Beezie

@Swanwings That is so great to hear!  My daughter is not naturally bendy.  I know it is hard for her to be in class with girls who can have insane extensions and back flexibility with little effort or practice.  It’s easy to say “I just wasn’t built that way.”  That is why it is so nice to hear that hard work over time can pay off too!  And that puberty didn’t decrease flexibility (which I hear is often the case, but may be aimed more towards those super bendy girls.)

We’re looking also.  If you use the search function, there are some older threads.  I do love that the program includes contemporary.

 A ‘No’ for us.  
 

Might be somewhat unpopular, but as a parent I appreciate the somewhat objective opinion from RBS….even if I don’t like the answer.  Every other opinion I receive is from someone I pay, who directly benefits from more class, privates etc.

Anyway, ballet is an expensive sport with a greater and greater time commitment.  It is good to be measured in our expectations, as parents.  

At this point, we must be talking after Easter for feedback.  Keep us posted if anyone hears anything.  I assume ‘accepts’ may get the first notifications.

Banning participation in other programs, during the training term is extremely common in other countries.  Sometimes there are valid reasons and self-serving reasons.  Unfortunately, those conversations end up so muddled that it is really hard to tell.

We’ve had to span multiple studios one year, out of schedule necessity.  We kept is a secret with one of the studios, which felt awful.  I cannot tell you the stress we felt when the mandatory recital schedules came out.  By luck, it all worked….but honestly, it made something that was supposed to be fun be very stressful instead.  (Having one studio in-the-know and willing to accommodate helped a lot.)

On the other hand, I lived in one town where the two competing dance schools seemed to purposefully schedule things in conflict.  Open houses on the same days.  Summer programs on the same day.  It seemed planned to prevent families from investigating other opportunities.

Anyway, I agree with the above comments that RBS seems to bridge dance and a cultural-experience.  It would be a shame for a teacher to try to ban that activity.  (But they don’t necessarily need to promote it either.)

(To clarify on splitting studios.  We were doing different genres at the different studios, so the ballet training was consistently at one studio.  Hence, I felt very justified, aside from the recital issues.)

Hi toefondue.  No message from God here, but a message from a strong, successful lady.  First, you are also strong, successful, and have potential beyond what you imagine.  Second, you are chasing a 1-in-a-million career that doesn’t even last that long….4-5 years at best.  The journey is riddled with little abuses and degradations that threaten all the beautiful things you could be.  It’s not a journey I want for my daughters.  Instead, I want them to build a life-long hobby and love, answer that ‘what-if’ question if they want to, and then move on.
 

I probably sound like a parent, but I am one.  Education is your ticket to happy and successful life.  You don’t even have to be the smartest.  But you do need to be hard working….which I am sure Ballet has taught you a lot about.  There are so many great careers where your success and fame depend mainly on your hard work….not genetics, luck and other people’s judgement of your worth.

So I don’t want you to tell you to give up your dream….but explore some other dreams too.  And ask God (I do a lot)….but please, please, please don’t ask a forum for Godly advice.  We don’t have it…..and anyone who claims to, is not someone you should trust.

6 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

There is also a tendency in dance (especially ballet)for the same 'types' to always get the lead roles.....

Unfortunately, that’s hard to change.  But multiple castings can help.  There are also ballets with ample ‘spotlight’ characters that are ideal for giving many dancers a moment to shine.  Sleeping Beauty is the one I am most familiar with.

But even then, being a main is great!  But as someone who got minor parts in plays and musicals as a kid, it is still enjoyable.  It is being part of the team and building something greater than your individual part.

@Swanwings

You completely hit on my second desire for improvement in the ballet world.

I would love to see pre-professional dancers coached in planning their TWO careers:  the professional dancer and the career that comes AFTER professional dancer.  Even if you make it, there is always going to be that second career.

I think young ladies can fall into some pretty dangerous traps when they single-mindedly want a dance career.  Unfortunately, I think it opens them up to being taken advantage of.  
 

But if every dancer knows her two careers, than perhaps they have that ‘little extra’ bit of something needed to push back when being bullied, manipulated, influenced.

You are absolutely correct that dance builds skill sets for success:  I have seen serious dancers become doctors, physiotherapists, engineers, traders, finance executives, studio owners, directors of dance festivals…..and of course, dance teachers.  These are people I have bumped into by chance; no dance connections.  These are incredible second careers!  
 

Are we getting to our young dancers early enough and helping them understand their full potential?  Should vocational schools help our dancers do this?  

Again, I feel like other sports do better and training children for their pro and after-pro careers.  Or at the very least, young adults may go to university and get a degree while seeking a pro sports career.  I wonder if we could do more on this front in ballet.

@Allwrong  Why do we have to wait for these opportunities?  Many of people on this forum have daughters and sons who are professionally trained, but have struggled to find professional degrees.  They could be business owners!  And the opportunity of acclaim as a choreographer is probably 3x as likely by staging amateur performances (vs, say, teaching).  I am not a dancer and regrettably have a full time job…..but if I had the time, I would whole-heartedly throw myself into organizing something like this.  ….or at least mentoring a young adult who maybe needed help with the organization/business side.

As a side note, many US schools put on these productions annually or biannually.  It is a huge production….but if that is your full job?  And there is experience to pull from in the industry.

Honestly, I felt a little bad saying this could be profitable….as I think most arts should be no-profits.  I meant to say that this could ‘turn a living wage’ for the organizers….but could absolutely be a non-profit or charity organization.

If we could bring a positive element to dance culture, what would it be?  Is there a way to get there?  Are we part of the puzzle?

Here’s my input:

I see children who immerse themselves in a sport, maybe with pro aspirations or just ‘serious amateur.’  Along the way, they play many games, have championships, create achievements.  If they fall short of professional, they still have memories of being a star in ‘that one game’ or ‘for that one goal.’  If they fall short, they still succeed.

Then I look at ballet.  Hour after hour of class.…but professional aspirations lead to very little.  (It is 1 in a million, after all.)  No chance to be Clara or Gisselle or the Firebird.  What are our children working toward?  If their professional aspirations fail, they have fewer fond memories of that ‘one moment in the spotlight.’  And, let’s be honest, many year-end recitals fall short of the magic of the Nutcracker or Sleeping Beauty.  But why?  Because we are waiting for perfection before we let our kids dance the classics?  We don’t think we can choreograph for a variety of ages and dance abilities?  Doesn’t that seem silly?

It just makes me wonder why we don’t have more amateur ballets?  Let young dancers experience the joy of classical productions throughout their training.  Perhaps it helps temper disappointments with lovely memories.  It helps dancers learn about stage makeup, costumes, lighting, choreography….all those things that lead to a career in the Arts.  Heck, throw in some Business lessons….theater reservations, ticket prices, sponsors.  (And the real business lesson here is that I ABSOLUTELY think this is a viable business model for ex Dancers, Dance Instructors or Amateur Choreographers.  The existing youth productions are already maxed out.  Between ticket sales from friends/family and a participation charge to cover lessons, I am pretty sure it could turn a profit….and create jobs in the Dance industry.)

So there is my idea for anyone who wants to use it.  🙂
 

What are other ideas?  Or add-ons to this one?

I actually find that the whole topic of safe/unsafe stretching quite confusing.  There seem to be a lot of philosophies out there, regarding whether any kind of partnered-stretch is healthy/safe.  It still seems to be used quite often in gymnastics and rhythmic gymnastics.

I am a little confused about whether this thread is about inappropriate touching or unsafe stretching….or both.  

Dance is very full of things that register as wrong.  Queue the competition feeds with 5year olds in full makeup, hair pieces and false lashes.  Unfortunately, not the first and not the last.

US still offers music (instrument or choir) in most public schools.  Usually around Gr 4 or 5, children choose an instrument or choir.  They then receive group instruction in-school.  And honestly, group instruction is all they need in those first years.  

It is sad to hear that this isn’t the standard everywhere.  For most US kids, they see this as their first ‘important’ school decision and look forward to it immensely.  Picking your instrument comes with excitement I could only equate to the Hogwarts sorting hat.  It is also economically inclusive, for the most part…though instrument rental of $100-$200/yr could be taxing to some families.  Coming from a family that struggled to make ends meet, this was the one thing they COULD give me.

Most US kids go into music with no pressure or professional aspiration….it’s just cool and fun.  It sticks for some, and others get bored and move on to sports, art etc.  It is up to the student to make of it what they will.

Haha, when my daughter was 3 and in a weekly tutu class, I thought ballet would be like music.  I very naively assumed kids just ‘did it for fun’ until teen years….and only then decided if it was going to be a serious activity.  Que ‘rude awakening.’  I seriously went through stages: Disbelief, denial, validation, acceptance….  I joined the forum while in ‘validation’ mode….maybe now closer to acceptance? 😂

Good luck to your budding musician!  That was my forte in school and both my kiddies do it too (the non-dancer to a greater extent.)

We have started going to the Music Universities in the area.  Commonly, students will post advertisements for lessons there.  We have gotten some of the best budding music teachers from that strategy.  Plus I always feel great paying university students, as I know they are just starting out in the world. And their age usually makes them more relevant to my kids.  ( The next best option is to ask a secondary school for recommendations….they usually have a list of favorite private teachers for each instrument.)

Prior, we went to more established music teachers and had some really poor experiences.  Grumpy, too strict teachers…some with questionable music skills themselves.  Or they wanted to turn my children into little prodigies, with constant disappointment when my kids were only learning on a ‘normal’ trajectory.  Plus $$$.

Music is so different from the dance world.  It is not nearly as cut-throat and competitive.  In fact, when my older daughter got into music, I breathed such a sigh of relief as I knew she would be hanging with a good, friendly, studious, and supportive crowd.  The band/orchestra kids in school are always very grounded and wholesome.

@KanangraWe are at a pre-pro school in Continental Europe.  8-11 yrs do 2hrs a week.  11-13 (pre point) do 3hrs a week, and may add some private instruction if they need to work on specific exercises for pointe.  At 14+ the hours get very heavy, if children want to continue a professional trajectory.  At this point, the best look at vocational schools (usually with boarding.)

Coming from US, the hours prior to age 14 are significantly lighter.  I think it is assumed that the younger kids are trying other sports, which lead to full body conditioning.  

Both ways seem to make fine dancers.  European dancers who ‘make it’ tend to also dance longer.  I always wondered if this was based on the structure of their contracts or less injuries due to less rigorous training at a young age.  I also suspect the ‘self selection’ is higher in Continental Europe.  There is less of an “everyone can do this” attitude by 11+, and clear teacher-preferences start to develop for children with the right anatomy.  (I’m not certain about Australia, but it is rare for a US teacher to ever tell a student or parent that the child is not fit for ballet.  That conversation may happen, but not until rather late…like late teens.)

The downside is that there seem to be fewer opportunities for “in between” training at 14+ in Continental Europe.  In the US, there are plenty of schools that can continue to challenge a dancer through various stages of pointe and performance if they want to take a ‘middle road’ and still maintain dance as an after school activity.  This is a nice option if they want to gain competence without becoming professional….or if they want to push the decision to later in their teen years.  They could still potentially catch up.

Here, in continental Europe, the recreational dance programs for 14+ are VERY recreational.  …as in maybe only 2x per week.  The teens may experiment with pointe shoes, but without much technique.  If they go this route, it is clearly just for fun and they will never bridge the gap to something more.

Looking at UK, I think it is different.  It seems like 14+ can still get high quality dance training outside of a vocational school….though that may be location dependent.  I am sure any city always has a better number of opportunities.

I feel like I post about this a lot, but I also wasn’t expecting how different dance culture would be when taking an expat assignment.  Keeping my daughter in dance has felt like a cultural challenge.  As a mom, you think you know how it works.  Then you move and the rules/conventions are completely different…..and you are trying to be the ‘go between’ so that your child’s experience is more smooth.

I’m curious.  How is tibeal torsion viewed?  (Ie  when knees are straight and feet are slightly turned out due to a mild twist in the tibia.). In plié, feet are at 180 but knee alignment is over the big toe naturally.

In the mentioned ‘flat’ aesthetic, I assume it would still be a fault as the dancer isn’t equally as flat in the knee placement.  Am I right about that?

4 hours ago, Nama said:

Silent women standing in line doing as they are told without an opinion is no longer for her !!!

Good for her.

Isn’t the stereotype of ballet so funny?  Quiet, compliant, female muses (usually in an old fashion, gender-stereotypes plot lines) trying to please a ‘usually male’ choreographer/director who judges them 50% on looks and 20% on connections/favoritism.  If you think about it like that, no mom would say “Great career choice; go for it!”

I know I just distilled a whole artistic industry into its most negative qualities….so don’t take that too seriously.  But that is the underlying culture each dancer will have to fight.  And unfortunately, those fights aren’t from the ground.  To be effective, you really need to usurp the director/choreographer after ‘playing the game’ for years.

Your financial banker daughter will have a better chance of rocking-the-boat in her current position.  If she wants it, her chances or getting onto the Board of Directors or Trustees of a major ballet company is probably in her grasp after 10-15 years in a successful finance career.  From there, she will have real voting power and can change the ballet industry 500% more effectively than being a dancer.  Keep her focused on the mission of ‘cultural change’ because there is more good she can do.

Thank you, @FlexyNexy, for sharing.  It’s so easy to get sucked into the dance machine, as little-girl ballet classes involve into something more.  …and more, and more, and more.

Hearing things like this remind me to keep the perspective that dance is a lovely extracurricular activity to develop along with everything else in childhood.  And even if the perspective is appropriately measured, Ballet still has a strange layering of constructive and toxic behaviors all wrapped up in one. It’s hard to navigate for child and parent alike.  

1 hour ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

There are very few in the class who weren’t previously JAs (I’d say less than a quarter), but those who weren’t were all in the finals for White Lodge.

Haha, that may not be a great sign for us.  We  only had Mid-Associates interest, so weren’t trying for White Lodge. 

My daughter tried out for an Associates program.  They had an impromptu dance section, which surprised her and (as a result) made her a bit nervous.  But I love the idea!  
 

They set-up a story, and then asked that the children dance-out the story in any style of their choosing to a recognizable tune.  How great is that?  It was refreshing to see some testing of creativity and expression.

Fully agree with glowlight.  There is a huge gender gap, even though dance (recreational and professional) is like 90% women.  I have seen some phenomenal choreography skills from women, but unfortunately they get written off as “just a dance teacher.”  
 

I am not in the arts.  But I am a woman in a traditionally male role.  It is hard, and you aren’t given the respect men tend to receive by ‘default.’  You need to make sure your talent is superb, because skepticism will cause people to dig harder and question more.  But there is internal reward for breaking stereotypes.  You also know that your struggles leave the occupation a better place for the next generation of women.

All the best to your daughter.

I know this is an old post, but thought worth a comment.  My almost-11 year old has gotten a bit of a foot growth-spurt.  Her arch has increased a lot.  And with the length of her foot increasing, she is also able to flex it more in the middle.  This shows a hint of an instep, which wasn’t visible before.  
 

I was surprised how quickly this happened and without any special training/excercise.  Sure enough, some medical articles say that a percentage of late bloomers don’t develop their full arch until 11-13yrs (and even later for boys.). It just goes to show that the body is an incredible thing.  Placing too much emphasis on physical characteristics too early may be misleading, at least some of the time.

As a side note, it also reinforces why to wait on pointe.  Who knows if pointe would affect that development, but maybe better to let nature run its course.

Also interesting to hear about Eistedfodds in music in Australia.  
 

The US has musical solo and ensemble integrated into its school program…and I have always considered it one of the most healthy forms of competition.    Your piece is scored 1-5, so most students end up competing against their own personal expectations.  While higher awards are usually given, the schools usually de-emphasize these.  I don’t even remember award ceremonies….just the band director saying how proud he was that we had five 4-star and two 5-star performances within the school.  
 

In my opinion, it is just the right amount of competition for growing and developing children.  No profit. No politics.  Just a performance opportunity with a score and some discerning judges’ comments.

5 hours ago, Kanangra said:

Yes and in recent years the proliferation of American style comps (a la Dance Moms). I always hated it when people referred to it as a sport, but you're right, if only the arts got anything like the funding sport does!

A lot of Americans don’t like American style comps…..but everything associated with raising a child in middle-class America ends up being a competition.  These Dance Shows have figured that out how to capitalize on that to maximize profit.

Lots of good debate on whether American style comps are good for children.  Very few children bridge that competition track to ballet….and a lot of times, the time spent training for comps substitutes real ballet classes.  I also think injury rate is higher.  But perhaps satisfaction is as well, as friend-groups form and everyone gets an award.  (I continue to worry it is misplaced satisfaction.  Staging a performance should be just as satisfying.)

The only positive I take from American style comps is that it lets teachers showcase their choreography.  In a world where it is extremely hard for female choreographers to break into the industry, dance comps is one of the areas where it is attainable.  ….but now we start talking about a real conflict of interest.  Is participation for the good of the student or good for the teacher?  And why can’t we break gender biases without creating a competition-circuit monster?

I would also say that American comp families are almost a whole other genre.  I don’t think they seek dance-as-a-career.  Rather, I think they are seeking an all-encompassing extracurricular activity to build children’s confidence in preparation for college/life.  …similar to cheer or gymnastics.  The accolades will be collected and friendships will be made through childhood and teen years, but then it is generally expected that the children move on to other things.

Interesting conversation…ballet vs Olympic sports like ice dancing.

I think I’d prefer seeing ballet go the opposite direction for children, closer to theater.  It seems like there are tons of children’s theater productions, where everyone gets to participate and perform.  This is how I would draw parallels to a ‘team’ sport, and all those great dynamics learned while contributing to a team performance.  Then there is still a place for competitions, as a standout activity for those children seeking a professional career.  I agree competitions should be affordable, though.  Airfare is a huge cost, depending on your location.  And many competitions (ie US ex YAGP) seem more like profit-generating-machines vs an accessible platform to showcase talent.

We were in one school where they put on 2 major productions, plus recital.  All kids could participate, at some level.  I didn’t realize how unique that was at the time.  Now, being in the European training circuit, it feels like children are expected to diligently train until teen years before the joy of performing really becomes an option.  If there are younger performance options, than they are highly selective and come with tons of pressure….not to mention the costs of privates, driving to practice locations that are usually non-local, etc. 

In theater, the talents still find a way to float to the top.  Same as in instrumental music.  However, in both of those, it perhaps seems more accessible to all incomes and it also feels like the children possible feel more rewarded along the journey.