gymnastalliance

 

 

 

I think this is great - but it would HAVE to be anonymous, for the protection of the children and families involved. I do hope anyone with stories to tell will come forward because this has been going on for too long. While vocational schools and dance companies will no doubt be the high profile cases involved, I personally believe that the emotional and indirect physical abuse going on in part-time dance schools, especially competitive schools with very dangerous practices such as children wearing ankle weights, extreme stretching etc is WAY more widespread and needs calling out. 

6 hours ago, sillysally said:

Thanks fr all your response. 

drdance, to answer your question - we have received feedback from 2 schools about her thigh muscles that is why it has come onto our radar.  It probably isn't the only "flaw" but I personally thought it was dangerous and unnecessary to use a comment on her physique as feedback, generally as schools refuse to give feedback on technique post audition.  Especially when it was given as a negative comment with no constructive advice.

 

Wow. I realise it's very hard for me to say this when I'm not a parent of an aspiring vocational dancer but any school that gives feedback regarding the size of a dancers muscles is perhaps not a very supportive, forward-thinking school and if I was advising parents of a student of mine, I'd be VERY interested in discussing these comments with the schools, and finding out what their approach to safe dance practice was before recommending them to any other students. 

There has also been an ongoing investigation into British gymnastics recently. Sadly it seems like abuse was/is rife there too. 

I think we'd all be very naive to think that the ballet world was different. It's gone on for far too long but will it ever change? Who knows.....

Who is concerned about this? Her? You? Her teachers? Have you had feedback from vocational schools specifically citing her physique regarding why she isn't getting in?

Pixiewoo is right. Genetics is the most likely thing that will affect physique and response to training. My opinion (as a dance scientist) is that "long, lean muscles" (which seems to be the holy grail of ballet dancers) aren't the strongest of muscles. 

I seem to be saying this a lot at the moment but people need to know WHAT they want their body to be able to do, before worrying about how it looks or what training they should/shouldn't be doing. Once you've figured out the WHAT, the next question is WHY? If you can't answer that question convincingly then there's no reason to do something. People ask me lots of questions such as how can I get more flexible, how can I make my legs leaner, how can I make my pirouettes better etc. My first response is always "why? how will this help you as a dancer?"

Finally, I would always guard against saying ANYTHING about the size of a 15 year olds physique, especially their torso (breasts, stomach, hips), unless there is something wrong with their health. 

It’s very frustrating that one minute the advice is “Dance studios cannot open” and then “out of school clubs like ballet” are allowed but only in the school holidays?! 
 

One minute dance classes have been lumped in with gyms and fitness studios and then the next we’re glorified childcare! 

@Canary Yes growth plays a major part in flexibility. Muscles, ligaments and bones all grow at slightly different rates so in the middle of the adolescent growth spurts, muscles effectively become shorter (as they grow after the bones usually). All the sensors around our bodies that tell us where parts are in relation to each other (proprioception) are affected by the growth spurt so an adolescent may feel like their arm/leg/foot is in line or in the right place when it’s not. 
 

The approach to training adolescents is a particular area of interest for me! Too many dancers, teachers, choreographers (and parents, I don’t doubt) are unaware of quite how puberty affects the body and how training should be modified as a result. 

Hi DD Driver - thank you for your input. At the moment this is a pilot study to figure out if it's worth doing a full scientific intervention study. Having said that, all participants will be screened and factors such as skill level, hours of training, etc will all be taken into consideration. 

Recently, there has been growing concern regarding safe stretching,  how to improve flexibility and the demand for extremes of flexibility among young dancers. I have been reading and researching different methods that have been used within gymnastics and other sports and would like to trial several different methods to see which are the most effective.

Therefore, I am looking for any dancers who are struggling with their splits to take part in a splits improvement trial comparing different types of stretching / strengthening.

Participants will be assigned a series of exercises and will be invited to an online training session (via zoom) to learn how to do the exercises. There will be strict guidelines about what other flexibility exercises participants can and can’t do during the trial period. After the trial period any students who would like additional guidance, will be given individual training plans to keep working on their splits.

To take part please contact me by email by June 30th using the email address emily@fittodanceforlife.com

22 hours ago, Dance*is*life said:

I do hope you can start before September - that is a long gap!  We only stopped for just over two calendar months.  I was very frustrated trying to teach on zoom.  The majority of our students live in apartments and the floors are tile on cement, so no space and impossible to jump at all!  We do have aĺl sorts of regulations, but we're coping.  What I do think is that children are resilient and once they start again, I'm sure their enthusiasm will return.  Their sudden disinterest is probably a protective measure to keep them from agonising too much about missing dance.........

Where are you based? I've had enough of zoom now! I'm itching to get back but sense tells me September might well be it. Unless I try running classes over the 'summer holidays'. Some children are going back to school next week but I can't apply the same distancing measures to dance classes (nor would I want to) so it's just about weighing up the risks. It seems most dance schools are staying shut until maybe gyms etc can re-open. I'm so worried that I'll have lost students due to lack of interest; there are some who I've not seen or heard from in ages and I don't even know if they're going to come back! It's a very anxious time....

Pinkpip100 where are you based in the country? (although right now thats somewhat of a moot point!) I run a Midlands based associate-type scheme where there is a large emphasis on the conditioning side of dance training (strength, flexibility, core placement and technique) as it's such an important foundation to build the ballet technique onto. We've had many students continue to train with their local teacher and us, before going to vocational school in year 9 or 10 (Elmhurst, Tring, YDA, Hammond) so we are well-versed in making sure students are keeping up with the standard required to then allow them to join at a later date. Some teachers just don't have an idea of the level of progress required to ensure that students can 'slot into a year group' later. I'm always happy to advise parents, give private coaching or training programmes. Please drop me a message if you are interested.

Speaking from the perspective of someone who receives video auditions every year (and is likely to have a lot this year!) it doesn’t matter whether someone does their video once or 10 times. It will still be enough to make a judgement on the candidates suitability. In an audition class we often repeat an exercise several times, with the students in groups or rotating lines etc so they always get a second shot at something so in that respect it’s not like an exam anyway.

19 hours ago, NJH said:

demonstrates the  process / kit  from a teaching point of view  

i'd stand by  my assertion that  *as a student*  if  your phone / tablet supports screen mirroring to  the TV / decent monitor   that is adequate 

 presumably by  having the  laptop connected to the TV  you can get a nice big gallery view of your students  ?

Yes the set up is designed for teaching - I have always made that clear. It was really a video in response to those people who asked about the clip on lense for my camera. 

Laptop to tv gives me a big gallery view of my students, yes. It's vital. I tried using my ipad alone and mirroring it to my tv but by having it in portrait view limited the number of students I could see.

As a teacher - I prefer my students to have portrait view from either a phone or ipad because I can see them better. Either that or their laptop needs to be a long way away!

Hi Peanut and Confuddled, and anyone else who's interested - I have done a little video demo for you all 

I'll try and record something to show you my set up later on, once I'm ready to teach! I have classes from 3-7 tonight...

4 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I’m really rubbish about tech... so, if a student clipped this over ipad or phone it would enable wider/longer/more full body view for teacher taking online class & also if using phone etc to record video/take photos? 

Could I be cheeky & ask if there is any way Dr Dance you could post a link to a demo photo/video - without then with gadget to see the difference it makes as I’m more confuddled than Confuddled!! 

Thanks in advance....

 

I clip mine over the camera and it does allow a bigger field of vision. It varies depending on whether you use zoom or ipad's own camera or for photos or videos etc but I can try to do a demo?!