Kerfuffle

1 hour ago, richieN said:

 Yes - generally the best coaches get the best results. Its clear up and down the country, and in every sport. As for creativity - ballet is the least subjective of the expressive arts - because there is correct movement, classical lines, timing and turnout. All of which can be measured and achieved. 

And as for Harvard and Oxford etc - they still select on merit, and even they don't kick their students out through the years - that particular honour is reserved for RBS students.

Very true that unis and also equivalent arts institutions don’t throw out students at such a rate! 
 

Ballet is subjective so choice of dancers might vary from AD  to AD - eg build, proportions,  hyper mobility and height. Preferably the school has a clear idea of what they like and this should be possible to spot when watching a company/school. It tends to fall to pieces when this certain artistic vision is lost - for example if dancers are randomly chosen from competitions. I think this is part of the problem we are seeing now, based on fads of high leg kicks and pirouettes and less on harder to quantify qualities such as true musicality (not just counting beats) - those story telling elements get lost. 

1 hour ago, Ballet_novice said:

As any other arts, I believe that also ballet has a degree of subjectivity. Think about actors, or painters. Ballet is probably even more challenging as it combines artistry, physical qualities, musicality etc. I can attend a drama school I can improve my recitation but I will never be Al Pacino. I can go running on a track everyday but I will never become Hussain Bolt - no matter how hard I train and how much I would love to run fast.

 

Unfortunately we need to accept that for certain careers not all can be learnt or taught. Anybody going into anything so challenging and competitive as ballet should evaluate clearly what this entails.
 

And this fall also on parents too as children are so very young - maybe the school could be clearer at the beginning about what parents should expect.
 

These type of careers are never easy. People will have to cope with rejections and failure - which is unfortunately part of everyone life - but probably more here than in other professions.

 

We are talking about one of the top schools in the world. Do we think that these can come with no challenge?

 

I am no underestimating the emotional toll on parents and children. 

 

Then if there is a lack of transparency, I am an advocate for it. But I am afraid that full transparency - if missing now - will not mean that all student will be progressing in the same way or won’t be assessed out. 

It’s all very well saying that these British kids should just suck it up but if you look at POB they manage to be an exceptional school and company while keeping loyal to their pupils and the French population  is a similar size to ours. They also have a very strong sense of identity and style. Dancers are creative individuals and will have good years and bad years during their training especially in the early teens and they need to have time to develop. 

That’s understandable but it would be good if that also included some other students from top British schools too - who will have a very similar style of dancing. 

13 minutes ago, alison said:

Other graduates do get in - Melissa Hamilton and Nicol Edmonds are two who come to mind, plus a few what you might call "sideways transfers" at a high level - but it certainly seems to help.

That is at least some consolation and hope for those not able to get an RBS place for whatever reason ! 

A naive question here - is the only possible to get into the Royal Ballet company through being at its school or can other graduates get in? 

Yes. Often the past there would be a lot of conflict and it would become personal (to the point where any criticism was considered sour grapes) - this time around it felt less heated and much more balanced. Surely this is what’s needed ? 

I too feel disappointed by the whole thread being locked. I think it was the most honest discussion there has been about a school which has a direct/indirect influence on the whole of the British ballet scene. It’s relevant to most parents on this forum. 

This is weird. Is RBS so badly supported by our own government that they need to get overseas sponsors and by doing this create a bias in selection towards one particular nation? Or is it a physical/aesthetic/work ethic thing ? 

Thanks. It’s always so hard to get hold of these numbers! 

Can anyone tell me how big the year groups are at Hamburg and if many 16 year olds join? 

1 hour ago, Swanwings said:

Thank you for this, can I ask how you found out? I've been wondering about this but didnt find anything.

I wrote to them to ask and they told me that if you go for 3 months you then can’t return for 3 months so basically it’s impossible to study there properly. I didn’t get the impression  that any attempt had been made to resolve this situation either! I guess they have enough prospective students from other places. 
 

Sorry just read the message above, 90 days is the correct amount of time quoted! 

Ah That might explain it. It’s a post Brexit  problem facing U.K. students only apparently ! 

European School of Ballet can’t accept British students for longer than 3 months so unless you have a EU passport there is no point in applying. I found this out very recently for my year 11 DD. 

1 hour ago, Dance*is*life said:

Don't forget that Nureyev danced for many years with RBS.  Whilst he influenced many changes there to the training (even we girls had to do the long loping steps à la Nureyev into grand jeté en tournant instead of a coupé chassé ) his technique was equally influenced by the British style.

So do you think that through Nureyev  Paris was influenced by the British style? That is a very interesting thought. Did you like his input ? 

Recently there were a few dancers who did a short term visit at WL who were on Instagram , one  of which came first at YAGP in Paris who is American. I guess these are the ones who might already have been offered places? 

It’s definitely another option and ballet is international after all! The majority of these dancers are seasoned YAGP competitors so are used to this format. I think some of the training is very intense and I would suppose that the same is going on in Brazil/Mexico as well as Korea and Japan - the RBS runs intensives in these countries so there must be a lot of interest.
I guess what is hard if you’re a parent here is that this is not easily accessible in this country but I have to agree that it’s great to be able to see what’s out there. I don’t know about recruiting for RB beyond Aub Jenson, I think you have to be invited to audition so this probably is a good way of being spotted. 

11 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Haven’t had a chance to watch any footage yet but looking at this photo I feel the PDL has gone from being a competition for emerging professional dancers to help launch their careers with ballet companies to a stage to showcase precocious talent for a sort of ‘land grab’ by schools to gain the best for upper schools…. But what’s the point in having already highly trained amazing dancers join your school? Surely they show up the weaknesses in that schools training that they feel a need to recruit from beyond their own training system? And also what is the point in young dancers being at Principal standard far before they realistically can join a company & far before they are physically & emotionally ready to be cast in such roles to give an artistically & morally correct portrayal? Just my own humble & very much from the distant sidelines opinion. I have stated before it makes ballet feel more like an elite sport & tbh at this rate why not become one? I have said elsewhere it could just as realistically be an Olympic sport judged much like ice dancing & figure skating or trampolining or gymnastics or diving. Scores on level of difficulty…. Execution… landing…. Oh and interpretation (though seem to think that’s becoming ever lower on the list sadly) 

I feel it’s more like it’s training individual recital performers (& maybe that too is the way ballet is going? And maybe there’s a place/market for such which could provide employment….tours of just virtuoso solo performers….) 

But I still prefer my ballet watching to be a range of performers with a mixture of youth & experience & the joy a company of dancers working as a body together can collectively share. 

 

I agree with you, it is a shame if it gets reduced to just a sport that is quantifiable with a score. I guess that the opportunity to join schools in the graduating year  at places such as RBS might be a reason for continuing with being in these competitions up to 18 and I suppose this is also why the ADs are still watching this age group.It’s like private schools taking on kids on grade 8 violin etc and then passing the training off as their own with impressive school orchestras and concerts when the hard work was mostly down to a previous teacher.  There is something satisfying in working on solos individually for students even if they aren’t mastered in the way a principal at a company might perform it.  It’s a chance to explore some of the best choreography to the best music at a young age which is a great opportunity, even if they never actually get that role professionally. 

I think finding teachers able to teach to that standard is generally difficult, plus in this country we have an exam taking culture based on syllabuses that demand  a lot of time - RAD, ISTD etc. Vocational lower  schools generally don’t train the individual student to do variations, so we have a huge gap in comparison to over nations. There are a few independents at YAGP from U.K.  or those studying intensely with certain private teachers one to one but we are quite rare on the competition circuit! I think it’s hard to be taken seriously abroad and I wonder what further harm Brexit has done. It’s a bit like being a British act in Eurovision until last year! 

All excellent points @SplitSoul although I’d expect it’s a pretty rare state school these days that can afford free one to one lessons. The nearest we got was learning the recorder and small groups charged less for violin but never one to one. Music training is very expensive and conservatoires have lower proportions of  state school kids enrolled than Oxbridge. 
 

I think there is also a bit of snobbery involved in music being taken more seriously than ballet.  
 

Maybe it’s different in Russia where they see it as central to their culture, a bit like Italians and opera, and there is a broader reach in the population? 
 

Your gender bias comment is sadly probably true. So much money is invested in sport too probably because of male support. 
 

On 01/02/2023 at 09:19, SplitSoul said:

I agree both dance and music are expensive, although for music it does depend a bit on what instrument you play. Some instruments are expensive to buy (like if you need family of clarinets) and bassoon reeds certainly don't come cheap! But then again, neither to pointe shoes.

 

Music requires more 1:1 lessons, but I think there are more opportunities to participate in free stuff (like church or cathedral choirs), school orchestra etc. 

Absolutely true that there are great opportunities like being a chorister, although most cathedrals are attached to private schools so there are hidden costs if the cathedral/school  can’t offer a full scholarship. Not many state schools have orchestras at a high level unfortunately, we are lucky ours is great but it’s unusual in our area. We have been advised to look for further funding to assist with the financial side of conservatoire training  - I haven’t come across parents doing the same for their dancing children - is this because fewer charities want to support dancers? 

A lot of these dancers are 18 so I think a bit old to be trying to get into upper schools. I imagine that their schools are teaching at a pretty high standard anyway - I bet they are mostly doing full time schedules. Going to a top school attached to a top company doesn’t guarantee you a job, those students still have to audition along with anyone else. 

I think everyone who applies gets the preliminary audition so there would be a large amount of dancers trying for senior associates and some of those (year 10) for WL. If there was that number at their finals that would be shocking ! 

@LusodancerHow wonderful that your musician and dancer are getting to work together! My daughter has danced with professional ensembles before but never combined with my son yet, who is a singer. I think these moments are extremely special! 
My daughter also plays the bassoon but only for fun as the ballet hours are so demanding she can’t get enough practice time. Her teacher has found a lot of gorgeous music for her, often ballet related. It’s sad your grandfather never heard or saw them continue his legacy but it’s lovely to know it lives on in them. 
 

@SplitSoulThe expense of training is considerable for both - the singer might take 7  years to get there and he’s just at the beginning even though he’s older. Both fields are hugely competitive! 

Lovely to see there are other parents with musical kids here! The ballet world seems particularly challenging but I think it’s pretty competitive and stressful in music too especially classical instruments such as violin which also has a huge amount of child prodigies starting at the age of 3! What I do love about music from my son’s experience is how once you get beyond the pain barrier of practice and acquire enough skills to just play with others it’s truly joyful. Just getting to that point takes tremendous effort ! 

On 24/01/2023 at 08:37, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I have seen quite a few already - also from Australia, for White Lodge. There have also been quite a few YAGP finalists who did their short term scholarships (one can only assume this is some sort of audition too) at RBS then were off to Cranko the week after…

Sadly looks like it becomes a competition between these schools to get the pupils, what’s happening to their own they are training? Must be damaging to their self esteem