NJH

17 hours ago, Pups_mum said:

I quite agree. There seems to be a culture of dispensibility in dance, and it's perhaps more marked in some other cultures than in this country. (It's not just dance of course, I've certainly observed the same in sport though I think it's getting less in the sports I'm involved in.) But there are definite vibes of "if they break we can just throw them out and get another one" and an acceptance that there will be a lot who fall by the wayside but that's ok, as long as enough of a suitable "product" come out at the end. Likewise we might hear things along the lines of "yes I suffered but it was worth it to get where I am" from those who succeeded, but we very rarely hear the stories of those who didn't "make it". Do they think it was worth it? What long term physical and psychological damage have they sustained? We need to remember that these are real young people and to hear their voices. Otherise nothing will change. 

dispensibility  is a   culture that pervades the UK   across all businesses / industries and Sectors  - 

in Sports and the arts it's driven by  there being  an excess of supply  combined with the encouragement of bullying anm lobbing  by  organisational practices. 

In other sectors  it's bullying / mobbing that  leads it , because  being a bully as a Manager  is often viewed as 'taking decisive action' and 'protecting the public '   this is  further  reinforced by shockingly poor 'Investigations' by  regulators  and a lack of  meaningful routes to bring the bullies or other  abuse perpetrators to account   ....

6 hours ago, Beezie said:

I think the cultures that push young dancers faster, also see them burn-out faster.  …not to mention, much higher chance of injury early in a career.

 

I’ve heard at least one professional suggest that the systems that create these child protégées may not be setting the children up for long careers.  (Long being relative, of course, in ballet.)

that said plenty of  Dancers  dancing  into their 40s  as principals now  (Pippa Moore was 44 or 45 when she  retired as A premier Dancer with Northern , Hannah Bateman was  40 + when  lockdown 1 cut her  final season with Northern off ... )   then  you've got   the Player/Manager  dancers like Tamara Rojo (ENB) and Rae Piper (Chantry)  in their 40s  and   then those who continue ( or restart ) to guest   later still  e.g. Shannon Parker /Lilly ...

 but equally  we've seen a number of the phenoms fade from view very quickly, often with suggestion that they could not / would not  integrate into a company   if they got a contract on the strength of competition results / 'fisnishing school'  place at at Upper school  ... 

That's a good question 

I'm not aware of anyone  specifically advertising  classes as Balanchine 

there are classes  out there  that are rather more 'American'  in their outlook   e.g. Nina Thilas-Mohs at Pineapple on Friday evening / or at Central on a Sunday Afternoon   - which is described  as

" Nina’s upbeat class emphasises placement, spatial expansion, speed and lyricism. Her style is informed by the Bernal Method and American syncopated musicality. Dancers and students alike are welcome to work on their technique, feel ‘up on their leg’, placed and ready to dance, whatever their background."

where's  @sophie_rebecca when you need her ! 

7 hours ago, Balletmummy18 said:

Found this topic interesting as brought back memories of my dd going on pointe. Her school wanted her on pointe at 9 years old … horrified I took her out of that school… only to be taken aside by her associate school the following year ( yr 6 )and asked why she wasn’t on pointe yet …her new local school also wanted her on pointe… I gave in .. so she was just 10 . ..& when she started WL the following year they had all already started pointe - this was 6 years ago…
 

at the pointe  when the  too early  pointe  journey  had begun across  ballet as a whole 

also the there is a wrld of difference between IF or inter pointe and variations etc

 

Just now, taxi4ballet said:

The RAD specifies that the minimum age to take their Inter Foundation exam is 11, and this exam includes a small amount of pointework; and the age to take Intermediate is 12, which has a corresponding increase in quantity and difficult of pointework.

 

So it is recognised by the RAD that there will be students with the ability (and physical maturity) to progress to pointework when they are 11. But I suspect that those youngsters would be the exception at most dance schools, rather than the norm.

 

exactly 

also Inter foundation pointe centre is a  few  releves and echappes to pointe and some classical walks on flat, a number of the examples on you tube  have the entirely of the pointe excrcises in about 5 minutes  @sophie_rebecca could comment  as someone i know has done IF   ( as  my  decision to start  working for an exam was relatively further into my ballet journey, hence the reason i'm working towards  Inter  after  discussing it  throughly with  the teacher i see for  exam work) 

looking at the resources it's  a few  basic rises, relevens  echappes and  static courus at the barre  minutes at the barre and a  couple of minutes  in the centre to do the echappe + releve  exercise, it's not  dancing a variation  and turns en pointe aren't assessed until Adv Foundation...  
 

1 minute ago, DeveloppeD said:

@Vivit was only grade 3, but I’m still proud of myself anyway. I worked so hard for it!

no 'only'  about it , you did it  

4 hours ago, CMcBallet said:

https://iadms.org/media/5779/iadms-resource-paper-guidelines-for-initiating-pointe-training.pdf

I find  those 'Guidelines'   to be  some what less than ideal and  frankly  in any other clinical  environment (even ones with a paucity of evidence and no time  or effort being spent on them ) a number of them would be laughed out of the room ,  and I  say  that is as as someone with a Clinician  background and  experience in  Governance. 

for clarity 

1.  given the discussion  ref  bone maturity  elsewhere in the paper why 12 ?   

2. total agreement, however   where is the 'consider implementing a strength and conditioning programme' to address  this  if it's soft tissue rather than bony ) 
 

3.  why ? there needs to be  evidence to  justify this - it strikes me as the kind of statement that would be made by a vocational school to  lock other teachers and students who  did  not  get it at 11/12  out   ( and given the  attrition rates of  full time vocational training ... ) 

4. total agreement 

5. total agreement 

6. broadly in agreement 

7. again a statement  that seems to be designed to lock  certain dancers out of pointe training   and  has  significant  legal  implications that obviously have not be  considered   also makes a mockery of the chance to dance / spotted type stuff ) 

all in all   some  schoolgirl  errors in sometimes purporting to be a clinical guideline to inform regulatory  postions .

 

3 hours ago, Millicent said:

But in Year 6 they will only be 10/11?

 

It worries me that if the dance school is doing this, what other bad practices they might have.

and the y6  age  associates or just starting Inter foundation  doing pointe will be doing  rises , releves, echappes and couru at the Barre and progressing to  echappers and releves  in the centre ... 

1 hour ago, Angela Essex said:

Update: I went to Capezio and Bloch in Covent Garden today and the staff were so lovely in both stores and even gave me 10% discount for NHS staff. I have to say the service in Capezio was amazing though. Also they have a bargain/sale section in the basement with Leos starting from £5. I now have 4 leotards as am planning to try them on at home and return 2 or 3. I think my favourite is a Bloch Mirella black camisole one with peacock lace trim at the front, sadly it was also the most expensive 😭. Also have a black sheer wrap skirt and some Capezio super soft tights. Job done. I won’t lie I was pretty shocked to find I was a size Large to Extra Large though 😂 Thanks everyone for your help.

dancewear  sizes are their own  unique world of evil !   

to the point where  my  Imperfect Pointes Leo is a bespoke  , because of the combination of the  girth and bust measurements means the standard XL is  too small  so it's a "1.5 XL  long" ...  the IP  strategy on larger  sizes than their 'dancer normal'  standard size range has been a while in the making  and onvce again it  appears @sophie_rebecca and i have ended up as the   larger  sizes  dancewear SMEs ...  

5 hours ago, Angela Essex said:

Aww thank you Viv! That’s a really good way of looking at things. My local class starts again after the Christmas break on 10th Jan so we will see how things go. Since I first posted I’ve joined another class (on zoom) thanks to some very kind recommendations from people on here   and am going to join a third class a week once things get started again in the new year so hopefully I’ll start to improve more soon. It’s been so encouraging how supportive people have been on here 😊 thank you 🙏 

welcome down the rabbit  hole !  
 

how do you  determine the mass of a Red Hot Chilli pepper ? 

you give it a weigh , give it a weigh , give it a weight now ... 

3 hours ago, Colman said:

I wouldn't put an absolute beginner in almost any workshops/masterclasses because they'd just be confused, but anyone working reasonably seriously  for a year or two should be able to get something from any of the ones that are aimed at adults: they generally aim at a mixed ability level because otherwise they'd never make up the numbers enough to make it worthwhile. 

 

I have a theory that "grown-ups" are really bad at being beginners. We don't expect to be clueless and incompetent and we get upset and discouraged when progress is slow when we've chosen to do hard things. Ballet is really hard, that's what makes it fun, even when it's not.

 

I've been doing ballet now for seven years, which I figure makes me roughly equivalent to a not especially talented ten year old with added knee crack sound effects.

 

Zoom is hard, learning centre work on Zoom is really hard and learning anything involving turning and changing directions on Zoom is extremely hard. All we can do is our best. 

this is spades... 

1 hour ago, Fiz said:

Angela, as you go on, you will discover that ballet is like that. One class can leave you feeling destroyed and another as if you are dancing on air. It will get better, believe me. 

and teachers and other dancers in the class  may have a different  view of  how that class went for you...  

a  constant   and repetitive  theme is that   dancers of whatever levle  and experience are always hard on themselves

2 hours ago, Angela Essex said:

😂😂😂😂 Lol hilarious this was me in the last 15 mins of class last night. I literally shut the laptop lid in a massive strop 15 mins early which I’d ordinarily never dream of doing. It was so out of character for me. I still feel awful for not staying to the end and thanking the teacher for the class. I literally feel like a bad human being 😭

 

Fab that’s a done deal then. I’m going to his Sunday Central class at my soonest possibility. Thank you 🙏 

 

Is TBR the ballet retreat? I googled it but no beginners retreats are on there. Fingers crossed they will do one ASAP. 

yes it is   www.theballetretreat.com  

in my opinion as someone who has danced with TBR  for over  4years  , i'd say the first  couple i did   i was probably  struggling   to keep up with a lot of , but  since I've  find  it  really good  and  been able to push myself and be pushed  by  the team and the  rest of the TBR family ...   

there's various  things that the TBR family have suggested to Hannah   but the past 2 years have messed that  up somewhat . 

2 hours ago, Alexander said:

"improver" may be more useful term. Or, as I like to put, know enough to get myself in trouble very quickly with limited excuses.

due to the Loaded meaning of Intermediate  in ballet, what other activties might call  intermediate is  Improvers  in Ballet

48 minutes ago, Tango Dancer said:

 

They were lovely people and she shines like the star she is.  I did find the class rather difficult because for some reason the sequences they were setting didn't work for me.  I think some of it was that they were quite long and intricate and I couldn't always understand how to get from A to B.  A complicating factor was that there was quite a lot of "do this then pivot and do it at this angle" which I struggled to work out what that meant when viewed on zoom for the way I was facing.  This is no criticism of them but more that it was too advanced a class for my ability to the degree I was finding it frustrating rather than a fun challenge.  So I stopped, patted myself on the back for trying and then made coffee.  As they say in the gambling adverts "when the fun stops, stop". 

 

I did one with Vadim Muntagirov online 2 weeks earlier and that went better for me because for some reason his way of explaining and setting exercises clicked with me and I could see what he wanted far more easily and the way he explained things made sense.  So despite the class being too advanced in technique terms I got a lot out of it.  He's incredibly gorgeous, modest, charming and has the loveliest smile as well as impossibly perfect turnout.  (I have a major crush on him).  

 

Both classes were allegedly billed as intermediate but Vadim's teaching style and approach worked much better for me than Marianela's.  A different dancer would have a different opinion.   Danceworks run these occasional workshops with different leading professional dancers as part of their masterclass programme if you want to try them.  They're online and in studio.  I'd only do them online with the camera off so nobody can see me flailing around.  The level in studio is much higher.  

intermediate or Intermediate?   Intermediate is a VERY loaded term in the  anglosphere of ballet

 while not  the Inter syllabus , most  Intermediate classes at Danceworks / Pineapple and Central   need a similar levle of  experience and  sold  core knowledge of  technique and vocab 

https://www.agirlreconstructed.com/2019/02/capitalising-i.html
 

1 hour ago, Angela Essex said:

Hello NJH and thank you for your reply. I am very grateful for your suggestion and have found that David Kierce does an absolute beginners class - hooray! Sadly the only one I can get to is Central and even then only alternate Sundays due to kids & work. I’m not sure what the etiquette is about not attending every class once you join a class? Would the teacher be a bit put out by that? maybe I could message him and see if he minds me going alternate weeks. 
 

I feel like I need to go on a crash course for a weekend or something just to get the basics sorted. If anyone knows of such a thing for beginners please do share the details 🙏🙏🙏

David's classes  are  PAYG  - all the Central classes are PAYG ...  
there is no etiquette  aobut  attendance or not of  of PAYG classes - yes they have their  regulars  , t yes that  have peopel who do not attend  every  week, yess thy have people who drop in once in a blue moon because they are in the The Smoke  ( as I have done with David's classes in the past - I do so far less now  primarily because i think other teachers suit me and my  place in my ballet journey  better).

Not sure of  crash courses for beginners , although  it has been something that has been suggested to Hannah B after a few  TBR participants  have struggled  because of the l way in which the levle of  daily  class   etc  at TBR has crept upwards over the past 5 years ( becasue quite a few of the  TBR regulars  are the same regulars as 4 or 5 years ago ) 

1 hour ago, Angela Essex said:

Update - worst ever Ballet class by zoom tonight 😭😭😭 my usual teacher was off and we had a different teacher. The teacher was lovely, and we had really nice music, but I absolutely stunk to high heaven. My memory is trash at the best of times, but with all new combos to do I was really struggling. I am okay with being the worst person in every single class I attend as hopefully with some hard work I will improve - it just seems to be taking an awful long time. I’m wondering if there’s a class that’s easier than a beginner class? as even the beginner classes are too hard for me sometimes 😭😭😭😭. When it came to the centre I literally couldn’t follow it so I had to end the zoom 15 mins early and skulk away with my tail between my legs. 😭 Anyway rant over - tomorrow I will stop being a whiny baby, do some practice at home and try to suck a little less next time. 

 some teachers do  'absolute beginner'  classes  

also  zoom  can  be harder  especially  if  the  teacher doesn't have a demonstrator 

you will suck in the centre for far longer than  you suck at  the barre in any given level of class ...   if Ballet was easy we wouldn't be doing it !

6 hours ago, Colman said:

Nobody is looking. We're all *far* too busy (and if anyone is looking, they're not working hard enough!).

 

 

absolutely  

and oddly  enough  plenty of 40+ year old adult dancers  do wear leotard , tights and  wrap or even SAB type skirts ... 

a brief look around the adult ballet world on  instagram will show you  that  

 leotards ? at  risk of being accused of spamming   ( and i have NO  financial link with them )  https://imperfectpointes.com/  are fab  and  will do  bespoke  - as due to my  height / leotard girth measurement  i need a long body and i'm  an XL or  slightly larger in their sizing anyway  ( as it;s typical dancer sizes)

if you do go for  'proper' ballet tights  the capezio 1816/ 1916  come recommended by a number of larger / taller dancers including my self and @sophie_rebecca  and it appears that Snag are now doing ' convertible ' ballet tights  

WEAR WHAT MAKES YOU  FEEL COMFORTABLE !  a lot of people  start out in gym kit ,  the  addiction to buying  dancewear comes later  ( as can be seen by many  adult dancers  instagram pages  regardless of  their size or level they dance at - remember that some of the  adult dancers you  see  who are mixing it in Adv and Pro classes re  peopel who started taking class as adults in their 30s or 40s  - although often with good underlying fitness levles )


want a ballet body ?   have a body , preferably your own , do ballet with it... !

light coloured  legs  help the teacher  see how you use  your muscles  and engage your turn out ...  

there are some teachers who will tell you leggings better than  skirt , but  just leotard and tights is best of all  - but that is purely from the point of view of looking at how you engage  your  muscles etc. which an open  beginners class   might not  be a top priority (  depends on the teacher  - those who have taken class with Hannah Frost or  David Kierce will know  how  keen eyed  they can be 

whether you  wear a bra under yout leotard  is combination of the cut and  construction of the leotard and  the  volume of bosom you  possess !
 

54 minutes ago, Angela Essex said:

Wow really NJH, I had no idea. I’d been thinking pointe work was the result of many years hard graft - how inspiring though. I’m 45 so I’m thinking it’s not necessarily going to happen for me on account of my age, but I’d literally be happy just to take a beginners class and not be the worst one there for a change at this stage of proceedings 😂 

Yes, Pineapple for me tomorrow night. Suppose I’d best get used to travelling about to classes 😭

i started taking class  at 39 , i was en pointe , at the barre in  beginning pinte class at 41 ...  i'm 44 now but  we have had  lockdowns etc  in the way but just before lockdown 1 was doing some stuff in the centre and could do a passable pose turn en pointe ...  getting back to that , but i asm glutton who averages aobut 5 or 6 hours of class a week (as well as a full time job)

12 hours ago, Angela Essex said:

Hello Michelle,

 

Sorry you’re having a rough week, but impressive that you’ve started pointe work as an adult 🙌🙌🙌. It’s inspiring reading about your ballet journey. I started ballet in September at the ripe old age of 45 having literally never danced a step in my life and am loving it. I started on one class a week at my local dance school and recently joined Hannah Frosts Pineapple adult beginners ballet. Just wondering if there’s any adult beginners classes you’d recommend please? And any tips for adult beginners?  I’m in Essex, so the more local the better, but I’m thinking I might have to travel or do more zoom classes? Many thanks in advance  🙏

significant numbers of people  who take up ballet as adults or  return to ballet having stopped as youngsters before going en pointe  get en pointe  in a  relatively timely manner. 

Unfortunately as i understand  it a lot of essex seems to be stuck heading into the smoke for class  ... 

5 hours ago, Tulip said:

There are lots of adult classes for advanced dancers in Liverpool and Manchester. My daughter attends these classes in between contracts. I’ll ask her when she WhatsApps me. 

Manchester ceertainly has plemnty of  very good classes   - KNT  among  others ... 

3 hours ago, NotadanceMa said:

@Peanut68and @Jane Thankyou 

 

It is interesting for me that I am focusing on on my child’s SEN. I know in my heart this is not the issue. It is a problem, but not where my concerns lie.

The teacher in question is doing things that I do not want my child exposed to. I want to outline them here but can’t. They are doing these things to my child. My child told another teacher about an incident in class. The teacher in question was made to apologise. I knew though when my child told me what had happened that the teacher would get them back for this and they did.
I asked my child what do the other children say, and they say, ‘oh the teacher really hates you’ shocking, but I suppose it’s not on them. Although there is whole class bullying, and yes coercion and shaming. but it is accepted as part of the culture by the students. I know another student has complained about being shamed in class, but nothing changed.

 

I am aware that this teacher has been there a very long time and is close friends with AD, so where does that leave a complaint progression? If not a complaint, a concern.

 

I am finding that on the breaks home I am constantly working with my child to help them find was to manage the classes with the teacher. I have even told them, it is them who has to change and just get through until next year. I know this is the wrong thing to do. I also can hear that my child believes the problem is them. 

It is worth saying there are no concerns in any other area of dance with other teachers at all. My child is thriving and loving everything.

 

I have gone around the houses for now via the SENCO and will wait to see if this helps. The situation is disheartening.

 where is the oversight  ?   in normal academic schools  the answer would be board of governors  and/or Ofsted  ... but even then   if they can turn on the charm ... 

sad to say i'm hearing a similar story  about a London based teacher of adults  and their own classes  / classes where the building provider is less interested in their  good name