Anon2

That’s wonderful news @Kat09 My daughter remembers yours as their paths often crossed. She will be pleased to hear she is now thriving. 

19 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences....

They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! 

My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices....

I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting?

And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy....

I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. 

So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! 

Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

 

 

 

I was horrified when my daughter told me one of her peers had a bust reduction in 2014/5 at the request of her school. To learn since that this isn’t uncommon and was being pushed 30 years ago too is just dreadful. 
 

Your comments about not wanting to say you were unhappy because of the financial implications to your family touched a nerve too. My daughter had a DaDA, we often talked to her about whether she should leave, her response flipped between ‘it’s not that bad, I’m tired …’ or ‘it will be better next term when we are …’ I’ve since found out the teaching staff often reminded the students that if they left their parents were responsible to pay the full fees for the full 3 year course. I can’t imagine there was anyone on a DaDA who thought well my parents will just pick up the bill. 
 

Sold 

£3 to cover postage? 

Have a bag of unused Bloch mesh elastic, pointe shoe satin ribbon and some Merlet canvas ribbon. If anyone would like this please let me know. 

4 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

The term ‘school nurse’ can be deceiving as some schools employ unqualified people and give them that name. ‘Nurse’ unfortunately is not protected in law whereas registered nurse is. Elmhurst definitely advertised for Registered Mental Health nurses so yes they would need to be registered with the NMC. The pay was lower than NHS though so I did wonder who would apply.

And I notice there is only a registered mental health nurse on the staff list now. 

5 minutes ago, Ruby Foo said:

None of what happens negatively in vocational schools needs to happen. 

If the AD/ Principal and teachers worked collaboratively with the students and stopped treating them as commodities which, when no longer needed or useful or become a problem, abandon or abuse them. The key -mutual respect for each other. This means time. Time for dialogue, time for communication, time to forge relationships and time to build trust. Time to actually know your pupils as individuals. Only then, can you work out what they need, what are their gaols, who are they? and how best to teach them. It’s not rocket science. This is not about what goes on in the studio. It’s about what goes on in peoples heads. If students truly believed that teachers cared for them and ultimately strived for the very best in pursuit of their happiness and dreams then there would be less injury, less self harm, more joy and productivity. The classes are small 13?15? How can you not know your own students as individuals? 

There needs to be a clear contract between the 2 parties where schools make a promise to the student to support, nurture and bring out their full potential. This may be there in theory but it is NOT HAPPENING IN PRACTICE except for the very small minority. 

And when it doesn’t happen, schools must be accountable. They must. They must now be accountable for their failure every and each time it happens. Every child (not just the 2 per cent super talented) is worth the time and trouble. Every child, even if difficulties arise along the way ( we know and expect they will) should be treated with respect. 
My daughter was assessed out at 18yrs.  There was no communication whatsoever regarding gently redirecting her dance training into something more suitable. They did not know her as a person at all and had no idea what she might have liked to use all her training for. They’d never bothered. They probably already knew from the beginning she wasn’t worth the effort in their eyes. This was certainly borne out by the vicious teacher’s abusive behaviour in Upper School. In fact, my dd said later - I don’t think the AD knew my name until the Assessment. She was being truthful. She’d been there since yr 9 (5yrs) and on the couple of occasions she’d met him, he’d called her the wrong name. 

 

 

Yes this. How difficult is it to know your students when the cohorts are so small. 
We laughed at the time but my daughter went through the front door of Elmhurst in her 7th year as a student of the school and the receptionist asked her if she was there for an interview. 
On the day she graduated we walked out of that school without any members of staff interacting with her, they were too busy with the chosen few, their own VIPs. 

To add to taxis list 

Medical centre being closed at break times and students not being able to go during lessons

Being punished for using toilet in night

Racist comments made to students by teaching staff and other pupils 

Inappropriate touching of students by other students without permission and staff reluctant to act 

Dance rehearsals taking preference over scheduled GSCE revision class 

15 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

I've just read those links posted above. What a crock of ....

Thought the same 

11 minutes ago, BalletP said:

Having watched the panorama programme and reading through all of this thread I do find myself wondering exactly what the consensus is here that people want. I see hints of it but there seems to be a clash of what the realities of what the industry actually needs and the idealism of how the educational experience should actually be.

 

I don’t think that the shapes of dancers we have today have arrived by chance ,its just been borne out by the needs of the profession itself to fulfill what’s asked of them.

 

Dancers are fighting against  gravity ,what's aesthetically is pleasing to the audience (which is made without prejudice) and the needs of their own and potential partners physical strength to dance to the required standard.

 

The very fact they are sometimes using coded language appeared to me they are trying to communicate realities in some cases as nicely as possible.

 

Please don’t misunderstand me and to be clear NO abuse of a child is acceptable. Creating eating disorders also NOT acceptable.

 

But

 

How do you all want institutions to handle this ?  do you not or do you not want them to . It seems like some points of view ,are that weight just can not be mentioned.

 

So should RBS, Elmhurst just carry on taking money ( accepting it from funding or a parent) from someone that they know will not go further in the industry than the school due to physical attributes? . Then set the child up for an even bigger fall at the end and also the parent  having invested a considerable amount in fees that would have been better spent elsewhere. All due to the fact they were not allowed to speak about physicality and the needs of the industry that are hard baked into the industry by gravity,  aesthetics and strength.

 

I find myself thinking that there needs to be overhaul of communication with parents and child prior to the child joining the vocational school with regards to the needs of the industry and why those needs are as they are.

 

So that if they do need to come and talk to the parents about this issue its not going to cause a huge problems as it has.

 

 

 

No bullying/abuse should be allowed by ANY teacher though, if its happening that has to change.

 

 

 

As a parent of a child at vocational school I’m now worried they are going to be frightened through fear of potential backlash of telling me the truth

 

on my child’s potential prospects due to their physical attributes.

 

 

 

I find that very concerning because that vocational money may well have better spent following another path .

 

 

 

Hiding from realities till they hit employment age and letting them find out for themselves is not a solution either IMHO.

 

 

 

So I’d like to know what all those who have been affected by the issues brought up in the panorama programme would have found as parents an acceptable and fair conversation to have on this issue in their end of year appraisal for example.

 

 

 

As I don’t think asking a school/teacher to no longer speak about the needed requirements of the industry and just carry on taking my money is a good solution in any way.

 

 

 

Hopefully all of this has come across with intended sentiment , as I’m not in anyway out to offend any posters on this thread. I’m just seeing more a cry for change without solutions . Which feels like another form of cancel culture

 

(a thread elsewhere here has been made asking whether or not we should support these institutions anymore for example) rather than accepting this is a very nuanced conversation that really would be best served with better communication and understanding all round. (parents and school)

 

 

 

The bullying in class that some of those dancers received in the programme due to this lack of communication is obviously not the solution. Are

 

the teachers doing this as they don’t have any other what are deemed to be none offensive tools to tackle this issue ? what would those ideal none offensive conversations be like ?

 

 

 

Ultimately these institutions are not setting out to destroy our children and it would seem to be struggling to navigate the parent child relationship

 

without causing issues.

 

I think the schools can mention weight but in a situation where the student is not in class. How does it help to humiliate in the class? How did it help Jack telling him he was too heavy to get off the ground?  How did it help Padua tell her she had put too much weight on to wear a costume due to her medication? 
Having sat through numerous watching classes these children are not fat or overweight in any way but the constant digs make them think they need to make drastic changes to their bodies to get teachers approval. 
My daughter never got out of a child’s size 2 leotard even at graduate year but still she got comments about losing bulk, toning up, lengthening lines. No advice ever about how to do any of that. 

39 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

Because none of it is changing what happens in the room with the teacher. I sit in lessons in mainstream schools on a daily basis and regularly see teachers who just don’t think the policies of the school apply to them. If I see anything inappropriate I report it to senior management before I leave the school, and on some occasions I’ve left the classroom immediately to find someone to deal with it. I’d love to know whether any other adults ‘in the room’ in ballet classes ever do the same, I’m thinking of the pianists in particular, who could support the students’ accounts of what is happening. 

A pianist once intervened when my child was being humiliated in class by a male teacher. The pianist left the school not long after … 

2 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I too have often wondered at the qualifications/regulatory bodies that so called school nurses belong to…. My suspicion is that independent  schools can quite likely employ anyone in the capacity of school nurse much as they can employ anyone as a teacher. No qualifications are legally needed though of course one expects that they would necessarily have them & that schools would only employ suitably qualified/registered staff in any capacity. I certainly found at one school a great many nurses seem to be from overseas…. Do the qualifications match up I wonder? Would there be any redress/oversight available from UK nursing bodies for these staff? I’m told someone is a nurse & I believe that’s what they are…. Based on my child’s experiences I seriously question the suitability of sone of these staff & time again I think I would’ve asked a few more questions of the school on the suitability if these people in role. They wield much power (eg. could sign you off dance) & act under a veil of ‘student confidentiality’ (well - when it suits them…) & actually I felt there were sone slightly on a power trip to create drama/add to their own self importance/ ruin kids lives… It felt gossipy, totally inappropriate, no real ‘nurse’ care & no accountability save to the senior leadership team…. And therein lies ever more questionable behaviours & practises…. 

Nurses that have qualified overseas are tested in certain competencies before they are able to join the NMC register. Once registered every nurse regardless of initial training has to revalidate every 3 years and this includes CPD, reflections of practice and feedback. To be a registered nurse in either NHS or private practice you would need to meet the above criteria. 
My impression was the school was employing staff in the medical centre that may have qualified as nurses, not kept their registration active but we’re still using the title. 

32 minutes ago, Janeparent said:

For any parents of younger children making this decision, our personal (recent) experience was this: our daughter started at Elmhurst in year 7, was desperately unhappy and left halfway through year 8. While the academic staff were kind, her ballet teacher was not: in that short space of time she lost all of her belief in her ability and all of her joy in dance. She was broken and now recoils at the very mention of ballet. Having spent her younger childhood loving ballet and being devoted to it, and showing a large amount of talent and potential, she will now never dance again. The pastoral care she received at the school was laughable: we moved house so that she could be a day student, but the “pastoral” staff are in reality simply the boarding staff, who consider day students to be an inconvenience. She was lonely and neglected. We had many meetings with senior management, at which assurances were made, but nothing substantially changed. I wish with all my heart that we had never sent her there.

Your last sentence I’m sure is how the majority of us feel. 
 

I had numerous meetings with senior management and pastoral team over the years. They’re all good at the fluff but not actioning what they promise. One conversation that I have just remembered with a houseparent was ‘all the children are unhappy in one way or another, X just shows it by being quiet and Y shows it by being bolshy and loud’  I had no response at the time because was flabbergasted. 

1 hour ago, Hadtopost said:

 

I have read the comments on this thread.

I have read the newspaper articles and watched the Panorama programme.

Not one thing that I have heard or read has contradicted the real-life experience that our daughter had in the world of vocational ballet training. It is a toxic environment, and one that unfortunately it is so hard to see as such whilst they are in it. One of the posters on here used the term ‘groomed’ and Luke Jennings referred to its cult like qualities, and I would say neither were far from the truth.

 

During training from the years of 11-16 there was the daily belittling, humiliating, bullying, coded comments such as needing to lengthen her lines, the not so coded comments, eat less biscuits (she didn’t eat biscuits anyway). While she was in training at upper school (RBS) she suffered with eating disorders, self harm, and suicidal thoughts. She made the decision to leave as she was so desperately unhappy, and hasn’t stepped into a ballet studio since. 

Although she is out of that world now, and studying at a mainstream school, the internal wounds, as she calls them, are still there.

 

She didn’t watch the programme, but she read the article in the Times on Monday night. She called me at 11am yesterday morning from the toilet at school where she was having a panic attack. Reading it unearthed all the trauma that is still inside. 

 

So it’s easy for people to comment, parents should know or protect their kids, well female dancers need to be light enough to be lifted in PDD, whatever whatever whatever (and by the by it wasn’t just the females in her boarding house who said they felt ‘fat’ after dinner so they needed to go and throw up, the disordered eating/eating disorders/body shame/self loathing ran across both sexes). But the wounds are still there for all these ex-dancers, no matter who it feels easier to blame.

 

I don’t have any more than that really to say on the subject. 

 

When I spoke to my daughter yesterday after she had come home from school following the panic attack (she basically broke down having the trauma resurface and her school sent her home to recover), she said she still feels wrong, and damaged inside, and alone, and I thought how wonderful it would be if out of all of this something positive could happen. Something like a support group for survivors of this world, where they could talk and share their experiences and feelings and feel truly seen and understood by others who have been through this. I really don’t know how such a support group could be facilitated but if anyone has any ideas or thoughts and wants to DM me about this please feel free.

 

One thing both my partner and I thought after we watched that programme was that in fact she isn’t alone, none of them are alone, there are so many of them who have been damaged. 

Six years on the program and discussion among peers was very triggering for my daughter so I can’t imagine how difficult it was for yours who sounds like she is recently out of the system. 
I know my daughter follows the IG accounts that have been mentioned further up the thread. She finds it difficult to keep in touch with most of her cohort as wants to put that life behind her. 

 

22 minutes ago, Harwel said:

I have read this whole thread with great interest, I also watched the documentary.  I am so sorry for all the hurt that accompanies ballet training, it really is the most insidious, mind twisting, toxic environment you can imagine.  Ballet is so beautiful to watch but what goes on behind closed doors is totally shocking and almost unbelievable.  
 

For the parents on here that are trying to ‘parent blame’, get the other side of the story, suggest ‘it’s just sour grapes’, please just stop talking about something you clearly do not understand.  You are not helping the literally hundreds of dancers who have been damaged by this toxic culture. You are gaslighting them - listen with open ears and hear the horror that clearly exists.  I have heard it for years - oh it won’t happen to my child, oh well mine is special, oh mine is so mentally strong, well that happened to yours because they are just not talented enough, well it can’t be that bad, I have taught my child to stand up for themselves.  
 

Well that is all hogwash if you have a child at boarding school surrounded by competitive children, divisive teaching, Unsympathetic house parents, limited parental contact, a child’s self belief wrapped up in what they are doing, a perfectionist, hard working, diligent child who is eager to please those who have power and control over them.  
 

For the couple of parents here that are saying their child is at a school where this catagorically doesn’t happen and their children are incredibly happy - well amazing, fantastic, please share which school they are at as clearly lessons can be learnt from their teaching methods.  
 

There are so many accounts of the harm done it is truly heart breaking.  Truly beautiful dancers who have been horribly bullied by teachers.  Some of these are students who have been chosen by RBS at 16 and then crushed the moment they walk through the doors. Why? The young lady who this happened to in the documentary is not the only one it’s happened to!  Surely they can not be dismissed as ‘not talented enough’, ‘wrong physique’, they’ve just been chosen by one of the world’s most prestigious schools! 
 

I have been taught (40 years ago) by 2 very well known, highly regarded teachers from Royal - worst classes I ever took - they were masters at cruel, unkind and divisive training.  And guess what, they are still teaching, still in positions of power and apparently revered!  Whenever is see their names I physically feel anger and disgust.  
 

My son knew Jack - I am so very sorry for his parents loss.  

 

I was very sceptical of the ‘expert’ that spoke on the program about training methods changing. I can’t remember her exact words but how does she know things are changing? What is she measuring this on? Who is telling her? 
So interesting to hear you say the same teachers that were toxic 40 years ago are still out their teaching. 

10 hours ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

I am sorry to hear that. If they are a registered nurse then they are accountable to the NMC. 

My child left the school a number of years ago, at some point I searched the nursing staff on the NMC register because I had concerns. I couldn’t find some of the team that were at the time listed as qualified nurses, it may be they were registered under maiden names and had never updated? It was at a time when we were dealing with a lot of bullying in house and wasn’t something I had the energy to pursue. 

36 minutes ago, Out-the-other-side said:

At the ‘graduation party’ referred to in the programme, my daughter was given the ‘joke’ award of ‘Most Likely to Cry in Class’, so clearly her daily torment and humiliation was a source of amusement for the teacher in question. 

The saddest thing about this comment for me is I’m not shocked. I know that graduation party wasn’t that long ago, I hope your daughter has started her journey of recovery from the trauma. 

24 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

A lot of the mental health problems that students (and professional dancers) suffer are as a result of continually being told they aren't trying, they aren't good enough, they aren't ever going to get anywhere. That happens to many dancers, and isn't necessarily to do with their weight or physical appearance. Some students are utterly humiliated in front of their peers, and demoralised to the point that they can't even bring themselves to ask for help.

 

Another big issue is fear. Fear that if they say anything to their parents, then they will be taken out of the school, or that they worry they will have let their parents down. Fear that if they complain or stand up for themselves, their funding will be taken away or assessed out. The fear that nobody likes a troublemaker and if they become known for it, then they will never get a job. The fear that the one thing they live for and have dreamed of since they were a toddler will be taken away from them.

 

So they say nothing. I applaud the bravery of those who have spoken out.

The comments made by Jack’s parents about how he was called out in class touched a nerve for us. My daughter will now say it was a very rare class if at least half of the students wouldn’t be humiliated by the teacher. You could be praised at the start of class but then the teacher would turn on you. You never knew what made them flip. These are children are 11, 12, 13 years old living away from home. And as Taxi says the children live in fear of mentioning it, the ballet world is very small. They are told constantly how privileged they are to be at the school, there is someone in the wings with more potential just waiting for their place if they rock the boat. They watch it happening to their peers so why shouldn’t it happen to them too. It is after all the normal behaviour of the staff within the school. 
Ofsted visit and tell your child that what they are reporting about how they are treated in class and house  ‘is not that bad and aren’t they lucky to be at the school’ 

5 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Hmm have a feeling it’s my post that’s been removed!! Possibly because I mentioned the first name of a dancer! ( But not sure if I remembered the band correctly anyway) 
I did think about this but as it was back in 2013 so ten years ago now I thought would be okay as the dancer concerned must be about 27 by now if still dancing even! 

This are very small year groups, the dancers all know each other. I didn’t report your post but know exactly who you were referring to. 

12 minutes ago, Graceful said:

Yes the schools of course have to be aware of it and do all they can to stop any eating disorders/mental health issues develop, but also where are the parents? I’m sure some of them put the pressure on their children too…We’ve all seen it.

 

Isn’t the problem more that the school teaching and pastoral staff should not be encouraging and causing the eating disorders and mental health issues? How is it right for a teacher to tell an 11/12 year old boy he is too heavy to get off the floor in front of his classmates? How is it right for a teacher to stand a 16 year old in front of a mirror and tell her what she would cut off her body? How is it right to tell students there are treats but imply they shouldn’t have them? I remember hearing a similar comment said at a Christmas Service to students and parents about not over indulging in treats over the holidays. 
 

20 minutes ago, DancingWellies said:

Which considering how few actually go into a classical ballet company is another major issue they need to get to grips with.

 

Unfortunately it looks like the program is focussing on the body image issue, easy one to sell to people outside the ballet world I suppose but the well being issues go well beyond body shaming.

I agree the program does concentrate on the body shaming issues but in light of the fact it is only 30 minutes long I can’t see how they would cover other topics. This program hopefully breaks the ice and will start those in ballet and education thinking about their practices. I’m not holding my breathe on that one though. 
 

Having just watched and sadly knowing the trauma these young people have suffered, I applaud them for finding the strength to speak up and hope all are now getting the support they need to heal.  And the parents of Jack, so courageous.

I hope the schools are changing but I don’t think I will ever be convinced they can be whilst the teaching and pastoral staff have been through the same system and think they are un damaged. It is a toxic environment. 
 

An article has just appeared on the Guardian website about the problems with Avanti trains. 

Once term starts I would request a current year assessment again, I can’t see how they can refuse you. 

😂😂 I’m going to carry on with the getting them out of the house. 
The puppy is at the stage of nose into everything so don’t think it would end well with a hornet. Cat reached stage of life where he really can’t be bothered with anything unless it involves food.