Legseleven

Thanks ballemum; another Grishko recommendation! I think the Vaganovas were the fitter's preferred Grishko option for her because she has long toes as well as a high arch and the Vaganova vamp is very long. It's interesting that your DD's very arched strong feet don't automatically mean that she has to have a hard shank in her 2007s; has she always used medium shank? Do you know what sort of trouble your DD's friends have had with Freeds? I realise that different feet will experience different problems, but it's a bit worrying that all of them have given up on Freeds. The shop we usually go to and the shop we went to this time both stock various makes and models, so we are lucky to have a good choice; if necessary we will just have to try on absolutely every pair available! ;-)

Thank you so much; I knew there would be some great advice on this forum! Spannerandpony - the Freeds are the hard shank, but I had also heard that Freeds aren't the longest-lasting shoes generally. I will ask her teachers what they think, although as Gaynor Mindens were suggested by one teaher in a bid for 'unkillable' shoes, I suspect that they too may advise the Grishkos! Pas de Quatre - she did try the Grishko 2007s as these had been recommended by a friend who also kills shoes quickly, but doesn't have a high arch. They weren't recommended by the fitter - I think partly because the vamp isn't particularly high? (although I may have got that wrong - she tried quite a few pairs....). Bloch Suprimas weren't tried, but thank you for the suggestion! Pasdebourree15 - thank you for the recommendation, we will ask about Freed Studio IIs. We will also start using Jet Glue! What an amazing forum this is! Thank you all again ;-)

My DD has very arched, narrow, compressible feet, with long toes, the first three of which are almost the same length. I wondered whether anyone could recommend pointe shoes that have worked for those with similar feet? She has had Bloch Sonatas previously, which worked well for her and didn't die too soon, so could go back to those. Her current pair are Bloch Axis and lasted two lessons! even though we deliberately didn't use the hairdryer to soften the shanks on the recommendation of her fitter and her teachers. She tried Grishko Vaganovas and Freed Classic Pros yesterday, both of which she liked and were recommended by the fitter - a different fitter, as we weren't able to go to our usual shop - we bought the Freeds and will obviously have these approved by her teachers. However, having now researched it seems to me that the Grishko Vaganovas would have been the better choice for her type of feet. We can of course return the Freeds if her teachers don't approve them, so all is not lost...I just wondered whether any of the knowledgeable folk on this forum were able to advise?

Bloch soft pointes also seem very hard. We wrap them in a towel, bash them with a hammer - all over the box, bend the shanks and sole both ways and hold the,over a steaming kettle as spannerandpony recommended. Very cathartic and great stress relief!

I forgot to say that Elmhurst has a junior associates class in Sunderland, which may be reachable for you from north Yorkshire? They are weekly classes.

Yorkshire is very well served for ballet, but I realise that it will depend on your transportation and the area in which you live. There are Royal Ballet School associates and Northern Ballet associates in Leeds, both weekly I think - RBS associates may have the option of fortnightly classes? SLP College associates are in Garforth, a few miles outside Leeds. I understand that the journey to Ballet West and Scottish Ballet associate classes in Glasgow may be relatively easy from north Yorkshire? YBSS (Yorkshire Assembly) associate classes are weekly in York. It may be worthwhile to look at the Yorkshire Young Dancers CAT schemes - ballet at Northern Ballet and contemporary at Northern School of Contemporary Dance, both in Leeds, although I suspect that they may be weekly (and more often than weekly?). Further afield, the Hammond School, Chester has a monthly associate scheme. KS Dance in Warrington is the venue for the northern Cecchetti associate classes, which I think are also monthly. RAD associate classes are running in Birmingham and Cambridge from April to July, one Sunday per month. Hope you find somewhere that suits you and your dancer/s!

Our posts crossed, taxi4ballet and I agree that it is good that some students can benefit from a state funded vocational training. What is annoying is that there is the reference to students applying for DADAs choosing to attend 'private fee-paying schools' - when the reality is that there is no alternative to a private fee-paying vocational school unless you are eligible for Dance School of Scotland.

Sorry, my previous post was written tongue in cheek and I didn't mean to sound flippant. It is a valid point though - the only state school offering vocational dance training is in Scotland with restrictive entry requirements based on nationality/residence rather than purely on talent (I am not for one moment suggesting that the students there aren't talented). Should those students who qualify on the basis of nationality/residence for the Dance School of Scotland be able to apply for DADAs at the other UK schools and thus compete with students who are not eligible to attend Dance School of Scotland? Why should their choice not to attend the state vocational school for which they are eligible potentially deprive a student who isn't eligible to attend anything but a fee paying vocational school of a DADA?

The state school offering vocational ballet training is in Scotland. However you can't attend unless you are Scottish or resident in Scotland.... I suppose it's a bit like the areas of the UK which have retained the grammar school system and are attractive to those parents with academic children who would benefit from a grammar school education. Perhaps parents of dance students should look at moving to Scotland in good time for their children to apply there.

Great stuff Jaylou62! I'm not trying to be controversial but Is the Dance School of Scotland still free for those living in/born in Scotland (I don't know the exact requirements) and does it have both lower and upper school students? There was a recent discussion on the forum about it. It is manifestly inequitable to have such a punitive DADA system operating in England when another part of the UK does have a state school training talented dance students - but only those resident in/born in Scotland. In fact it is racist and perhaps something for the seemingly rabid human rights lawyers to get their teeth into. Can you imagine the furore if there was a dance school offering state funded training in England - but only to those born in/resident in England?!

Every type of foot has its own advantages and drawbacks and although I am not a teacher or ballet professional, your daughter's feet don't look totally 'straight' or flat to me. My DD has 'banana' feet, exclaimed over and admired as they are so pretty (and she is not allowed to wear split soles as her feet can appear too arched in them - and she needs no help in achieving a fully pointed look), but managed to break a pair of pointe shoes in one lesson simply working in class, with no previous manipulation of the shoes. She then looked as though she was about to go right over in the shoes, very bad for my nerves! - although she is blessed with strong feet and didn't feel in danger herself, as she was able to pull out of the shoes despite saying that they were no longer providing support. Banana feet can, I understand, be weak when compared with less arched feet; although my DD doesn't have weak feet, her super arches are not good for the purse when she can break pointe shoes so quickly.....;-) Every foot (and body) type will have positives and negatives.

Russian? The character dances for RAD Grades 3&4 are Russian and would therefore be suitable for a 9 year old, as most children would probably be 9 or 10 when they take those grades (my daughter was 9 when she took Grade 3 and 10 when she took Grade 4).

Yes, I read in 'Life at the Royal Ballet School' by Camilla Jessel that WL x-rayed auditionees' wrists to gauge adult height. The book also said that the parents were looked at to get an idea of likely adult shape - and there was a definite reference to parental width as well as height, very un-PC! The book was published in c 1978 though so the non-PC aspect of the reference to that practice probably didn't jar as much as it does now at that time. I have no idea how they did this as I don't imagine that they could guarantee that both parents would or could come to the school so that they could take a view as to their height and width! Or why they needed to do this as they were x-raying wrists. I still don't know why they ask for parents' heights on application forms as these are not always accurate indicators of a child's likely adult height - and in the case of adopted children they would have no relevance at all. If they still want an idea of likely adult height then they should perhaps go back to x-raying wrists.

I have looked at the NODA website (re amateur performances) and there is a production at The Pump House Theatre and Arts Centre in Watford from 30 April to 4 May, with a matinee performance on 4 May as well as the evening performance. It is being performed by Rickmansworth Players ( www.rickmansworth-players.org.uk). I don't know anything about this group or the likely standard and I appreciate that it's a fair journey for you...maybe you could combine it with a London theatre trip?! ;-)

If there were really no places available in a particular age group/s (and I realise that this may not be the case), I would be interested in how the school would justify taking audition fees and allowing travel expenses to be incurred. If it was made clear that there were no places available and children auditioned anyway for the experience, then that would be understandable. Or is it the case that if they really want you on the course they will make a place available for you?

Thanks Primrose.

Do Tring and Hammond allow their pupils to wear various pointe shoe makes?

Whilst it is great that the RBS supports a British shoemaker, I cannot fathom why other makes of shoe are not allowed (except for Bloch, albeit only at a certain age and with the school's express permission) if they suit a particular student better. The RBS is a British school but trains students from across the world and those students, whilst all being exceptionally talented and physically suited to ballet, will all perform best in the shoes that suit THEM best. I can't believe that other shoe makers are not prepared to go in to the RBS as Freed do, so it can't just be a matter of convenience for the school; and even if it was, doesn't a vocational school have a duty of care towards its students to ensure that they all have the 'tools of their trade', ie pointe shoes, which are the most suitable for them at that time? My DD's non-vocational teachers are rightly anxious to ensure that their students have careful fittings for each and every pair of pointe shoes as their feet can change significantly and that is for students who for the most part don't aim to dance professionally. For vocational students this is surely absolutely imperative?

Why is this stranglehold on WL students by Freed in place? Such a total monopoly is bizarre. Thinking about it, on both occasions that I have been into the Freed shop I have been informed (without having asked) that they supply all the RBS students (which isn't correct as I now know from Living the Dream) and I took it with a pinch of salt, thinking it just went with the slightly superior attitude displayed by both members of staff I have encountered. Having read with interest the thread discussing the different Freed shoe makers, I started this thread expecting to be told that if Freed did indeed fit all RBS students, then they would be carefully assessed each time and would have their shoes made by the most appropriate maker, if not entirely custom made for their feet. It seems that this is not the case. If WL and Elmhurst aren't taking great care to fit the most appropriate pointe shoes for each individual student, as Living the Dream and Dancemaddad have indicated, it seems ludicrous. Why risk possibly damaging the feet of a carefully selected, talented student, or possibly affecting their confidence if they are dancing in shoes which don't suit their feet?

Sounds like Elmhurst girls have a choice of makes then Peach3, which makes sense to me (as the mum of a non-vocational DD). And how fantastic that pointe shoes are included in the MDS award! Very sensible.

Thank you Living the Dream, that is fascinating. I had fondly imagined that extreme care would be taken to ensure that the right shoes were worn each and every time to look after students' feet as well as possible. So if a student arrives at WL at 11 wearing, say, Bloch or Grishko shoes, would they be allowed to continue wearing these or would they have to swap to Freeds? It seems so archaic to stick to Freeds for every WL student when I assume that they won't suit everyone (and indeed your daughter swapped to Blochs - as soon as she was allowed to do so?) Do WL allow padding and/or elastics if required?

I'm just being nosy here but was wondering whether vocational schools, particularly lower schools, make arrangements for their pupils to be fitted with pointe shoes or whether pupils and their parents are 'left to it'. I suppose it might depend to some extent on whether a pupil is already en pointe when they arrive at the school? Do they suggest particular makes/ styles for each pupil? Do they allow Gaynor Mindens at all?

I'm not sure whether the lower age limit of 9 for the York Scholars summer school applies at the time of the summer school (early August) or when applying, but I can recommend it if your daughter would be eligible to attend. Great teaching and great fun, all in the beautiful Queen Margaret's school in Escrick, near York; and the most beautiful part of the country for a holiday for you all! Day students can attend if you would rather she didn't board.

I would be very surprised (and a little horrified) if Tring really are only accepting children who are able to do all splits, straddle and pike. Unfortunately, many in the wider community already seem to think that flexibility is the only mark of a good dancer and those children who are able to 'wrap their legs around their heads' are often lauded as the next big thing on that basis alone ; there was a recent thread about the trend for ultra-extensions etc (plain ugly in many instances, in my humble opinion) and the 'gymnasticising' of ballet and I would hate to think that a vocational school really was setting splits all ways, straddle and pike as 'must have' entrance requirements. I hope that this is not the case further to Balletmumfor2's and Tulip's posts, although I am conscious that they referred specifically to the RBS rather than to Tring. As most people would consider the RBS to be the most prestigious UK vocational school and the most difficult to get into, I assume that what is not an absolute bar to RBS entry would not be an absolute bar to Tring entry?

I suppose we then get into the murky waters of there being a separate Scottish parliament when there is no separate English parliament and most pertinently from where the funding provided to Glasgow City Council actually comes...I have no issue with there being a fully funded school available in Scotland but whilst Scotland is in fact part of the UK and receives funding from the central government, applicants should be accepted from all parts of the UK.