Anna C

I will never, ever, knock those students who graduate from our top ballet schools. That said, as we’ve seen both in the media and on here, determination (and even talent) is NOT enough in ballet training. Not thin enough? Too long in the torso? Too “soft”? Too curvy? Not the right feet? Trained too “cautiously” (even at our own lower school) so you’re not as exciting to watch as someone trained elsewhere? Sorry, bye. You either don’t make it to Upper School, or you do, but get assessed out before graduation year (or worse, asked to leave “quietly” during graduation year, so you don’t “spoil” the graduate employment stats. And all for things you can do absolutely NOTHING about. Being the elite and the most determined (and talented) works in sports, academics, and even other art forms like music, singing, the fine arts etc, but in ballet, it’s simply not enough.

I’m not sure how anyone can look at a group of teenagers and “guess” that only one of them is British! Let’s be extremely careful please that we don’t go down a route of (albeit unconscious) xenophobia - or worse. Edited to add: We also need to be careful about what language we use; “home grown”, “home born”, etc. A student doesn’t need to have been born here to be trained in the “British” style. And if it wasn’t clear from my post, when I talk about lower school/upper school children being assessed out, sometimes in favour of competition winners, I absolutely do not mean “British *BORN*” students, I mean British TRAINED students.

😂😂 Thank you! I tried to play it safe with my wording.

Well done to her (and you!). I remember it well!

Thank you, @LukeJennings for another excellent and thought provoking article. Two points stood out in particular - the need for a “top down” approach, with Company Directors working in tandem with School Principals, and secondly, one of the commenter’s remarks on YAGP and other competitions. With regard to the former, I see this as a top down AND bottom up problem. For instance, Upper and Lower Schools (RBS/White Lodge in particular) need to start communicating properly, and ensuring that the training and selection at lower school level is producing students good enough to have a decent chance of getting into Upper School/6th form. There might be *some* excuse for this communication to be lacking where the Lower School AD and the Upper School AD are different people, but when these posts are held by one person, there is none. Then, if a student makes it from year 11 into year 12 of the same school, how can there be ANY reason for a teacher to criticise a student’s physique within the first week? I cannot find an excuse for this. Even if the student has put on a few pounds from resting during the summer holidays, they will not take long to get back to their usual working body. I’m still absolutely gobsmacked at that “If I had a knife” comment. You’re right about the gamble of taking 11 year olds into training (especially the “arched feet” issue - bone structure cannot be altered, “banana feet” are often much more prone to injury, and feet themselves can not only be strengthened, but their look can change when a student starts pointe work. In the Principal and First Soloist ranks at Royal, there are a wide range of not only feet - some “banana”, some not at all, but also body types, bust sizes, and so on. And long may that diversity of physique last. So is it - at Royal, say - that Kevin O’Hare needs to change what he’s looking for? Perhaps not. Perhaps the problem is more “bottom up”, at RBS in particular. Should White Lodge do away with years 7-9, and only offer training for Years 10 and 11? Should the AD of the school pay more close attention to Lower School selection, and to the training at that level, so we don’t have any more years where only 1 or 2 (or no) British trained girls get into Upper School? And finally, talking of competitions, should it be acceptable for students to be assessed out (or “asked nicely” to leave, before graduation) after 1 or 2 years of a 3 year course, only for a competition winner trained elsewhere to take their place? Being assessed out before the beginning or end of grad year isn’t only an RBS problem, of course; it seems to be common practice at many schools, but the “won a competition, spent a year at Upper School and then have “trained at Royal Ballet School” on your bio” is not unheard of. We all have varying opinions on ballet competitions; maybe there’s a place for them, but does a teenager’s ability to get through a flashy variation necessarily mean anything in the long run? Will they develop superb acting skills, or be a wonderful partner in pas de deux work? Can ADs judge that from one or two variations, and assess someone else out, that they’ve trained for several years, on the basis that they are a great turner, or impressive ballon, or extremely bendy feet? Why is that more desirable than a student with years of British training? Isn’t it another gamble? Apologies for the long, somewhat rambling post. It’s great that Panorama and File on Four started this conversation, but if we’re to get a National inquiry similar to that of British Gymnastics, it would be great to keep the momentum going. Body shaming is one (major) problem in ballet, but not only is there more to that issue that the programme didn’t have time to cover (photoshopping dancers’ bodies for adverts and in schools is a big one), but there are also other issues that need investigating if ballet training in the UK is ever going to change. Perhaps the Panorama team are reading this thread - we can but hope.

Yes, this is vital in my opinion. That GCSE/audition period is exhausting and ridiculously busy BUT so important. If you have the best GCSE grades you can manage, in a range of facilitating subjects (eg Maths, English Lang, then preferably a language, at least one science, and either Music or a humanity), you’re in the best position to change pathway if necessary.

Hello ThatDancingGirl and welcome to the forum. 😊 The first place that springs to my mind for 16+ dance training plus A’ Levels is Tring Park School, then, as Swanwings says, Elmhurst. If, like mine, your dd is academic, I think A Levels are vital, and A Levels during the school day are the only realistic way to do it, in my opinion. After a long, arduous, stressful day training, I doubt any 16/17 year old would have the energy to then start online/evening academic classes. The other advantage of an upper school that offers A Levels is that you don’t use any Student Finance degree funding from SFE (DaDa didn’t use to affect SFE loans, but I’m not sure now) and can choose (within reason) the subjects you’re interested in/ones that can facilitate a degree that’s not dance related.

I regularly dream that I’m about to go onstage at the ROH as an understudy, but I don’t know the steps, so I have to improvise. The bizarre thing is that I’m en pointe, and am dancing perfectly, when in reality I’ve never even worn pointe shoes; I stopped dancing at age 8. It must be all the years of taking my daughter to pointe shoe fittings, perhaps. I find it fascinating how we can do things in dreams that we’ve never done in real life.

Thank you so much for posting your excellent and thoughtful article here, @Susie Crow, and welcome to the forum. Another one of the Psychologists featured on the File on Four programme, Dr Alison Stuart, has posted in the “sister” thread, over in our “Doing Dance” subforum, and her thoughts are similar to yours. I wasn’t sure whether you’d seen that thread but if not, you may be interested.

There’s a huge difference between being “dissatisfied with your body”/“offended” and being shamed, bullied, and even abused for physical attributes that are often out of your control. And having to stare at yourself in mirrors, day in, day out, comparing yourself to others (and that comparison being continued by teachers). As for being “offended by anything they hear”, maybe what’s being said to them IS offensive. Just because teenagers are already insecure, ballet teachers weaponising that insecurity against students is wholly unacceptable.

@Tulip it is now, as is Central.

I think this is a very good idea. What initially prompted the Whyte Review into Gymnastics, do we know? Was it the “Athlete A” documentary? Leigh Day, the law firm asking on Twitter for people to come forward with their experiences of RBS, Elmhurst, Hammond, YDA (and the school in Hinkley that we do not discuss here) have an interesting article on the Whyte Review here: https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2022-blogs/the-whyte-review-final-report-abuse-in-british-gymnastics/#:~:text=There were allegations of sexual,the gymnasts abused by Larry I think it was @capybara who wondered whether The Charities Commission could also be involved - it sounds like it might be worth investigating, although not all the above schools are registered charities.

I echo everyone else’s thoughts, @balletbean - you, @meadowblythe, and all our other kind forum members who have stayed around after their children have left school - or even stopped dancing - are an invaluable source of help, and the voices of experience that are so useful to those with children just starting out on the ballet journey. We do hope you stick around. 😊

Yes, the File on 4 programme. 👍🏻

I would absolutely think it does. Ballet + puberty is already a tricky combination, especially for girls doing pointework (balance is thrown off, there’s often one leg longer than the other, and so on); you’re surrounded by mirrors, you compare yourself to other students, your uniform leotard is often unflattering. Like bone structure, changes during puberty and while still growing are out of your control. So if your physique is criticised in any way during this period, when you are powerless to control what your body is doing, you do 2 things. Firstly, you control the only thing you CAN control; what you eat (or don’t eat). Secondly, you often internalise the criticism and believe the voice that’s telling you you’re fat/untalented/bad/undeserving. You actually start to see your reflection in the mirror through the distorted eyes of your critic, whether that critic is external (Teacher, parent, whoever), or internal - or both. Then, if you are assessed out, or see your peers assessed out, simply for changes to their body that they cannot control, it confirms the message that it’s because you/they are “fat”, too muscly, too “soft”, too big-breasted, too “hippy”, *not good enough*. Absolutely the prime environment for eating disorders, body dysmorphia, and mental health problems to thrive.

BMI has been proven to be outdated and inaccurate. Children and teenagers often gain weight and have increased appetite before a growth spurt, and this is completely normal. If, in the 21st century, Lower Schools do not understand that children’s bodies change during puberty, and support & reassure their students that everything happening to their body is normal, then nothing is going to change. Likewise, if a student is talented enough to get a place at Upper School, that same student should not be body shamed within the first week.

If anyone hasn’t yet listened to the accompanying podcast, I urge you to do so. It features other young people in addition to some of those featured in the Panorama programme, plus additional experts. Extremely interesting: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6

For some “schools”, probably because they’re actually businesses, owned by one or two company directors, who aren’t answerable to anyone.

Yes, it’s funny to think of them as solitary when there are so many of them! It just means that they don’t live in colonies with a Queen and Workers. Each female builds her own nest. I suspect that’s why they are so docile and good-natured; no “hive mind” or pack mentality. Apparently, the males don’t even have a sting.

They may be solitary mining or mason bees. We get them in our garden because the entire back half of the garden is a slope, made up of free draining sandy soil. This time of year they are digging tunnels in lawns or soil to make nests. You’ll see them again in spring when the pupae hatch and fly away. They are “solitary” rather than swarming, and they’re very good natured, only stinging if absolutely necessary. We can walk among them and do gardening jobs, and they don’t bat an eyelid. https://www.herefordshirewt.org/blog/andrew-nixon/mining-bees

@Graceful, I’m going to ask you to think about what these parents have gone through, and the fact that you are potentially upsetting both your fellow forum members - and other people who may be reading this thread - by repeating your opinion again and again. Thanks.

I think your anger is misplaced, Graceful. If there was no abuse/bullying/mistreatment in the first place, parents wouldn’t HAVE to stand up to the schools. Without wishing to bring politics into the discussion, this is like blaming Brexit voters for the resultant post 2016 mess, even though many Brexit voters were misled, instead of blaming the politicians who called for the referendum and pushed Brexit through. And parents clearly HAVE complained. Has anything fundamental changed?

When we send our children to school, we trust that school to care for our children. Whether it be a ballet school, a music school, a sports academy, a Faith school or even an everyday academic school, while the students are on the premises, the school has a Duty of Care. As I said earlier, as Parents, we don’t know what we don’t know. Wouldn’t it be lovely to be able to go back in time? Wouldn’t it be great if we could shelter our children and not let them audition for Associates or full-time training, whether that be in ballet, music, football, whatever they are talented in and dream of becoming? But would they thank us for it? I don’t think so. If they audition/apply for elite training, and get selected at RBS/Elmhurst/ENBS or any of the other big, long established, “famous” schools in receipt of public funding, are any of us as parents going to say “Well done darling, but I’m not going to let you accept your place in case you end up with boobs/hips/thighs like mine”. I mean there’s a fairly big chance that they won’t (my daughter has a completely different body shape than me, and longer limbs than my husband; my sister in law was the first redhead in her family since a great great grandparent) - and believe me, if that’s the case, a teenager will have no hesitation in reminding you ad infinitum that you DID NOT LET THEM TRY. If a child is selected for one of the best and most famous institutions in the world, we should be able to entrust them to that institution without the fear that they will be abused, bullied, shamed, humiliated, driven to self-harm or worse. Of course personality plays a part (it’s no coincidence that Oxbridge has a much higher number of students with Imposter Syndrome than Aberystwyth (no offence to Aberystwyth at all); likewise it’s no coincidence that so many ballet students are perfectionists with an extremely vocal inner critic, especially when they’ve been forced to stare at their bodies in a mirror for hours on end, wearing only a leotard and tights). But blaming a student - or that student’s parent - for abuse suffered while they are at a world renowned school, is unacceptable. It’s victim blaming. The student who was accepted into Upper School, and in her first week, was told by a teacher “If I had a knife, this is what I would cut off” - no parent could predict that a TEACHER would say that to their 16 year old. In last night’s programme, Jack’s parents had gone through the unimaginable. Is anyone here going to tell them that they shouldn’t have let their son go to ballet school? Do you think it’s not something they’ve asked themselves over and over again? Of course we have to look out for our children. But we should also let them try for their dreams, and use the talents they have. As much as we’d like to, we cannot shelter them from everything. And we should be able to trust that they will be safe at school.

Richard, thank you for providing that information. All I would point out is this: 1. That just because “no bullying was reported to inspectors”, it doesn’t automatically follow that none took place. 2. That a school can have all the policies in the world, but it doesn’t mean they follow those policies to the letter. 3. Sometimes, it’s not what is or isn’t said that’s the problem. As one of the young women featured on the programme said, it’s the “coded messages” that are often the problem. The little comments here and there, that seep into the recipient’s subconscious but pass other people by. Sometimes, it’s not as obvious as being audibly or visibly bullied; being ignored and given no corrections at all is equally as upsetting and worrying to a dance student as being picked on. There’s a reason Emotional Abuse and bullying is sometimes called “death by a thousand cuts”, or Boiling Frog Syndrome. It’s subtle. It’s insidious. Often, people can’t even identify the problem until it’s too late. And if, as a child or teenager, you think you’re the problem (too fat/too heavy/too unfit/not committed enough/not good enough etc), you internalise that. What are you going to tell an OFSTED/ISI Inspector? Nothing. Nothing bad, certainly.

Possibly, but let’s remember that PdD work is not the only reason for teachers encouraging thinness and weight loss, nor is the body shaming limited to girls. It’s just one element of one problem with our ballet schools.