carriecrafts

Hi sarah761, I've pm'ed you a breakdown of my DD's living costs which are close to £11,000 per year. She is on BA (Hons) at Urdang and shares a privately rented flat with 3 other 'Urdangers', which is much cheaper than student halls. DD was offered a DaDA for the Diploma which would have given her £5,100 maintenance for living costs... leaving us to find the £6000 shortfall every year. Hence she chose the Degree and can cover her costs with student loans. Seems stupid to have turned down a DaDA worth £50,000 over the 3 years to take on a larger debt but the maintenance part of DaDAs is unrealistic and takes no account of other siblings in the family. At least the student loans make it possible :-)

DD is in 1st year at Urdang but on the Degree not the Diploma. Urdang don't provide any accommodation but they can send you an accommodation list for the local halls of residence, just email them. I think costs were between £150 and £250 per week. DD shares a 4 bed flat with 3 others on her course; we found it privately through an agent and it is much cheaper than halls. Urdang have a Facebook group for new starters so that students can get to know each other and arrange flat-shares etc. Again, email them for the link. x

cross-posted from DaDA thread, does anyone have the DaDA scale for the coming academic year (14-15) as the ones posted are for 13-14?

Do you know whether they have updated the figures for the next academic year?

Lol, keep quiet about it then

Sorry dancemad, I wish you were correct, but a recent tribunal confirmed that the DaDA courses are 'Higher Education'. That is why students can not claim housing benefit and parents lose child benefit. However, the DaDA regs say they are 'Futher Education', which is how the govt justify not allowing student loans. It is a mess, they seem to change the category to suit themselves

I don't think anyone is suggesting it is easier for families on low incomes, certainly not me - which is why I suggested that a wealthy absent parent or relative would be necessary. Low income families have far less flexibility in choosing to make cuts or sacrifices in order to fund vocational training. Add other children to the equation and it is even harder I'm struggling to see how we could fund the living costs. Well done for finding a way that works for you. Yes, it is our (or our dc's) choice, but there is very little opportunity for them to pursue this level of training through state supported institutions. Another of my daughters is enjoying the highest quality education in law at Oxford, all funded via student finance which she will only repay if she earns above a given threshold. It would be nice if the same opportunities were open to all, whatever their choice of career. Any advice on fundraising most welcome! :-)

Sadly those last few local authorities who supported Diploma students (with or without DaDA) with housing benefit are no longer able to do so, even if they would like to. The DfE's DaDA guidelines say that these diplomas are 'Further Education' so student finance is not available, the DWP and the recent Tribunal say these diplomas are 'Higher Education' so students are not eligible for housing benefit... See article below It seems to me that the only students who can make use of DaDAs are those who live with a low-earning parent but also have support from a separated wealthy parent or relative. I have been writing to both DfE and DWP, also started tweeting about it, but not getting anywhere. Just hoping that Laine's feel strongly enough now to kick up a real fuss and force a rethink. http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/news/topstories/10609326._Catastrophic__end_to_housing_benefit_for_performing_arts_students/?ref=nt

Again I think they use the term 'above Level 3' rather than Higher Education as the cut-off... clever eh?

I had an identical reply earlier this week. I have since contacted DWP directly on the email address provided by DfE: ministers@dwp.gsi.gov.uk I have told them that I believe that the tribunals are correct in their findings, as they are following the regulations, but that the regulations themselves are flawed and need to be amended to rectify the discrimination against a minority of students who have been overlooked Also the Diploma is officially classed as 'Further Education' not 'Higher Education'. The problem is that the regulations use Level 3 (A Level) as their watershed, rather than the term 'Higher Education'... That is what needs changing, it would be so simple! This is what I have sent them, please feel free to use any bits that may be useful, afterall they are sending us identical replies... I think this is about volume of complaints rather than originality : I have been corresponding with the DfE regarding the Trinity College London Diploma and Housing Benefit ineligibility (all correspondence is copied at the end of this email for your information) and am now directing my concerns to you. The most recent email from DfE states:"As you are aware this issue arises because the Trinity College London (TCL) Diploma is categorised as being a course equivalent to Higher Education, therefore the relevant Housing Benefit regulations exclude students of such courses from entitlement, because the Government's policy is that students studying Higher Education courses should not be supported by the benefits system." I understand the rationale; Higher Education students are entitled to student finance to support them through their studies and should therefore not be supported by the benefits system. However, TCL Diploma students are not Higher Education students and are therefore not eligible for student finance. The TCL Diploma qualification is classified as Level 5 or 6 but the newly issued 'Dance and Drama Awards, Q&A for Providers (March 2013)' http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/d/dada%20qa%202013-14%20-%20final.pdf clarifies that the TCL Diploma is a Further Education qualification, not a Higher Education qualification: " The EFA DaDA scheme is a Further Education (FE) programme and Awards can not be made available for students to undertake Higher Education (HE) degree courses." The most recent email also states: "DWP colleagues have confirmed that cases, about students on courses such as the TCL Diploma not being able to claim Housing Benefit, are the subject of appeals to be heard by a tribunal under the HM Courts and Tribunal Service. The Government will look at the treatment of students on these courses in light of the tribunal's decision, but tribunals in the past have confirmed the original decision that such students are not entitled to Housing Benefit. It remains likely therefore that students studying these TCL qualifications will not be able to claim Housing Benefit." Whilst I understand that the appeal findings are correct based upon compliance with the Housing Benefit regulations, I believe that the regulation on which these findings are based is flawed as they discriminate against a particular group of people based on their choice of course. The regulations ensure that those young people following the standard educational route, of A Level followed by Higher Education, have access to maintenance support at all stages of their education or training: A young person living independently would be eligible for Housing Benefit if they were studying A Levels or a BTEC. They would be eligible if in a low paid job or registered unemployed. If studying for a degree they would access Student Finance. However, those studying above A Level, but not within Higher Education, are a minority and have been overlooked. It seems discriminatory to prevent young people from accessing either HB or Student Finance based on their choice of course. I presume that this discrimination is an oversight due to the non-typical educational route and I suggest that the regulations be reviewed to remove this discrepency. End quote. BWs Carrie

I have just sent the following reply to the Dept for Education in response to their email: "I am pleased to read that the issue of Housing Benefit eligibility for students studying a TCL Diploma has been raised with DWP. I would be grateful if you could forward my correspondence to DWP as you have already raised the issue with them and request that they correspond with me directly if you prefer. I understand that the issue may not be as straightforward as it seems but I am hopeful that this problem is caused by an oversight in the regulations rather than an intentional decision. The regulations ensure that those young people following the standard educational route, of A Level followed by Higher Education, have access to maintenance support at all stages of their education or training. It seems clear to me that the reason those studying above A Level are ineligible for HB is to prevent HE students from claiming HB instead of, or along side, Student Finance. However, those studying above A Level, but not within Higher Education, have been overlooked. A young person living independently would be eligible for Housing Benefit if they were studying A Levels or a BTEC. They would be eligible if in a low paid job or registered unemployed. If studying for a degree they would access Student Finance. It seems discriminatory to prevent young people from accessing both HB and Student Finance based on their choice of course and I am hopeful of a satisfactory outcome." Fingers crossed but not holding my breath... Carrie

It would be great if more people could contact their MP to point out this 'oversight' in the Housing Benefit regs :-) I understand that the amount is limited to the cost of a room in a shared house for under 25s, rather than the cost of a self-contained flat. One parent told me that their daughter received £80 but it will depend on the rents in each particular area. Still every bit helps :-)

As the parent of a dancer who is very intelligent but hates written work with a passion, I'm not actually that cross about the comments (I'm not saying you shouldn't be (-; ) Whilst being a talented dancer doesn't exclude academic ability (quite the opposite, as many have pointed out) they don't say that all talented dancers aren't academically gifted, just that the DaDA 'can' support those who are not. At a Laine's open day they said that they wouldn't offer a degree because they want to avoid any academic element. I'm currently studying for an Art degree and sadly there are talented young artists dropping out because there is too much written work... Having said that, Rambert and Central both admit 16yr olds onto degrees, based on audition, so they obviously are not too worried about academic excellence (I know this is the case as I have communicated with both schools on the subject of GCSEs). My main motivation for writing to David Laws was that I object to the discrimination regarding access to benefits. If my daughter leaves home now while on a BTEC/A Levels she would get housing benefit... If she leaves home and works in a low paid job, or registers unemployed, she would be eligible for housing benefit... If she does a degree she gets student finance... If she studies a DaDA Diploma she gets nothing... I actually think that this is an oversight in the housing benefit regulations, rather than intentional, and I think there is hope of getting it changed now that it has been referred to the Dept for Work and Pensions. I'm currently trying to establish what other courses fall into this category (higher than A Level but not eligible for student finance) in order to back up my argument. Currently it is a postcode lottery; some DaDA schools are in Council areas that grant HB even though they are not obliged to. Students have challenged the Councils where they don't grant HB and the Councils' decisions have been upheld at appeal because of the regulations and DaDA students have then had to decline places because of the cost of living :-( bws Carrie

This might not be relevant to those interested in classical ballet only but for those looking at the musical theatre route it may be. I've had the following reply to my email to David Laws. My main point was that the Diploma courses are classed as 'Advanced Education' so students on them are not eligible for housing benefit (unlike students studying up to A Level who are eligible to claim it if they live away from home, as well as young people in or out of work...). The reason for this rule is so that degree students can't claim housing benefit instead of/along side student finance (fair enough ). I argued that Diploma students slip between the crack and should be eligible for one or the other. Many of the Diploma schools offer a BA and it seems there is little difference between the courses, so I argued that either the Diploma should be classed as 'Higher Education' thus making student finance available, or the Housing Benefit rules should be changed to rectify this anomaly. I made the point that even students who are talented enough (and eligible based on household income) to get a DaDA often have to decline the place as they cannot afford the living costs; so who exactly is the DaDA supposed to help? I'm please to read that the matter has been raised with the Dept for Work and Pensions Housing Benefit of approx £80 per week toward rent/lodgings could make the difference between being able to take a place or not. This should be available to Diploma students whether they get a DaDA or not. I will follow it up but it wouldn't hurt to have more people contacting them to make the same point Carrie. (cross posting to NotaPushyMum) Here is the reply: "Thank you for your email of 14 April addressed to David Laws about the changes to the Dance and Drama Awards (DaDA) and the level of the Trinity College London (TCL) Diplomas - and the effect the level has on financial support and access to benefits. I am replying to your letter because the responsibility for DaDA sits within my team at the Department for Education (DfE). As you are obviously aware, all DaDA students study for TCL Diplomas which are further education vocational qualifications set at level 5 and 6 on the qualifications framework. You rightly point out that this means they are classed as advanced (beyond normal further education) qualifications - so DaDA students are not eligible for housing benefit. We have raised this point with colleagues in the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) but I’m sure you will appreciate this is not a straightforward issue. Discussions are at an early stage and it is not yet clear whether there will be a satisfactory outcome for DaDA students. The DaDA scheme contributes towards both fees and maintenance (living) costs, but the scheme has a finite budget and the support it can offer to students choosing to study at these private institutions is limited. As you set out in your email, students from families with an income of less than £33,000 are eligible to receive maintenance support. However, this threshold has not changed and is the same as the previous arrangements. A small number of DaDA schools do offer students the opportunity to study for a degree alongside their DaDA funded course and this requires additional academic work to be undertaken alongside the TCL diploma. However, DaDA funding should not be used to support the costs of extra study needed to obtain the degree. We did consider whether it would be appropriate to bring the DaDA scheme into the higher education system. However, the strength of the scheme is that it can support talented young people aged 16 and over who do not have the academic ability to study for a degree. We therefore believe that continuing to support these talented but not academically gifted young people outweighs the disadvantages of DaDA students not being able to apply for a student loan. Should you wish to explore what other avenues of support might be available you can contact the Council for Dance Education and Training (CDET) or the National Careers Service (NCS). CDET can advise on vocational dance and musical theatre training and the various routes into the profession. CDET can be contacted on 0207 240 5703 or via their website at http://www.cdet.org.uk. NCS may also be able to advise on whether there are companies or charities currently offering any alternative source of funding support. More information about NCS can be found at: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk or on 0800 100 900. Some DaDA schools also offer additional support to students either financially or in approaching companies and charities that may be able to help. I appreciate that this is not the response you were hoping for, but in these difficult economic times there are significant constraints on the extent to which Government is able to support young people who attend private education providers."

I'm wondering whether this issue is something that ought to be exmined by the Education Select Committee.... There needs to be some clear thinking and recommendations to Government. I have a lot of respect for Graham Stuart, chair of the ESC, and would have faith that he would understand the inequities in the current system. From what I gather the ESC chooses which issues to examine: http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/commons-select/education-committee/role/ Graham is not my MP but I intend to write to him to outline the situation...

Thanks Ribbons :-)

I agree completely Klaris, I know of youngster who were awarded DaDAs but still had to turn down the places because the families could not afford the living costs in central London. Some vocational students seem to be eligible for housing benefit and others not, depending on which local authority the school is in. Officially 'students' are not eligible because they can get maintenance grants/loans, but the definition of 'student' doesn't take into account the difference between uni students and Diploma students who cannot access these grants/loans. Such a mess :-/

Just trying to get my head around what this means exactly before I write to my MP and David Laws... Am I correct in asuming that for a household on £69,000, if awarded a DaDA, the parental contribution towards to tuiton fees would be £7,175 but all boarding costs are on top of that? For a household on £71,000 the parents would pay the full fees plus the boarding costs? So the difference isn't £26,000 being stated, it is more like £8,000 based on fees of £15,000 plus £11,000 boarding costs? (I don't know the accurate breakdown for different schools), as boarding costs have to be paid even with a full DaDA? Or did the old DaDAs cover the full fees inc boarding costs? I'm not trying to belittle the costs/differences, I just like to argue based on accurate comparisons. My dd was offered a place at vocational school last year at 16 but didn't get a DaDA so she had to turn the place down :-( She'll try again for 2014 and being mid scale we would only have a small contribution to make for the fees but I still can't see how we could possibly pay her living costs. Most of the degree options are not much better as the student finance only covers half the tuiton fees at places like ArtsEd and Bird. I feel we should be arguing for these schools to be brought under the student finance system which allows equal access based on merit rather than affluence. I have 2 other dds at uni, both receiving high levels of training in their chosen fields, both able to finance it with studen loans. Why should they have this option but my youngest not?