Kerfuffle

I would also recommend Luke, he noticed that my daughter needed to bring her weight forward. He can look at how she’s performing steps and tell you what needs to be done. He’s a lovely guy too. How old is your daughter ? 

Ah I see this  is probably something I have missed along the way, thank you for the explanation. 
I would imagine the curtsying was an old tradition dating back to De Valois’s era! 

Are you talking about the abuse at ballet schools case? I was writing in a general sense about competition culture, how it affects school intake, nothing to do with Panorama or anything related to it. 

I’m just commenting in general, it’s something I’ve observed that’s all. I want this thread kept open too! 

1 hour ago, Roberta said:

 I don't think I am missing the point, I'm being very mindful, however, of what I said above about pending court action which brings constraints on discussion.  

 

The quote you gave is really very good and one with which we can surely all agree. It is possible the current AD thinks that only by being a participant, as judge and teacher, in these competitions can they be changed to become a far more healthy environment for the young people entering, and an enriching experience.  I think there have been changes over times, which is all to the good. 

The competitions themselves are fine and can offer good opportunities to perform for the dancers. An AD spending  a massive time at them and very little at their  actual school is the problem, if the current pupils are neglected or even worse seen as easily replaceable by a shiny new toy. Ballet training is also about the day by day discipline of gradually improving and learning your art form. That’s what should be the focus I think. 

I wonder how the year 11s compare at WL to those at other schools such as POB, Dutch National? When they offer places at the upper school are a good  amount of them coming from such top schools and not just competitions? At an upper school there are bound to be dancers from all over Europe and beyond. An AD can still go to these competitions at the top levels and have a presence in a school. They can still know their students too. Perhaps expecting just one head for lower and upper school as well as all the other CEO demands is too much. An ex governor  on Instagram who I think people are aware of on this forum said this job of AD CEO used to be split between three different roles. I’m no expert but it sounded like there was more accountability. It would be lovely if the schools reflected Ninette de Valois’s original vision, for an English style to be developed. I don’t mean everyone needs to be English, just an emphasis on what makes RB unique. 

5 hours ago, DD Driver said:

 

In our experience, of the Australian YGP semi-finals, every moment counts, as a moment to show yourself.  Getting to the YAGP NY Finals is just one opportunity.  Larissa and/or her team are watching, talking to some entrants and taking lots of videos that may be sent directly to AD's.  If a dancer knows the schools or companies that they are targeting then they can communicate this in their entry & at the event, if asked.  Good matches can be made, such as an offer or scholarship for: a place, short term visit or summer intensive.  Yes, YAGP like who they like - as do all AD's.  Yes, it also helps if you are already known to them e.g. attended in previous years.  

Yes Larissa is always watching and will step in to help if she thinks a dancer has potential - she gave my DD a scholarship and was very supportive. What I meant was that unlike Prix de Lausanne the classes don’t directly contribute to your results on stage. Building up a reputation is advantageous - I think this is where a lot of British dancers are late arriving at the party! It seems like an expensive way to get into a good school, rather than auditioning directly but if you’re based overseas and want European training I guess that it could be a good idea if you can afford it! 

12 minutes ago, Roberta said:

 

Don't YAGP contestants also have to participate in earlier rounds, semi finals and those include masterclasses and class? YAGP broadcasts (all on YouTube) untold hours from all over the world of class as well as the final stage competition dances. I don't think all a contestant has to do is turn up and perform on stage to be judged solely on that performance? 

 

https://www.youtube.com/live/8k9_VFG6krM?si=ufKhjj9jdeUE7bKK

 

There are masterclasses at every event that all the participants attend but they aren’t scored and of those  the only class that really matters is the scholarship one. You can make it to the final, be placed and still not get a scholarship, they are independent of one another. 

The problem with YAGP is that you only have to perform one solo, the same one in the final as the early round. This means you can choose one that only shows your strengths and get away with hiding your weaknesses. Opera equivalent competitions  expect singers to perform across several genres, different languages etc. They are also mature performers who are ready for their repertoire. Class lays your technique open for all to see. Ultimately a dancer has to be able to blend in a corps so it’s important that they will fit in if that is the purpose of entering a competition. 
I think there are entries from British schools (but perhaps not British nationality) in Prix de Lausanne this year. At graduate level there are fewer British dancers in top schools. @Neverdancedjustamum
It’s great to see more British dancers in YAGP, some of which did well. Perhaps this will translate to more younger ones in Prix de Lausanne. 

I agree not much point in doing YAGP once you’re at one of those above mentioned schools! It’s more of a problem if the company then recruits only from competitions, ignoring those that they have been training in their schools. Part of upper school training is learning to dance with other peoples as one body (corps). 

@Birdy I’ve always wondered how most American dancers (not at affiliated schools) get into companies - there seem so many more  options in USA in comparison to here. I met a lot in Italy at a YAGP summer intensive this summer with my daughter and it seemed like a non stop whirlwind of competitions and then multiple intensives all summer (not necessarily scholarships). Exhausting! Do most of the ones at competitions do it strategically or for the fun/glory  of it? Some had enormous instagram followings and were ambassadors for a lot of the dance brands. They seem to post something every day ! The people I know at those types of schools tell me that only the best get a chance to do solos at competitions  but it seems as though they are still paying a lot of money to be there (I heard several hundred an hour to be coached!). I got the impression that going to train in Europe is very prestigious and can help getting work back in USA, is this true? 

You can get a job contract through YAGP and Prix de Lausanne. YAGP spans a much greater age range including under 11s (pre-competitive) so you are right @Jan McNulty a lot of the prizes for dancers are school scholarships (a year or a short visit) and various summer schools. Some schools have very high success rates and the sucessful individual dancers become YAGP ambassadors. These get invited to perform at events and are almost guaranteed to place or be in the top 12. Anyone can apply to compete but I think the earlier you start the more time you have to get a reputation - and it’ gets very expensive with all the coaching etc . The ADs of the schools who judge are used to seeing the same dancers all the time. Prix de Lausanne is for older dancers (15 +) so some might be seeking an upper school place but there will be others who want to get a job and if they win they can choose the company they join. Prix de Lausanne is very selective although a fair amount are also from the competition circuit. This is what I understand but I’m open to correction. 

56 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

But have to bear in mind the likely huge expenses both in terms of entry fees/travel/accommodation… not to me too private coaching (unless a school favourite & so coached ‘in house’) and even I’ve heard that parents pay the travel, hotel & subsistence costs for teacher to travel & attend alongside pupil! Further adds to the elitist feel sadly coming ever back into ballet training…. There never was an even playing field (just like in most high level sports training I guess) but it’s sadly limiting just who makes it….& again engendering very similar styles of dancers to comp winner virtuoso types as opposed to well rounded artist…. My personal opinion & indeed by no means sweeps across board but the do feel in too schools too much same old same old of the super bendy, super turners, super jumpers etc etc but rarely see heart wrenching story telling that can send me to another world & elicit emotions….again all just personal opinion 

Social media and being known on the competition circuit (many years worth of expenses), which school you attend have a big influence at YAGP. I think expecting real story telling is almost impossible in just a few minutes which is why it’s all about the tricks. Contemporary is also about contortion and fake emotion. These days lots of Prix de Lausanne are ex YAGP dancers, I don’t know if it’s any better. Just my observations of course! 

53 minutes ago, Betty said:

Can anyone tell me, are Upper Schools usually for entry aged 16? Are there any that do entry at 18 to allow for children to do A levels? Do many get accepted at Central at 18 if it is aimed at 16 year olds?

If they are entry at 16 are they essentially like private schools ie full fee payment unless on state benefits or extremely gifted and get some kind of bursary?

Hi Betty funding for UK applicants is available in the form of the Dance and Drama Awards (DaDa) for Trinity diplomas - the school will allocate these but sometimes there isn’t enough money for everyone to benefit, depending on the intake. This reduces the fees from 21,000 to at most £7,000 on a sliding scale to almost nothing according to your income. If your income exceeds 90,000 you have to pay full fees. The maintenance funding is available also but only on those with a smaller income. Scholarships are sometimes offered to particularly talented students or those who have won competitions. 
Some upper schools offer degrees such as Central and with this comes student loans of £9,000 a year. 

@Kerfuffle  I think that should read "British ballet was known for its petit allegro......

That was the real thing I noticed when watching both Fonteyn and Seymour in the first Magic of the Dance programme.  Their arms and hands were glorious, and I still can't get over how fast the Sleeping Beauty pdd was.  All performed by Seymour looking as though it was the easiest thing in the world to perform at that pace.  
 

I was thinking while watching The Magic of Dance just how confident Margot was about British ballet at that time (80s) like British ballet still had a clear identity. Fonteyn and Seymour really did have beautiful arms and musicality. I am sure with a bit of old school training that fleet of foot quality could return! I also loved Le Corsaire with Nureyev. 

32 minutes ago, Fonty said:

 

Absolutely.  I am told that today's dancers really don't like Cecchetti, and hate classes devoted to it.  I don't know why; I did Cecchetti classes when I was a teenager and loved them.  Been so long since I did them I can't remember exactly what was included, but I believe it was brilliant at correcting tiny errors in body alignment and placement.    

 

I really don't think today's dancers are better overall, just different.  Yes, the majority of men can jump higher and do more spins that the males of the past.  But as far as the women are concerned, broadly speaking athleticism seems to be the key attribute now, rather than artistry.  Watching Fonteyn's Magic of the Dance programme only emphasises what seems to have been lost.  

It seems like a different sort of athleticism, one based on grand allegro. British ballet is known for its petit allegro from what I’ve read - speed of footwork with a lovely lyrical upper body. Competition culture seems to lead to the upper body being neglected alongside real artistry and musicality (not a pasted on smile). 

I think I need to rewatch the programme but as far as I recall “lengthen your lines” was a general statement not a correction in class (probably to avoid saying something more directly critical).

It’s awkward making complaints about specific teachers, we had this experience at a regular primary school too. It takes a lot of courage. 
 

.
 

My DD’s experience of upper school has been great for advising her on being properly fuelled for dance. She now understands the relationship between bone  injuries and nutrition. This had never been explained to her before and thanks to the school she now eats better than ever before. They are mostly dancing from 8am until 5 or 6 pm  so it’s incredibly important. Perhaps in lower schools the children are doing fewer hours and going through puberty so there is more  of fluctuation  in weight but still that is no justification for comments such as “lengthen your lines” as quoted in Panorama  

My daughter is at vocational school right now. The programme was broadcast in her first week of term. Her friends who had come from various lower schools both here and abroad were not at all surprised by its contents but she was, having been at a regular secondary school up until then. This really is a chance for reform, and as Anna C says, , even one student leaving (or being assessed out of) a UK vocational school with an eating disorder/severe mental health problems etc due to (alleged) mistreatment is one too many. 

This also means hopefully a more healthy industry as well as training environment. 

This is not so much about what is going on on this thread but the fact that these experiences of abuse are being investigated by journalists and taken seriously. The U.K. is not the only place this has happened so it’s not a matter of being highly critical of any one institution. It’s an opportunity for change that is very positive. This is the Me Too  moment for a lot of young dancers, who up until now have felt too fearful to say anything, as Ruby Foo says.

Can they opt out? As Ruby Foo says, it’s better if parents/students who have recently left can comment as they are often intimidated while still there. Unless the reports are truthful it’s a waste of time. 

What’s worrying is the fact that in spite of these reports  schools are still getting outstanding ofsteds, luring the parents into a false sense of security. 

Great advice from Ruby Foo. Stay positive. I know of several non vocational students who have got into Tring  16 hours a week is plenty. Remember you are auditioning for a school so no one is the finished product - you are looking to study there. Good luck ! 

3 hours ago, glowlight said:

Things may have changed, but I'm pretty certain that when my DD was at NBS, if someone on a DADA left, that funding was sometimes then passed to another student, or a student joining in a later year. I may be wrong though.

 

The government guidance for schools about DADAs is published https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/dance-and-drama-awards-guide-2023-to-2024-academic-year/dance-and-drama-awards-guide

 

It is up to the institution how they spend the funds that they are allocated. It doesn't specify that the funding has to go to first year students only, but it does say that it should be used to support continuing students already in receipt of DADA funding ahead of students applying for the first time.

 

 

 

 

That’s good to know - of course it makes sense that people who are already recipients should get priority but hopeful that you say it can be transferred to other students if someone leaves.

That seems very unfair, especially for self employed people or those with businesses that can fluctuate during that time. Many of the students coming  later are international so don’t qualify for the funding anyway.