Kerfuffle

6 minutes ago, Graceful said:

This is correct and they don’t really make it very clear. It’s all maybes! 
I have very good experience of the process and my comments above are correct. 
I think it’s important to stop the ‘doom’ comments in their tracks. This just adds to the whole negativity of what happens if things don’t work out. 

I agree, without negating any of the harm that has happened to some pupils in the past it’s important to stay positive, especially as a parent right now. 

A fine art degree is mostly practical although with some analysis involved so I guess not that different. I imagine having practical experience would enhance what critic’s observations. I would have thought that a good set of GCSEs would be proof of academic potential alongside. Would be interested to know if anyone’s DCs have tried this route. 

20 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

If someone has used up two years' student funding on one degree, then they can embark on an entirely different degree, but they only have two remaining years' worth of student loan available. The third year would have to be self-funded. Not all that many people have parents who can afford to support their dc for another three years, and find the money to pay for their final year on top. 

 

Yes, anyone can do Open University courses, but doing it within three years would be a pipe dream for most. Again, the question of funding and having to earn a living rears its ugly head.

So does this also apply to those doing 2 years of a Dada Trinity diploma level 5 or 6? Would the best plan be to top it up to a degree and then take a sideways step into a related MA? Just thinking out loud. My brother did arts criticism MA after a fine art degree, then was a writer and curator. I guess that a dance graduate might be able to do something similar ? 

22 minutes ago, DVDfan said:

Please, folks,  this  is a very emotive and painful subject for all who are caught up in it.

Don't let's have arguments about a single comment and what someone meant by it. Does it matter? Really? I'd hate to see this very useful and important thread - probably the most important ever on this forum, have to close down.

Let's offer support to those affected and try to explain the issues to those who haven't experienced them, so that they too can understand and in some small way be part of the solution.

It’s pretty clear that there has been a lot of painful experience here. It’s not  easy being in a situation where your child is training right now either - it might seem unimportant  to you but I did find those comments quite unfair. I don’t want this thread shut down either but we should be offering support to one another, whether our DCs dancing is in the past or present. That’s the way things will change. 

3 hours ago, Graceful said:

That’s good to hear but I do wonder what you meant by it. 
 

 

@OndineI would like to know too. I would expect more support from here, we are all somehow related to arts training so surely have DCs with similar aspirations? 

19 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Not an easy watch for the ADs and the teaching staff at vocational schools either. I don't think it was a random coincidence, I think the timing of the broadcast was deliberate.

 

I’m sure you’re right. Let’s hope it results in some good ! 

4 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

Hi Peanut 68 . This Panorama was exactly the same week as a lot of upper schools started and was not an easy watch at all for us newbies! I will  definitely follow your advice over checking how she is getting on. I think it has put me on edge now! I often tell DD it’s ok to change routes if she wants to.
It’s so sad that you felt you couldn’t express your feelings when things went wrong for you. The bust reduction comment really is awful, nobody should have to hear that. The reason why I guess Panorama was particularly shocking was that these children were still ridiculously young to be told to “lengthen their lines”, an absurd comment to those still growing ! 
A girl I knew left upper school after a few weeks deciding it wasn’t what she wanted. She managed to slot back into her old school sixth form. I don’t know if she felt embarrassed and I think everyone understood it wasn’t for her. I don’t think anything you have said sounds trite. I remember feeling the pressure to succeed at art college mostly because it was the first time I had really been given a choice so it was my responsibility to keep going. 

9 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Rather a sweeping statement & absolutely not always the case… many change from one lower vocational school to a different upper school for a variety of reasons (eg. To specialise in a more distinct type of dance like ballet or contemporary or MT or to join a degree course - this could be a finance choice a fees often less & a student loan is possible so less reliance on parental money) 

And not all lower schools have an upper school (eg YDA - nit sure of new name) and many upper schools have no lower schools (eg. ENBS/Central/Rambert/RCS & many more training places) 

Until you are in it there is no way to pre-judge whether a former happy training experience can go on in that way or may transform into a terrible time. And I’m sure it can happen in reverse that a poor lower school training experience may move into a very fulfilling upper school training time - at same institution or a new one 

I said for most not all - this is a discussion that has mostly been about the experiences of children who trained from before 16, who were the subject of Panorama. Other than the girl talking about the upper school teacher talking about cutting off parts of her body the children in the film were this age group. Surely it’s logical then that what happens at this lower stage has some affect on their later training? And yes I know of very happy upper school students who were unhappy earlier on due to their treatment at those particular  schools mentioned but I think it’s taken a while to recover from the pain and disappointment they have suffered. 
 

What I’m trying to ask  (obviously badly)  is that had these kids not had an awful time in these earlier years would their later experiences have been better? Is the ballet cult described by Luke Jennings made worse by these very early selections of children? Is the boarding school experience part of this? 

10 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

This is not true for us. My dd had a relatively happy time at WL. Just like your Dd she was completely made up to be in Upper School. It was a huge honour and she was determined to work her butt off.

Sadly, as she is injured now and has been advised not to dance any more she will need to do A levels in order that she can use her training to help others in theirs. That is her wish. Not being able to move limits the relatable areas she might have otherwise leaned towards.

Hopefully, discussing these issues helps others in the future.

I know you have explained what your daughter has been through and she was treated in the most appalling manner. I really sympathise with  her and  you too -she obviously deserved much better than this and should have been offered some guidance and the option to finish her degree at RBS.  Can she take more A Levels online? Will she recover from her injury sufficiently to be able to teach? 

10 hours ago, Ondine said:

 

On what evidence are you saying this?   I don't see that anyone posting their children's experiences here is saying this was the case?

 

I wish your children well, but any career 'in the performing arts' really isn't that straightforward to achieve. What alternatives do you envisage?

 

 

 

 

Based on the Panorama programme - these are 11-16 year olds who have been damaged by their experience at lower school. If you have been bullied, have suffered an eating disorder  or generally ill treated it’s going to affect how you respond to your 16+ training. If you’ve had supportive teachers up until then you are more likely to trust the teachers at upper school. This also happens in ordinary schools to some pupils - a bad early experience can take years to get over. I know this first hand. 
 

The arts sector is a major contributor to our country’s economy. A lot of my family and friends work in film, music and art sectors. It might be competitive but it is possible to have a career in these fields if you are interested in them. I think mine might get involved in education or teaching  if they aren’t directly involved in being on stage or behind the scenes. 

I feel it’s likely that those problems started before upper school though for most. Perhaps by the time they are there they are already a bit burned out. For someone joining vocational for the  first time it might be easier at least psychologically to switch because their whole identity isn’t wrapped around being a dancer.
 

My DD is thrilled to be finally at upper school and able to specialise in what she’s interested in and in a broader sense, theatre. I can see her in other related areas if the ballet career doesn’t happen. My son is training as a musician (singer) , he’s 18, and if he doesn’t make it as a performer he too is likely to be in the performing arts. I don’t see their situations being that different to one another or her being worse off than he is. 

1 hour ago, taxi4ballet said:

You are correct. Which can leave students leaving the profession altogether in a difficult position. They have already used up 2 years-worth of student loan, so would have to self-fund part of a degree course in a different field, and won't have sufficient UCAS points anyway to be accepted onto the course. But because they have a level 5 qualification, they cannot access foundation courses or A-levels at their local college in order to top up their UCAS points, which are lower than level 5, but a level 5 doesn't qualify for UCAS points.

 

So basically, they are stuffed whichever way you look at it.

What is so wrong about topping up to a performance degree, when that is what you’ve spent a lot of your life studying ? It doesn’t mean you can’t go on to get a job even in unrelated areas. Science and law are the closest to vocational types jobs where the training is specific but beyond that there are so many other careers that are wider in background experience. I know film makers who studied dance. 

1 hour ago, Ondine said:

 

Assuming you've achieved a decent clutch of GCSEs while in full time ballet training anyhow, then you've managed to do at least some academic work in what in a normal school would be the sixth form, then you have to begin again outside the vocational school at the age when your peers are off to uni, funded probably by the bank of mum and dad? But where? You can't simply sign on at the local sixth form college as you're too old.

 

These are young people with many abilities and talents and skills, but they can only achieve within the system they are in, and if that system is mainly devoted to producing dancers it's not going to be providing an all round education is it?

 

When you consider all the students who actually don't end up wirh a ballet career, I wonder what they all do? I wonder if there have been any studies?

 

 

 

There are access courses all around the country for 19 +, these bridge the gap between GCSES and A Levels and lead to degree courses. Even in science and engineering . Some kids at my DD’s old school were a year older than their peer group for one reason or another so were 19 in year 13. A Levels can be taken at any age. There are also foundation degrees for those without A Levels. 
 

I think it sounds as though the early vocational school experience stunts  the ability to adapt. Ballet requires phenomenal dedication but these days there aren’t as many jobs for life anywhere - I think this is what Gen Z is faced with, so as parents we need to encourage some flexibility in their ambitions. 

7 minutes ago, margarite said:

Out of interest @Kerfuffle how long do your DD’s Freed’s last? DD was fitted there a few years ago and she loved the look and fit of the pair she was given, but they lasted a matter of days (she was 12 so still a relative beginner on pointe, but has very straight, strong feet) do the advanced/pro pairs have more longevity? 

At the moment she’s using a combination of Studio Pros and also now the handmade range. She’s at vocational school so they are getting a lot of wear. I think they last several weeks but might be in rotation. They last as long as the other pairs she used to have and are much better because they bend in the right place - so the wearing down is more to do with general deteriorating  than breaking the shank which used to happen in her old shoes. 

I think that is quite a common problem, so hard to tell what a shoe is like until you are in class, and then you find you’ve wasted a  lot of money again! 
 

My DD gets her shoes from Freed London. I think they are good there, especially if your DD is a bit older (as in not looking for her first pair) so she knows what she’s looking for. She used to go to Bloch but found them very baggy at the heel (her foot shortens a lot on pointe). Freeds are shallower at the heel so don’t have that problem.

Three A levels at high grades is pretty hard to achieve even if not doing ballet on the side (let alone at vocational school)! I think something has to give. 10 GCSEs was bad enough last year for my DD! She was at ordinary state school, so  no easing off for the sake of ballet training! In the end there is no easy solution, you either end up compromising your ballet training or your academics.

I think other art forms are also extremely competitive. Fine art for example often has fads where however talented you might be your work can be ignored for not being in vogue. Classical instrumentalists have to be devoted from a very young age. Sport also is a tricky area, I only know a bit about tennis which is extremely demanding, expensive with only a tiny proportion making it.
 

What’s important is that young people feel supported and if need to can adjust to a different path. How many JAs make it through to upper school? I would guess very few, but they will still have had an enriching experience. Obviously the earlier you are in your training the lower the odds of making it so keeping children’s identity broader is a good idea - they don’t all have to be professional ballet dancers. There are so many related and unrelated fields to explore.

Yes it’s always been international  - but this doesn’t justify the lack of success of home trained students into upper school . The truth is that there was only one who got into upper school, from the original year 7 cohort. 

There are multiple factors involved in the exodus of British in WL. The present year 11 I think were the first to experience the major assessing out  at the end of year 9, having come to the end of the foundation course. In the old days it was a yearly thing, a slower trickle out. 

I don’t believe there is any reason why RBS  should be any different to Paris Opera Ballet which has a majority of French children. We aren’t that different as a nation or culture, fundamentally. 

YAGP creates baby ballerina celebrities - Instagram queens (and kings) who have huge followings. Because they are ambassadors there’s a natural expectation for them to win. These competition schools offer extremely intense training and the scholarships set up means their constant stream of foreign talent appearing at the affiliated schools in Europe. I guess the contrast with slower teaching is stark. 
 

I hope that Panorama is the starting point for improvements for British dancers. They (and their families) deserve better. 


 

52 minutes ago, Ondine said:

I'm not sure that the Royal Ballet has a 'look' though.

 

A quick mental runthrough of its dancers, male and female, from top rank to trainees, makes me think it doesn't, really.

 

Yes all dancers need to have certain attributes, but this isn't a company that demands all look the same?

 

 

 

 

I don’t think their upper school has a look either. The only similarities seem to be in year 7 and JAs - that is when you see the same build/proportions. By year 10 they look much more varied - maybe because this is the age where the international students become a majority and are often YAGP winners. 

Brilliant post @Anna C. Maybe finally all the issues you’ve mentioned will be addressed. It’s about time! There really isn’t much escuse for the sorry state of things. 

6 hours ago, Anna C said:

Yes, this is vital in my opinion.  That GCSE/audition period is exhausting and ridiculously busy BUT so important.  If you have the best GCSE grades you can manage, in a range of facilitating subjects (eg Maths, English Lang, then preferably a language, at least one science, and either Music or a humanity), you’re in the best position to change pathway if necessary.  

That is so reassuring - my DD has a good set which I hope will stand her in good stead in the future. It was a fairly hideous slog but worth it ! 

That makes sense. One girl got in after the summer intensive and a few girls got offers at the YAGP finals I think. 

I totally get what you’re saying but my DD is new to vocational school and is delighted to finally be able to devote herself to ballet. Juggling 10 GCSEs at an ordinary secondary school and dancing  late every evening nearly wore her out. I think she’s so happy to have the academic content of her course relating to her dancing, there really isn’t any need for her to be pushing herself with other subjects. 

The good thing is though that you don’t have to pay it back unlike a uni loans. I feel grateful it exists - it’s  much harder for the international students.