The red shoes
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Posts posted by The red shoes
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7 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:
Just a reminder about the Forum's policy on discussing schools:
Thank you 🙏
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1 hour ago, NotadanceMa said:
It’s called a Developmental Training Program.
I think this kind of training creates more possibilities not less.
High profile ballet schools all look to find good students from competitions this is just how it is.
I was trying to move away from the often negative discussions that are directed at RB and explore the possibly changing landscape of dance training. It would be good to keep the thread open. 😌
It will be interesting to see what happens with the first cohort of the new RB program at Y9 and Y11. Until then we just don’t know where the students will come from; not for sure anyway.
It’s not. It’s actually called “ Foundation programme”
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Just now, The red shoes said:
😂
Read my other comments… I’m not defending them at all. I’m just trying to be a bit more balanced.. try it! It’s good for the soul. With that I bid you a good day 😊
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Just now, Graceful said:
You are making that up. You really have no idea why they were assessed out, even with outstanding reports. You are blaming physicality because you can’t think of anything else and you are defending RBS above all else.
😂
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5 minutes ago, Graceful said:
But I wonder if they won’t turn a place down because of the elitist attitude that is propagated? As though saying no to RBS is a nail in the coffin of their child’s career! (Which it most certainly isn’t).
Still those parents will believe it won’t happen to their child. From what I’ve heard children who were assessed out had not warning. Their reports were outstanding. Lulled into a false sense of security no doubt.
Perhaps their reports were outstanding but they physically had changed. RBS cannot put that on an assessment report as a reason to assess out
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10 minutes ago, Graceful said:
Bitter, let down, and angry? Thankfully I am none of those things.
You have very clearly, from your previous comments, got an idealised view of RBS. Probably because your son attends. I don’t see any RBS bashing going on. I just see people being brave to say what a lot of people think. I doubt RBS are concerned if anyone is ‘bashing’ them. You don’t need to defend them. I am sure they know they can thrive whatever is said because of the elitist attitude towards them.
I gather your son is 11/12? I doubt he has the wherewithal to quite understand the impact being assessed out could have on him. How will he feel if he has to go on to have 2 years of ‘mediocre’ training elsewhere?
I actually wonder if you’re bitter? Did you not succeed how you perhaps imagined you would?
It’s good to hear the negatives and positives of all schools. Some children do well, some don’t. Even some RBS children don’t succeed you know, even with the ‘world class’ training. Shock horror!
I DO NOT have an idealised view.. for the love of his where are you getting this from?
I’m all about balance.. something that is clearly lacking. A very nasty undertone in this thread and yes “ bashing” is happening.
You are VERY personal in your comments… assuming things of my life? What had that got to do with assessing out?
My parents couldn’t have given two hoots if I danced or not.
Yes he is nearly 12 and yes he knows exactly what could happen.. really.. do you think all the parents don’t dis ids this with our children regularly? Do you think we all sit there with rose tinted glasses on worshiping the school !?? 😂 how far from the truth.
The only thing that keeps us sending them back term after term is their desire and passion to be there…and yes , they actually love being there!! Shock horror!!
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7 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:
Yes he knows. As keeps on being mentioned on his thread, a large number of his students have actually mainly been trained elsewhere.
My points were surely obvious.
You cannot compare boys to girls.
You cannot compare experiences of year 7 to year 9. Competition hots up and the sleepover ends.
Finally, there are many ways to skin a cat. Find the right school for your child but do your research. So many (JA) parents I met had no idea of the potential difficulties which lie ahead, again, mainly for girls.
Hopefully all children are at or manage to find the right school for them.
Yes a large number of his students have been taught else where… and? He doesn’t hide this fact.., it’s all over social media every day at the minute where they have trained.
Same is starting to happen at Elmhurst.I wonder if I’m a couple of years time we will see all the “ Elmhurst bashing “ too?
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2 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:
Yes he knows. As keeps on being mentioned on his thread, a large number of his students have actually mainly been trained elsewhere.
My points were surely obvious.
You cannot compare boys to girls.
You cannot compare experiences of year 7 to year 9. Competition hots up and the sleepover ends.
Finally, there are many ways to skin a cat. Find the right school for your child but do your research. So many (JA) parents I met had no idea of the potential difficulties which lie ahead, again, mainly for girls.
Hopefully all children are at or manage to find the right school for them.
Again very condescending! Do you not think I know all this? Having taught for 23 years I know about training and the “ sleepover” as you put it doesn’t seem like a “ Sleepover” to an 11 year old. Lol if I asked him or any of the year 7’s if they felt their first year was just one giant “sleepover “ they’d look at me like I was mad!!!
Far from that.., one huge daily rollercoaster of emotions.. not easy one bit . But making them incredibly resilient in the process -
1 minute ago, AllAboutTheJourney said:
I have tried not to get involved in this discussion again because – let’s face it – no one should have to justify their own family’s decision to anyone else but the tone of some posts is getting a bit condescending.
I have said many times that this is a very useful forum (and this discussion is a great example of it) because parents of younger children can learn from those who have been through things before – and my opinion on that hasn’t changed. But just because a particular school or pathway isn’t right for a particular child doesn’t mean it won’t be right for another. Perhaps we could just bear that in mind.
Whether to accept any vocational place (for people who are personally in that position and not just speculating about it) is a very personal decision based on a huge range of family/financial/geographic/personality and other factors (and certainly not one which will be made lightly or naively by anyone who has ever read any of the threads here!).
While I do not doubt that things may have been different in the past (even the very recent past), anyone who has been involved in the vocational audition process this year will be fully aware that what RBS is offering for any incoming Y7 is a 3 year course. Like it or not, at least they are being transparent about that now.
This has hit the nail on the head.
And yes some comments have been Quite personal verging on offensive which is totally unnecessary. Everyone has their own circumstances as you say and each child is different.
Some will thrive in certain environments whilst others won’t. We just have to go with what we think is right at the time, like with any decision in life.
Thank you for commenting-
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25 minutes ago, Graceful said:
Did you tell him he could have 3 years of world class training or 5 years of mediocre training? The mental health of the children that are assessed out (and that of their friends that went through the same process and will be losing half their cohort) is what should be paramount here. Why can’t RB guarantee 5 years like the other schools? Why do they have to be so elitist? There is excellent training other than RBS in his country. Where are the British children trained who are lucky enough to be chosen for RB upper school? Where are the children trained who are successful outside of RBS?
And as to body shape, why is a male principal dancer of RB only 5’ 7’’? I’m not so sure body shape is the factor you have said it is above. RB is not the be all and end all. And you shouldn’t propagate this idea. What will you do if your son is assessed out? (If he’s under year 9). Smile and think oh well he got the 3 years? I doubt it!
It’s about time that the culture of elitistm in ballet is put to a stop. Children can do well without the main lower ballet schools in this country. There are always other options, and many of those options will keep your child’s mental health and Confidence in tact.
And just to reiterate never once have I tried to “ Propagate” the idea that RB is the best in the world as no, they are not ( in my opinion) …. Please prove me wrong. You’ve clearly followed all my comments closely …
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20 minutes ago, Graceful said:
Did you tell him he could have 3 years of world class training or 5 years of mediocre training? The mental health of the children that are assessed out (and that of their friends that went through the same process and will be losing half their cohort) is what should be paramount here. Why can’t RB guarantee 5 years like the other schools? Why do they have to be so elitist? There is excellent training other than RBS in his country. Where are the British children trained who are lucky enough to be chosen for RB upper school? Where are the children trained who are successful outside of RBS?
And as to body shape, why is a male principal dancer of RB only 5’ 7’’? I’m not so sure body shape is the factor you have said it is above. RB is not the be all and end all. And you shouldn’t propagate this idea. What will you do if your son is assessed out? (If he’s under year 9). Smile and think oh well he got the 3 years? I doubt it!
It’s about time that the culture of elitistm in ballet is put to a stop. Children can do well without the main lower ballet schools in this country. There are always other options, and many of those options will keep your child’s mental health and Confidence in tact.
Dear me, you sound VERY bitter.
I’ve never once said it’s the be all and end all!! And actually his dream is NOT to be in the RB company.., he wishes to dance with Matthew Bourne one day. He knows he is getting the best training in the Uk … and he knows it could end . We’ve talked about what he would do and where to go from there.
I am trying to give a balanced view of a VERY one sided thread where everyone is determined to bash RBS.. for reasons only they truly know.
Body type I was referring to girls mainly …. You sound very let down and very angry ..-
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15 minutes ago, Kerfuffle said:
Looking at fairly recent photos of upper school students there doesn’t seem to be a very strong type they go for which makes it all the more confusing for prospective students/parents. I would guess that they are looking for the very best technically and this comes in varying physiques and often find what they are looking for at the major ballet competitions. WL/associates is more predictable maybe. From an ancient book written in the 70s “Life at the Royal Ballet School” they are very clear that the upper school takes young people from the commonwealth countries and there is no guarantee that the WLers will progress there. I suppose that parents have to decide at 11, given the evidence, what is right for their child and if they think the uncertainties are worth it. It seems to me that the older students in Vaganova and POB retain the same look throughout which is interesting but obviously they have rigorous examination processes too which must lead to assessing out. I would say that is perhaps the difference between those schools and the British ones.
Whilst I agree the parent has the overriding decision when their child is a mere 11 years old I laid it all out on the table to my DS. I told him in no uncertain terms he could have guaranteed 5 years at another ballet school or 3 years at WL and potentially no more.
He did t even need to think .. he wanted to take the risk and good on him . He understands about all the “ uncertainties “ and still went with this choice . Despite my reservations.-
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1 hour ago, Tiaramum said:
It maybe a world-class ballet training school but look at the data. Those UK trained dancers entering in Year 7 very rarely make it to year 11/upperschool. Our homegrown talent is getting bypassed and replaced by internationals - these internationals are then passed off as been RBS trained.
Yes but you need to to look at why a large percentage don’t make it to upper school… is it really the training? Or could it possibly be that perhaps they just don’t fit the RB mould anymore ( whatever that may be at the time)? This is not to say they won’t go on to another highly successful ballet school eg ENB and have a wonderful career… there are many reasons why few get taken through to upper school and indeed sometimes it is actually the students choice to go elsewhere.. yes this happens.
Physique is a huge part and when you enter year 7 no one really knows how your body is going to change through puberty, it’s a wait and see.
Year 9 comes and unfortunately bodies have changed and may not be suitable for their ideal look for RB.
The students may be highly accomplished in technique and artistry receiving excellent reports/ awards etc but the school cannot say they haven’t taken a child through ti the next stage because their chest has got to big or hips are a bit too wide or for boys they aren’t “ growing” enough - they aren’t allowed to mention this. So you can see why it’s so heartbreaking when the dancers get assessed out and not told why .
RBS do take on a large number of international students and yes it irks me but Elmhurst are also doing this now with their upper school so not just RBS.
Currently on Social media they are celebrating their past graduates. No surprising very few started at White lodge. Most were brought in at upper school from abroad.. but they declare this and do not pretend they have trained them from a young age .
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As this thread is on “ Assessing out” I just wanted to say that at the highly emotional and impressionable age of 13 my highly respected ballet teacher whom I adored with all my heart , told my my mother and I that I would never be a Classical Ballet Dancer due to the shape of my legs ( I was knock kneed and also deep set hips so not huge amounts of natural turnout facility).
I cried for a week.. I was heartbroken 💔. My life was ruined as I knew it.
However , she was right and yes I needed to hear it and yes she did me a favour as I didn’t try and pursue a journey which would delay the inevitable. I am now a ballet teacher and ballet will always be my first love but I’m so glad she told me sooner rather than later.
So “ assessing out” is happening everywhere , just in different forms and not so highly broadcast and publicised as WL .
Everything happens for a reason… we need to believe this and trust the process-
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3 minutes ago, BalletBoysDad said:
I must admit though, (shared purely in the spirit of conversation) it does feel like parents of children who are at or are going to WL sometimes appear to be badged as a bit short sighted or naïve in their research. Like they’ve just ‘fallen for the name’ and haven’t dug any deeper.
Ask me in 3 years time, and I may well feel very differently, but at this moment in time I’m very comfortable with my DS going to WL. I did for a long time very much like another vocational school, and really liked their associates programme. We devoted quite a lot of time to the main school through invitation to participate in one of their Christmas productions with a major ballet company and shortly realised that the teacher and staff really didn’t like us or our DS, and frankly treated us rather terribly. Our face ‘did not fit’ and the feeling was reciprocal. But I’m grateful for the negative experience to know that it wouldn’t have been the right path, and to some degree we dodged a bullet. I know many people having a wonderful time in that school and wish them well. But know confidently that it is not the school for us.
We explored a number of international options, and although the aptitude was there for some of these schools, the local language was an enormous barrier. We considered not going to vocational school at all, but after talking to parents of boys who tried this route, some later regretted it as the toxic bullying of high school made some boys give up ballet for an easier school life, which is desperately sad. Others had no issues at all, so it’s often a case of weighing up the risks.
Having tried both English and Russian styles of ballet, we quickly realised that our DS is better studied to the English style, and it’s not necessarily a case of which class is the most rigorous or physically demanding.
I would also whole heartedly agree that ballet is not the be all and end all, and if it ‘doesn’t work out as planned’ it can still serve as a route to many other creative paths of study, or something entirely different.
So my point is really just to say that I feel confident that we have arrived at WL through a lot of research, discussion and leg work centred on what feels right for us as a family. Not because of a naïve belief that it’s the only route to take.
And it’s what your DS wants more than anything … we need to give them that chance if they really want …
I’ve been with WL for nearly a year and my eyes were opened before the start. I knew what to expect.. the rollercoaster .. the flavour of the month one week then not the next.. thr competitiveness encouraged by the teachers and the “ questionable”teaching methods at times… my views on the school have not changed .
My DS loves his life there ( on the whole) despite many ups and downs.. and my feelings don’t come into play. As long as he is still passionate and in it for the right reasons then I’m happy to support his journey. Child comes first and all that.
I’m sure your DS will have a wonderful journey there.-
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42 minutes ago, Whiteduvet said:
Good point about the language.
I think the experience of a boy in year 7 will be very different to that of a girl in year 9.
As a wise teacher once told me, there’s more to life than ballet (yes really). And there’s more to ballet than the Royal Ballet School
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Everyone’s choices and judgments for their children will be different. Many schools are available. Choose what is right for you and your family. Listen to other’s experiences, good and bad. Go into it all with your eyes open.
I wasn’t comparing my ds in year 7 to a girl in y9… I was merely disagreeing with a poster who said they don’t push them enough at WL and that it’s “ easy”… I was stating he sweats buckets every day .. and so do his pals .. I saw evidence of this in watching week too.
and yes we all know there is more to life than the Royal ballet school… the artistic director has actually uttered those words himself ,.. fact! So not sure what your comment means?
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11 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:
I’m not sure why that stoops low? Presumably they only post those who get through to finals or those who get a place. I don’t think they name and shame those who don’t make it?
Of course every vocational school would have their version of assessing out. What constitutes as “harsher”? My point simply is that it would be hard to pinpoint RBS training if for example those who are in their upper school are mostly not trained by them from a young age. In addition, I think statistically if you look at those who complete their training in those two schools you mentioned, there will be a higher percentage of French or Russian students who have been trained by the schools for several years and progressing through their programme through to completion.
I also think, and happy to be proven wrong, that often when matters like this are discussed here, it is usually slightly different between males and females. It is not sexism in any way but just by law of averages and reality is, there are more females vying for places in full time schools for basically the same number of places as males. Again, happy to be proven wrong, but if I were to hazard a guess, it is often also the case that more females are assessed out than males.
Just out of curiosity… have you had a child attend the school?
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7 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:
I’m not sure I would be able to pick out RBS trained dancers, for example, in an international summer intensive. Similarly, I don’t think I’ll be able to pick out RBS trained dancers in companies here or overseas unless I read the dancers’ profiles. But I don’t really know much and haven’t seen much and definitely don’t have dance training. Perhaps this is why. I believe RBS has a world-class reputation, and is definitely one of the most recognisable names in terms of vocational schools. I do think that being assessed out should not end these young dancers’ journeys as the school isn’t the only route to a dance career. It may have a world class reputation but recently, those who complete their training (third year upper) and go on to various companies are increasingly not trained by the school from Year 7. It can be argued that this is the same for other schools but I think that possibly institutions such as Paris Opera Ballet School, Vaganova and Dutch probably have a bigger percentage of “home grown” talents progressing through the years in the same school.
And RBS are very clear by telling new parents that if their child is assessed out in year 9 it definitely doesn’t mean and end to career in ballet ! I’ve listened to this being said in a meeting . It means they just aren’t right for their pathway anymore for whatever reason.. physique, strength , artistry etc. They also never suggest their way is the only way either.
I think you’ll find Paris Opera and Vaganova have their own system of assessing out and is far harsh.. we just don’t hear about it on this forum.
Did you know that when you audition for Paris Opera ballet they stick the results to the front of their gate for the whole world to see??? Hmmmm that stoops low in my eyes… far lower than RBS
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4 hours ago, FlexyNexy said:
I might be little naïve here, but being on this forum for number of years, why do I get the impression that many parents think that RB is the best what there is for their children, ultimate goal to get to JA and if assessed out, it is very traumatic not only for the child but parents?
There are many success stories for children that never even touched or came close to RB. No wonder that international students are the school’s spotlight. Speaking from our experience and having trained overseas, my daughter walked out twice from their senior summer school as it was “boring”, too slow and she did not even sweat in the class. Nice to take photos by the door, wear summer school T shirt that she uses to go to bed, maybe an Instagram post to fit within “bunheads” but that’s about it.
3 days in and she refused to come back and could not even compare it to overseas classes that they truly been worth the money. Same goes for ENB. Fun while they are little, but the talk what you hear over the border even close as Europe about the training is not glowing.
There are some wonderful teachers around here that give your child better technique, training and strength. But they are not under flashy names. I never seen a child come out the RB school door drenching of sweat or even red cheeks. Perfectly neat bun in and not a hair untucked when leaving the class. I never seen them doing physical preparation that really works.
My very close friend and neighbour has her daughter in MA. When she is wearing the tracksuits, she does not walk, but floats around. Over the covid, her mum asked whether she could come around when my DD is practicing and learn something new. That poor girl nearly fainted at the end of the routines. No strength in the ankles, no stamina, falling off from double pirouette. She is not even in full splits. How could she have sailed from JA to MA’s? God knows!
One of the well-known company dancers is God father to my daughter. He himself warned me not to even put her through their school system If I want something out of her. He himself was recruited from overseas and does not have many nice thighs to say regarding the training.
Please take this assessment as good news! You are now free or this crazy circle and in a search of fantastic training for your child. Not worrying if you have the right colour of leotard on or ribbons in the hair tight in correctly.
My year 7 DS and his fellow class chums sweat buckets in their morning ballet classes at WL… they work their butts so , so I’m afraid I have to disagree with you.-
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1 hour ago, Sim said:
Interesting that the 'privileged Londoner' aspect didn't even occur to me. What came across to me was the emotional turmoil of the journey, and a mother's love, pain and dedication....and those of her daughter. It was those emotions that got to me...and those emotions and struggles are experienced by any human being, whether financially privileged or not. Having money or 'privilege' does not stop one from getting injured, or bullied, or rejected, and that is what this book makes clear. Any ballet student can be subjected to these things, and indeed are. But I hope things have improved in the past decade or so.
Totally agree with you!!
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It was such a shame …. The very cute little year 7 bees got 9 seconds 😞. I was shouting at the tv for them to zoom in. All that hard work and effort with rehearsals etc. The dancers themselves had a fabulous time and that is something they get to cherish forever… just a shame about the lack of footage 😔. Managed to zoom in for Diversity though …..
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1 hour ago, DanceMum03 said:
My DC is terrible for remembering what has just happened so when she came out all she could tell me was that there was some stretching and some dancing 😂 but she did say that it was just like a ballet class and that she really enjoyed it so it sounds like it was a very positive experience which is lovely. Think she was so nervous and concentrated so much that as soon as she was out she left it all behind!
They always make it so relaxed for them and such a positive experience!
I don’t suppose you know how long they said till you will hear? I have an awful feeling it will be when all the auditions are over which will be end of May into June 😝
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1 hour ago, Firecracker said:
Anyone else auditioning in Birmingham tomorrow? My dd is going for a Yr 5 place at 3.30!
My student is auditioning tomorrow for year 4 place at 2pm !
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23 minutes ago, sunrise81 said:
Whoop! Summer results are out. I will have a very happy DD.... week 3
Congratulations to your DD!!
My DS also has been accepted for Week 3!!! He’s very happy 😃
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ROH World Ballet Day 2022
in Performances seen & general discussions
Posted
Darrion Sellman is astonishing for his young age… he is one to watch!!