aileen

There is no point in a person posting on this site unless s/he feels that s/he can give an honest opinion. It's not helpful otherwise. Everyone understands the sensitivities around criticising a school that other people's children are attending or wanting to attend but, provided that such criticism is measured and courteous, it is welcome on this site I think. Afab was asked about training abroad and in her response she naturally compared the standard which she saw at one vocational school in the UK with the standard that she saw at her daughters' schools in France. As sometimes happens on this site, we have strayed into another topic, namely, the differences between the vocational schools in the UK (and I'm not taking about which is the "best"). As I'm new to this site, it's possible that this topic has been extensively covered previously but, if not, perhaps someone should start a new topic dealing with this subject. What does everyone think?

Broadening this discussion out a bit, I think that a parent should ask ANY school the following questions: How many hours of classical ballet will his/her child be doing weekly? Where did their graduates over, say, the last three years go on graduation? Even if a school provides a list of recent graduate contracts it should be treated with caution. The contracts may be very short term and may be apprentice type contracts. Furthermore, the list may not be a complete list. Those graduates who do not have contracts may not be listed. You need to find out/ work out how many students graduated in any particular year and compare that number to the number on the list

Flowerdew, I think that many children with ability are working at that level in year 6 (although some will not be if their school takes a more leisurely approach to exams). However, far fewer will be attending associate classes. If your child is not attending an associate class by the beginning of year 6 is that an indication that s/he is unlikely to be accepted for vocational school? Is acceptance into an associate programme an endorsement of the child's possible suitability for vocational training in the eyes of the schools to which the child applies (in a way it is a kind of pre-sift)? Or are the associate classes important because the child is benefitting from more expert teaching from teachers who are connected with the vocational ballet world (I hope that I'm not offending anyone here)?

Tomuchtallent, if the child had no aptitude for ballet at all then I'm sure that s/he wouldn't be accepted at any vocational school. In the UK at present physique seems to rule!

The lesson which I draw from this discussion is that it is vitally important to ascertain where your child's interests and strengths lie. Personally, (and that's all it is) if I was in any doubt about the direction in which my child would eventually go I would chose a school specialising in classical ballet (assuming of course that my child had the choice) because I think that it is easier to switch from such a school to a school which trains in a broad range of performance skills than to move in the opposite direction.

Spannerandpony, we should let afab express her opinion, which is particularly interesting because she is familiar with ballet schools abroad. I think that we would all accept that the schools have different curriculae and different strengths which in turn suit different children. I don't think, for example, that anyone would go to the RBS or ENBS if they were very interested in contemporary dance or musical theatre. Tring's selling point is that it trains in a range of performance skills; they do not narrowly focus on classical ballet.

Tomuchtallent, in an attempt to find out for you the information which I think you are seeking, I have started a new topic. See the list of topics. I hope that we will get some informative replies.

Leaving aside the physical requirements, approximately what standard (RAD or ISTD) would a child be expected to be at to have a realistic chance of gaining a place at vocational school at 11?

Very interesting, Janet. You have an amazing memory.

Janet, you are a mine of information! Of course I should have remembered the Mackay brothers. Was Lynn Seymour dancing with RB or ENB on that occasion?

Alison, from one of his tweets it seemed that Guilherme Menezes performed in Firebird last night. Does anybody know what he danced? He was already down to dance in Rite as one of the elders. How often do you get twins (or siblings) in one ballet company!?

Pups_mum, I think that you have put it very well. It's great that youngsters who are not able to/don't want to become professional dancers have the opportunity to take part in these ballets.

Afab, no-one's going to start a Franco-British ballet school war! I asked for your opinion and I appreciate the trouble you have taken in posting on this topic in such detail. I was particularly struck by two things which could not be said to be subjective opinion: the intensity of the training (number of hours of ballet each week) and the low costs (sometimes free) of training. Really interesting to hear from you. Thank you.

Tomuchtallent, my daughter is not considering a career in ballet and (whisper this) I suspect that her ballet school is not one of those schools that is really geared up to children wanting to do ballet seriously. Consequently, I'm not really sure what standard a child needs to be to have a realistic chance of getting into a vocational school at 11. Some local schools insist on two or three classes a week from a young age; others don't (or can't). Some really push the children through the grades; others take it more slowly. I don't know how much weight is given to actual ability when a child applies to a vocational school. From other posts I've read on this site it seems that what is crucial is having the "correct" body for classical ballet. I am guessing that a less advanced child would get into a school ahead of a more advanced one if s/he had a "better" body, but I may not be right on this. I just don't know how actual ability (as opposed to potential) is weighed against the suitability of the body, but my feeling is that the schools take the view that a child with the right body and potential can be trained up.

Spannerandpony, most children don't seem to start intermediate foundation classes until they are around 10 or 11. There's no point(!) starting it much earlier IMO because they have to do pointe work for the exam and most schools don't allow the children to go on pointe until they are at least 12.

Thanks to everyone for posting their comments on the first of the ENB Beyond Ballets Russes programmes. I appreciate the range of views.

Tomuchtallent, I don't think that many children in this age group (in the UK) could do a double pirouette. They would have to be very advanced. Children are generally 10 or 11 when they take their RAD Grade 3 exam and I'm pretty sure that you don't do a double pirouette for this. Mind you I'm not sure of the difference between a pirouette and a turn. I thought that my daughter was doing a pirouette in her school play last night but she told me that it was a turn!

Capybara, well said. I know that this is off topic but could you tell me about the flower throw last night. I've never seen this at any performance by any company. Also, were there some debuts last night? Who were they and in what roles? I saw and very much enjoyed (and appreciated) two performances of Programme 1 and I'm going to two performances of Programme 2.

I would like to know how many students are on average assessed out of the RBS each year. For example, of the 24 or so students who enter White Lodge in year 7 how many are asked to leave during that first year? What proportion is assessed out in each subsequent year, on average? I assume that the greatest "churn" occurs at the end of year 11. I read elsewhere on this site that 14 out of the current year 11 students (who number 25) were offered places at the Upper School, which is an unusually high number. I don't know how many of them are British and neither do I know how many of them started in year 7. Does anyone else?

Quite a few of the more senior dancers at the RB and ENB are recruited from outside the company which blocks promotion of dancers (wherever they were born and trained) within the company. To be fair to the companies, there must be a great deal of subjectivity involved when evaluating dancers, particularly young dancers. I am guessing that when they are starting out very few are strong all round. Some may be less than ideal physically; some may be weaker technically; some may not have much acting ability; some may be a bit "nervy". It then comes down to how an AD looks at you in the context of the upcoming repertoire. One may overlook the physical limitations if, for example, s/he thinks that you are very strong technically. Another may forgive a poorer technique if you are a good actor. Luck undoubtedly plays an important part in any dancer's success: luck that you are the kind of dancer that appeals to the AD; luck in the form of the repertoire being rehearsed; luck that the dancer who would have taken the role that you are offered (in which you manage to excel) is unavailable. And once you have impressed in a number of small roles you will be offered larger roles leading to promotions. My feeling is that technique and confidence are prized above physique and acting ability in young dancers and that British dancers possess less of the former than their foreign-born peers. If you look at the current principals in the RB, some of them have physical limitations and yet they have made it to the top. I think that lesser acting ability would generally be something that ADs would be a bit indulgent of, taking the view that this could be developed over a period of time.

Afab, I'd be really interested to hear about your daughters' training in France. When did they start and how does the training compare to the training in the UK? You don't have to tell us which school(s) your daughters are training at if you don't want to.

John, I was never on the old ballet.co site under this name or any other name! So, anyone with a stake in a company or school (for example, Board members, major donors, employees, professional advisers such as solicitors, accountants etc) would be expected to declare themselves? Spannerandpony, I did not intend to sound accusatory. I was merely expressing an opinion which you are free to disagree with.

Spannerandpony, nobody has to justify what they spend their money on or what they post on, but IMO little interest is shown in ENB on this site. Think of the vast number of posts on one dancer's (Melissa Hamilton's) recent debut, R@J and the revival of Alice at the ROH; in contrast, not one person seems to have gone to the current ENB programme apart from me. I'm not asking anyone to do anything; I'm just making what I believe to be a reasonable observation.

I'd still love to hear from anyone else who knows of someone who has trained/is training abroad, particularly in Europe.

John, you are one of the few people on the site that actually uses his real name. There is a lot of very critical comment on this forum and yet I have never seen anyone asked to give his/her real name. Do you ask members who have a close personal connection with schools and companies to declare it?