Anna C

Yes, this is vital in my opinion. That GCSE/audition period is exhausting and ridiculously busy BUT so important. If you have the best GCSE grades you can manage, in a range of facilitating subjects (eg Maths, English Lang, then preferably a language, at least one science, and either Music or a humanity), you’re in the best position to change pathway if necessary.

Hello ThatDancingGirl and welcome to the forum. 😊 The first place that springs to my mind for 16+ dance training plus A’ Levels is Tring Park School, then, as Swanwings says, Elmhurst. If, like mine, your dd is academic, I think A Levels are vital, and A Levels during the school day are the only realistic way to do it, in my opinion. After a long, arduous, stressful day training, I doubt any 16/17 year old would have the energy to then start online/evening academic classes. The other advantage of an upper school that offers A Levels is that you don’t use any Student Finance degree funding from SFE (DaDa didn’t use to affect SFE loans, but I’m not sure now) and can choose (within reason) the subjects you’re interested in/ones that can facilitate a degree that’s not dance related.

I regularly dream that I’m about to go onstage at the ROH as an understudy, but I don’t know the steps, so I have to improvise. The bizarre thing is that I’m en pointe, and am dancing perfectly, when in reality I’ve never even worn pointe shoes; I stopped dancing at age 8. It must be all the years of taking my daughter to pointe shoe fittings, perhaps. I find it fascinating how we can do things in dreams that we’ve never done in real life.

Thank you so much for posting your excellent and thoughtful article here, @Susie Crow, and welcome to the forum. Another one of the Psychologists featured on the File on Four programme, Dr Alison Stuart, has posted in the “sister” thread, over in our “Doing Dance” subforum, and her thoughts are similar to yours. I wasn’t sure whether you’d seen that thread but if not, you may be interested.

There’s a huge difference between being “dissatisfied with your body”/“offended” and being shamed, bullied, and even abused for physical attributes that are often out of your control. And having to stare at yourself in mirrors, day in, day out, comparing yourself to others (and that comparison being continued by teachers). As for being “offended by anything they hear”, maybe what’s being said to them IS offensive. Just because teenagers are already insecure, ballet teachers weaponising that insecurity against students is wholly unacceptable.

@Tulip it is now, as is Central.

I think this is a very good idea. What initially prompted the Whyte Review into Gymnastics, do we know? Was it the “Athlete A” documentary? Leigh Day, the law firm asking on Twitter for people to come forward with their experiences of RBS, Elmhurst, Hammond, YDA (and the school in Hinkley that we do not discuss here) have an interesting article on the Whyte Review here: https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2022-blogs/the-whyte-review-final-report-abuse-in-british-gymnastics/#:~:text=There were allegations of sexual,the gymnasts abused by Larry I think it was @capybara who wondered whether The Charities Commission could also be involved - it sounds like it might be worth investigating, although not all the above schools are registered charities.

I echo everyone else’s thoughts, @balletbean - you, @meadowblythe, and all our other kind forum members who have stayed around after their children have left school - or even stopped dancing - are an invaluable source of help, and the voices of experience that are so useful to those with children just starting out on the ballet journey. We do hope you stick around. 😊

Yes, the File on 4 programme. 👍🏻

I would absolutely think it does. Ballet + puberty is already a tricky combination, especially for girls doing pointework (balance is thrown off, there’s often one leg longer than the other, and so on); you’re surrounded by mirrors, you compare yourself to other students, your uniform leotard is often unflattering. Like bone structure, changes during puberty and while still growing are out of your control. So if your physique is criticised in any way during this period, when you are powerless to control what your body is doing, you do 2 things. Firstly, you control the only thing you CAN control; what you eat (or don’t eat). Secondly, you often internalise the criticism and believe the voice that’s telling you you’re fat/untalented/bad/undeserving. You actually start to see your reflection in the mirror through the distorted eyes of your critic, whether that critic is external (Teacher, parent, whoever), or internal - or both. Then, if you are assessed out, or see your peers assessed out, simply for changes to their body that they cannot control, it confirms the message that it’s because you/they are “fat”, too muscly, too “soft”, too big-breasted, too “hippy”, *not good enough*. Absolutely the prime environment for eating disorders, body dysmorphia, and mental health problems to thrive.

BMI has been proven to be outdated and inaccurate. Children and teenagers often gain weight and have increased appetite before a growth spurt, and this is completely normal. If, in the 21st century, Lower Schools do not understand that children’s bodies change during puberty, and support & reassure their students that everything happening to their body is normal, then nothing is going to change. Likewise, if a student is talented enough to get a place at Upper School, that same student should not be body shamed within the first week.

If anyone hasn’t yet listened to the accompanying podcast, I urge you to do so. It features other young people in addition to some of those featured in the Panorama programme, plus additional experts. Extremely interesting: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001qdt6

For some “schools”, probably because they’re actually businesses, owned by one or two company directors, who aren’t answerable to anyone.

Yes, it’s funny to think of them as solitary when there are so many of them! It just means that they don’t live in colonies with a Queen and Workers. Each female builds her own nest. I suspect that’s why they are so docile and good-natured; no “hive mind” or pack mentality. Apparently, the males don’t even have a sting.

They may be solitary mining or mason bees. We get them in our garden because the entire back half of the garden is a slope, made up of free draining sandy soil. This time of year they are digging tunnels in lawns or soil to make nests. You’ll see them again in spring when the pupae hatch and fly away. They are “solitary” rather than swarming, and they’re very good natured, only stinging if absolutely necessary. We can walk among them and do gardening jobs, and they don’t bat an eyelid. https://www.herefordshirewt.org/blog/andrew-nixon/mining-bees

@Graceful, I’m going to ask you to think about what these parents have gone through, and the fact that you are potentially upsetting both your fellow forum members - and other people who may be reading this thread - by repeating your opinion again and again. Thanks.

I think your anger is misplaced, Graceful. If there was no abuse/bullying/mistreatment in the first place, parents wouldn’t HAVE to stand up to the schools. Without wishing to bring politics into the discussion, this is like blaming Brexit voters for the resultant post 2016 mess, even though many Brexit voters were misled, instead of blaming the politicians who called for the referendum and pushed Brexit through. And parents clearly HAVE complained. Has anything fundamental changed?

When we send our children to school, we trust that school to care for our children. Whether it be a ballet school, a music school, a sports academy, a Faith school or even an everyday academic school, while the students are on the premises, the school has a Duty of Care. As I said earlier, as Parents, we don’t know what we don’t know. Wouldn’t it be lovely to be able to go back in time? Wouldn’t it be great if we could shelter our children and not let them audition for Associates or full-time training, whether that be in ballet, music, football, whatever they are talented in and dream of becoming? But would they thank us for it? I don’t think so. If they audition/apply for elite training, and get selected at RBS/Elmhurst/ENBS or any of the other big, long established, “famous” schools in receipt of public funding, are any of us as parents going to say “Well done darling, but I’m not going to let you accept your place in case you end up with boobs/hips/thighs like mine”. I mean there’s a fairly big chance that they won’t (my daughter has a completely different body shape than me, and longer limbs than my husband; my sister in law was the first redhead in her family since a great great grandparent) - and believe me, if that’s the case, a teenager will have no hesitation in reminding you ad infinitum that you DID NOT LET THEM TRY. If a child is selected for one of the best and most famous institutions in the world, we should be able to entrust them to that institution without the fear that they will be abused, bullied, shamed, humiliated, driven to self-harm or worse. Of course personality plays a part (it’s no coincidence that Oxbridge has a much higher number of students with Imposter Syndrome than Aberystwyth (no offence to Aberystwyth at all); likewise it’s no coincidence that so many ballet students are perfectionists with an extremely vocal inner critic, especially when they’ve been forced to stare at their bodies in a mirror for hours on end, wearing only a leotard and tights). But blaming a student - or that student’s parent - for abuse suffered while they are at a world renowned school, is unacceptable. It’s victim blaming. The student who was accepted into Upper School, and in her first week, was told by a teacher “If I had a knife, this is what I would cut off” - no parent could predict that a TEACHER would say that to their 16 year old. In last night’s programme, Jack’s parents had gone through the unimaginable. Is anyone here going to tell them that they shouldn’t have let their son go to ballet school? Do you think it’s not something they’ve asked themselves over and over again? Of course we have to look out for our children. But we should also let them try for their dreams, and use the talents they have. As much as we’d like to, we cannot shelter them from everything. And we should be able to trust that they will be safe at school.

Richard, thank you for providing that information. All I would point out is this: 1. That just because “no bullying was reported to inspectors”, it doesn’t automatically follow that none took place. 2. That a school can have all the policies in the world, but it doesn’t mean they follow those policies to the letter. 3. Sometimes, it’s not what is or isn’t said that’s the problem. As one of the young women featured on the programme said, it’s the “coded messages” that are often the problem. The little comments here and there, that seep into the recipient’s subconscious but pass other people by. Sometimes, it’s not as obvious as being audibly or visibly bullied; being ignored and given no corrections at all is equally as upsetting and worrying to a dance student as being picked on. There’s a reason Emotional Abuse and bullying is sometimes called “death by a thousand cuts”, or Boiling Frog Syndrome. It’s subtle. It’s insidious. Often, people can’t even identify the problem until it’s too late. And if, as a child or teenager, you think you’re the problem (too fat/too heavy/too unfit/not committed enough/not good enough etc), you internalise that. What are you going to tell an OFSTED/ISI Inspector? Nothing. Nothing bad, certainly.

Possibly, but let’s remember that PdD work is not the only reason for teachers encouraging thinness and weight loss, nor is the body shaming limited to girls. It’s just one element of one problem with our ballet schools.

The programme makers spoke to around 50 former students. Not all of them may have been willing to appear on screen. The fact that the resulting programme was only half an hour long does not mean that there was no “proper investigation”.

Not the case, in my experience.

As a dance parent, no, this is not a solution. Did anyone stop watching Gymnastics after the abuse by coaches and team staff was highlighted? I doubt it, because what would that have solved? Nothing, in my opinion. Teachers need to stop teaching “the way they were taught”, because it “didn’t do them any harm”. And not just full-time schools; local schools too. We need to stop taking 11 year old children into full-time training, then assessing them out 2 years’ later for going through puberty. Schools in receipt of government funding need to be more accountable. If students make it through 5 years of lower school training, there should not be years where no students (or even 1 or 2) suddenly aren’t “good enough” to get into the associated Upper School/6th form. If you have been accepted into the Upper School, you should stand a half decent chance of graduating after 3 years. This is not the case. @LukeJennings wrote about this issue - at RBS - over a decade ago. Yet nothing seems to have changed. There are other problems with UK ballet training, as well. Anyone can set up a “Ballet School”. There can be one or two “Directors”, but there is no requirement for a 16+ “school” to be inspected. These privately run enterprises can do whatever they want, with zero accountability. There is no board of governors, nobody independent to hear complaints, no comeback. They are free to do whatever they wish, including bully, shame, and abuse. Should we regulate and inspect ballet training? I think so. Should Teachers have to take regular courses in best practice and appropriate handling of students? Again, yes, imo. You can have been THE most wonderful dancer but still not be a good teacher. Should proven abusive teachers/staff be removed, as they have in gymnastics? Yes. Should we do away with Lower School training, especially boarding schools where parents may only see their child in person once or twice a term? Perhaps. Should schools support talented students through puberty, instead of assessing out? I think so. Should we punish dancers who have made it into the company by stopping watching them? No. What would that achieve?

Ballet.novice stated that the culture of fear which stops current students and dancers raising their heads above the parapet “is not true”. If they meant “that was not MY experience”, they should have said so. You cannot say, categorically, that someone else’s lived experience is “not true”. And I absolutely did NOT call anyone a liar.

Which were quoted. Therefore, the documentary was as balanced as possible.