Anna C

Well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but I think the contrast in their looks is very attractive. And we audience members have our favourite dancers and partnerships, so why shouldn’t the dancers themselves be allowed to have their favourite partners? Sarah Lamb obviously trusts Ryoichi Hirano, and for a ballet like Manon, that is absolutely vital (wasn’t it during pdd rehearsals for Manon years ago that poor Lauren Cuthbertson sustained that horrendous foot injury?). Like Bonelli before him, Ryoichi is a trustworthy, safe and experienced partner AND a superb actor. I’m never disappointed to see him.

A post on this thread has been hidden as it refers to a school not discussed on this forum.

Thank you, Lifeafterballet. As a Mum, I just want to express my thanks to all those who testified and/or provided statements regarding this case. Thinking of all involved.

Excellent question. If they are in 6th form at school or college, it might be better to finish A Levels/whatever qualifications they’ve started, then audition for 18+ training at somewhere like Rambert School, London Studio Centre, or other schools where the training is more than purely ballet focused. That way they still have their A Levels/equivalent to rely on should they decide to change path.

I had “fun” trying to book for Manon this morning; longer queue than usual, clunky getting from the waiting room onto the site, kept getting put back in the waiting room when looking at different dates, and finally, having to literally take a stab at guessing which type of seat I wanted (Access member, access companion, or full price). Black writing on top of a very dark crimson curtain. 🧐🙄 I honestly wish they’d never “improved” the website. I did tweet my displeasure at the ROH and got the usual “Sorry to hear that, have you cleared your cache (yes), can you try a different browser (no)”. It’s 2023 and I should be able to use an iPad to book tickets.

Thank you John, I have signed the petition.

I’m not going to have a debate with you, Graceful. As one of a team of Moderators, it’s part of my role to keep threads on topic and to keep them from descending into arguments. That’s how we run this forum, and it’s how we are working hard to keep this thread open, which I’m sure is what we all want.

Welcome to the forum, Hadtopost.

It’s not scaremongering. Student Loans were never intended to attract interest, so some people might not be aware that they now do. As I said, it’s important to have all the information. Anyway, let’s get back on topic, shall we?

Add to that the absolute outrage of Maintenance Grants having been replaced by repayable Maintenance Loans, meaning the poorest students having to pay back the most. In fact best not to get me started on Student Loans, for the sake of my blood pressure. To sum up then, a student leaving vocational school after 6.2/2 years with a foundation degree/Level 5 diploma or equivalent should be able to get funding to top up to a degree in the same or a related subject. They might be able to change to a different degree IF the new course will accept the credits from the vocational school, but how many years funding may be available, will depend on various things. As always, best to check with your chosen university and also with SFE or equivalent.

Not necessarily. As with everything to do with funding, it depends: ”Your funding may be affected if: the duration of your preferred course is longer or shorter than your current one; you would be starting your preferred course from the beginning, after already being partway through your current course; you wish to change to a different course at another institution; you have used your gift year from Student Finance England already you had previous Higher education studies prior to starting your course at the University”

It’s all important information. The more information you have, the better.

Nothing’s wrong with it, Kerfuffle, but it does mean your options (and financial means for further study) are limited. I think that if a student has had a traumatic time at 16+ training, and possibly wants nothing more to do with dance (at least for a while), having to do a year doing a top up degree in dance might be the absolute last thing they want to do.

Well, I may be stating the obvious here, but this is Balletcoforum, and the Panorama/File on Four programmes were specifically about ballet schools. Nobody’s saying there aren’t issues in state schools, or that there aren’t other problems facing the UK, but that doesn’t mean this isn’t an important issue. If nobody had come forward about the abuse in gymnastics, or the goings-on at the ballet school in Scotland, and if ITV/BBC hadn’t been prepared to investigate, things would have continued as they were. Just because something hasn’t happened to you or your child, doesn’t mean it (a) hasn’t happened to anyone else, or (b) that nobody should investigate, in order to stop it happening again.

Absolutely. In addition to “possibly traumatised”, you can add any or all of these: depression, anxiety, loss of confidence, loss of any remaining self-esteem, body dysmorphia and/or eating disorders, physical injuries, and grief for a life/career they will now no longer have. Plus the (sometimes temporary) loss of the love of dance itself. It’s heartbreaking.

Indeed. I may be wrong here, but I believe that if you leave/are assessed out after 2 years of 16+ ballet training with a foundation degree or certificate, you are very limited in what subjects you can “top up” to a BA. If your Level 5 HND/Foundation degree/diploma/certificate is in Dance or Dance related studies, you can only “top up” to a Level 6 degree in the same, or a closely related field. Tring Park is probably the best 6th form for offering a relatively wide range of A Levels in facilitating subjects, enabling its students to change path completely if desired (or necessary).

That’s a good point, Anne. However, in other ballets containing elements that weren’t originally but are are now considered problematic, those elements (be they costume/makeup or choreography) can be - and have been - altered. I’m thinking in particular of the Tea/Chinese dance in RB’s Nutcracker, where both costume/props and choreography have been changed. I can see no reason why Alain couldn’t be portrayed as more “eccentric bachelor”, totally uninterested in/unaware of marriage, than someone with developmental delay/learning difficulties, who is laughed AT, as opposed to laughed WITH. Likewise, as much as I enjoyed Naughty Peregrine the pony, he’s not pivotal to the story. People may have their own views on modernising certain dances/portrayals, but surely it’s better to do that than not perform the production at all?

There’s a major difference between academic school and ballet school though, and that is that as parents, we absolutely CAN (and should) ask for a meeting with the teacher/staff member in question and, if necessary, the Head of Year/Assistant Head/Deputy Head/Head Teacher, make a complaint, know that we have further avenues to explore if the complaint is not investigated thoroughly and resolved satisfactorily, AND - most importantly of all - there are not 100 other children who can and will replace our child when they are inevitably pushed out - or leave. We can go to the Governors, to the Parent Governor, to the LADO, or OFSTED. The fear factor isn’t there. The fear of being labelled a troublemaker (or the child with the trouble-making parents). The fear of punishment or being ignored, not cast, just because your parent has dared to complain. The fear that even at local or Associates level, word will get around, you will be blacklisted somehow, you won’t be considered for a place in a better dance school, or in the next year up at Associates, or make the competition troupe, or get a solo in the show. We’ve talked before on the forum about putting up with things in ballet (even at local ballet classes) that, as parents, we wouldn’t dream of tolerating from our child’s academic school. The education system in this country has its flaws, absolutely, but the fear isn’t there. It absolutely still is there in ballet training though. I’m very happy that White Lodge has been a positive experience for you as a family. It undoubtedly is for other families too. I’ve no doubt that there are some - maybe even many - happy pupils at every full-time ballet school, but that doesn’t mean that everything’s lovely in the garden.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with Nutcracker at Christmas; it’s a guaranteed money maker and - in our house, certainly - is a Christmas tradition (even though we’ve done ENB 3 times and BRB at the RAH, the ROH/SPW is dd’s firm favourite). However, I would love something like Les Patineurs/Winter Dreams scattered among the “Nuts” or after Christmas, for a change, and for those of us who can only tolerate so many sugar plums before getting toothache! Likewise I adore MacMillan’s Romeo and Juliet, and Manon (and admire, rather than “love” Mayerling), so don’t mind Sir Kenneth’s “Big three” in strict rotation. My major gripe is too much McGregor and nowhere NEAR enough Ashton. (I’d also like more regular Balanchine and Robbins, but that’s off-topic). And, like Floss, I’m baffled by the centenaries and anniversaries of ballets and choreographers that seem to come and go, marked by a whimper rather than a bang, with revivals of recent works within short time periods, while we have to wait an eternity for other ballets to be revived. I’ve lost count of the amount of times that the ROH put clips of things like “Fille” on their social media channels, which invariably draw pleas of “We need Fille back at the ROH, please!” without any response. Makes me wonder if the ROH actually reads comments?

You make excellent points, Capybara. I think the first thing we need to do in our ballet schools is to remove something that both Luke Jennings and Dr Alison Stuart said, and that is Fear. An artist cannot thrive in an atmosphere of fear. In fact nobody, child or adult, is at their best, and can express themselves naturally, when scared. I think I’m remembering rightly (please do correct me if not) that some years ago, both Carlos Acosta and Christopher Powney commented on different occasions that British ballet students were - not lazy, certainly - reticent, maybe? Backwards in coming forward? “Lack motivation”, was a term I think Christopher Powney used. I disagreed then, and I disagree now. I think what ails British ballet students is fear. Imagine how a 16 year old could thrive if she knew that in her first week at Upper School, she wasn’t going to be body shamed? Imagine having the confidence and stability of knowing that (serious injury and change of path notwithstanding) you could settle into a routine and actually *enjoy* being taught in some of the world’s most beautiful studios, by wonderful, knowledgeable, inspirational teachers, that you would be corrected but not bullied, that at the end of each year you could look forward to next year; that shame, humiliation, and most of all FEAR of being - let’s call it what it is - expelled just before the final hurdle, was not a part of your life in training. Have end of year exams/assessments by all means, but only to identify strengths and things to work on. Not as some sort of elimination, “one in, one out” scenario. No artist is able to be herself under those circumstances.

I will never, ever, knock those students who graduate from our top ballet schools. That said, as we’ve seen both in the media and on here, determination (and even talent) is NOT enough in ballet training. Not thin enough? Too long in the torso? Too “soft”? Too curvy? Not the right feet? Trained too “cautiously” (even at our own lower school) so you’re not as exciting to watch as someone trained elsewhere? Sorry, bye. You either don’t make it to Upper School, or you do, but get assessed out before graduation year (or worse, asked to leave “quietly” during graduation year, so you don’t “spoil” the graduate employment stats. And all for things you can do absolutely NOTHING about. Being the elite and the most determined (and talented) works in sports, academics, and even other art forms like music, singing, the fine arts etc, but in ballet, it’s simply not enough.

I’m not sure how anyone can look at a group of teenagers and “guess” that only one of them is British! Let’s be extremely careful please that we don’t go down a route of (albeit unconscious) xenophobia - or worse. Edited to add: We also need to be careful about what language we use; “home grown”, “home born”, etc. A student doesn’t need to have been born here to be trained in the “British” style. And if it wasn’t clear from my post, when I talk about lower school/upper school children being assessed out, sometimes in favour of competition winners, I absolutely do not mean “British *BORN*” students, I mean British TRAINED students.

😂😂 Thank you! I tried to play it safe with my wording.

Well done to her (and you!). I remember it well!

Thank you, @LukeJennings for another excellent and thought provoking article. Two points stood out in particular - the need for a “top down” approach, with Company Directors working in tandem with School Principals, and secondly, one of the commenter’s remarks on YAGP and other competitions. With regard to the former, I see this as a top down AND bottom up problem. For instance, Upper and Lower Schools (RBS/White Lodge in particular) need to start communicating properly, and ensuring that the training and selection at lower school level is producing students good enough to have a decent chance of getting into Upper School/6th form. There might be *some* excuse for this communication to be lacking where the Lower School AD and the Upper School AD are different people, but when these posts are held by one person, there is none. Then, if a student makes it from year 11 into year 12 of the same school, how can there be ANY reason for a teacher to criticise a student’s physique within the first week? I cannot find an excuse for this. Even if the student has put on a few pounds from resting during the summer holidays, they will not take long to get back to their usual working body. I’m still absolutely gobsmacked at that “If I had a knife” comment. You’re right about the gamble of taking 11 year olds into training (especially the “arched feet” issue - bone structure cannot be altered, “banana feet” are often much more prone to injury, and feet themselves can not only be strengthened, but their look can change when a student starts pointe work. In the Principal and First Soloist ranks at Royal, there are a wide range of not only feet - some “banana”, some not at all, but also body types, bust sizes, and so on. And long may that diversity of physique last. So is it - at Royal, say - that Kevin O’Hare needs to change what he’s looking for? Perhaps not. Perhaps the problem is more “bottom up”, at RBS in particular. Should White Lodge do away with years 7-9, and only offer training for Years 10 and 11? Should the AD of the school pay more close attention to Lower School selection, and to the training at that level, so we don’t have any more years where only 1 or 2 (or no) British trained girls get into Upper School? And finally, talking of competitions, should it be acceptable for students to be assessed out (or “asked nicely” to leave, before graduation) after 1 or 2 years of a 3 year course, only for a competition winner trained elsewhere to take their place? Being assessed out before the beginning or end of grad year isn’t only an RBS problem, of course; it seems to be common practice at many schools, but the “won a competition, spent a year at Upper School and then have “trained at Royal Ballet School” on your bio” is not unheard of. We all have varying opinions on ballet competitions; maybe there’s a place for them, but does a teenager’s ability to get through a flashy variation necessarily mean anything in the long run? Will they develop superb acting skills, or be a wonderful partner in pas de deux work? Can ADs judge that from one or two variations, and assess someone else out, that they’ve trained for several years, on the basis that they are a great turner, or impressive ballon, or extremely bendy feet? Why is that more desirable than a student with years of British training? Isn’t it another gamble? Apologies for the long, somewhat rambling post. It’s great that Panorama and File on Four started this conversation, but if we’re to get a National inquiry similar to that of British Gymnastics, it would be great to keep the momentum going. Body shaming is one (major) problem in ballet, but not only is there more to that issue that the programme didn’t have time to cover (photoshopping dancers’ bodies for adverts and in schools is a big one), but there are also other issues that need investigating if ballet training in the UK is ever going to change. Perhaps the Panorama team are reading this thread - we can but hope.