Goldenlily17

As I understand that one of the flagship goals of the Brexiteers is not to sign up to the EEA, because they want to stop free movement and employment of peoples. I agree that if we had this option dancers and other creative workers would still be able to travel and work as they do now. If I have understood correctly, people who want to work in Europe have really been sacrificed by people who are determined to block EU citizens from working here. It all seems so sad, because it won't address the issue lack of jobs as we still have so many international workers. But I think we need to focus on examples of dancers from outside the EU who have got jobs in the EU and find out more about which companies welcome non EU dancers

Thank you Tabitha for your very positive post, and for sharing your knowledge of non-EU dancers who have been able to get visas to work in the EU without difficulty. It is important for parents of dancers, and dancers, to have as much information as possible so that we can help dispell anxieties. I do so hope British dancers will continue to work on the continent. We have so much shared dance heritage, and it is so enriching to be able to use language skills and broaden cultural horizons within Europe. our child worries.

It is interesting to hear the view that young footballers might benefit from Brexit. However, there won't be more jobs available for young British dancers as long as dancers remain on the UK Labour Shortage list. Vacancies that might have been filled by EU dancers will simply be replaced by international dancers, so the British will continue to be disadvantaged - with the additional difficulty of not being able to apply for jobs in those useful Eastern European companies who have taken many young dancers in recent years. The argument that Brits can go to Australia, for example, doesn't really wash as Australia sends many of its best dancers here to train and work. In any event many would prefer not to be exiled the other side of the world when they could be dancing with people on their doorstep who share a Western European dance heritage

I think what we need to do is to consider forming an alliance with the parents of young footballers. There is a cultural divide, but the employment issues are pretty much identical and we share the Ministry of Culture and Sport

I cannot believe that our Culture Minister John Whittingdale voted to leave Europe. That strikes me as an act of utter betrayal. I am also infuriated by the way so many of these articles seem only to be concerned about companies losing their valuable EU or international talents and how depleted they would be without them. What about our own talent? Whoever said that they can just work outside the EU doesn't understand anything, about protectionism in the USA or elsewhere, Finally, why should our DDs and DSs have to exile themselves on the other side of the world when they could have worked in Germany or France?

I do realise, of course, that jobs for dancers is just about as unimportant as anything could be for decision-makers. But for us, on this site, it is of deep importance. That is why we use the forum. The British will be doubly disadvantaged if we cannot reform the UK Labour Shortage issue. The reason so many non-EU dancers are here is because they by-pass the usual red tape. I don't know how they get to work in Europe? Can anyone throw light on this?

Following the discussion I initiated about the future for young dancers seeking work in European companies, I am starting a new post to invite proposals as to how we can lobby for their futures. I feel that we must help the 18-24 generation of dancers to ensure they don't have to give up on their dreams. Perhaps we should all raise a petition to John Whittingdale, the Secretary of State at the Department of Culture Media and Sport? And also lobby for dancers to be taken off the UK Labour Shortage List? Please repond and let me know your thoughts. All of you with DSs and DDs should be concerned for their future careers.

Sorry, a bit inarticulate there!

It is encouraging to see more that last year's apprentices have got jobs and that more apprenticeships have been given this year. Does anybody know what they get paid?

Yes. It is true that the winner of the YAGP this year was 2nd year student from the RBS. They break their own rules if they want to.

I am very grateful for the opportunity to discuss openly this issue with people who have a great deal of knowledge and who share the same concerns about jobs for dancers, many of whom will be their own children. Thank goodness for this forum. It is an incredibly important subject and I have learnt a great deal since I started this discussion. The number of views this thread has been achieving in a short space of time suggests that other members are also deeply concerned about this issue.

By the way all but 2 of the current batch of this year's graduating RBS students have got jobs of some sort inc apprenticeships - hardly needs saying that the ones still looking are girls.

So how can we lobby effectively for 1. Better support and 'company' education at the RBS (the school I know best) 2. Take ballet and contemp dancers off the shortage of labour list

I think 'good enough' needs unpicking. Young dancers are told that these days choreographers want versatility. But do they really? Being versatile inevitably means compromising on time spent in hard core classical training. I think graduate dancers need to spend more time researching the repertoire of prospective companies to see what the artistic director/choreographer is looking for in dancers. It is not good thinking that your contemporary skills, or your ability as a dance actress will propel your career if at the end of the day directors just want 32 totally reliable fouettes, so to speak,no matter what you have been led to believe. There is still the debate - does it all boil down to technique and body shape in the end?

A lot of new points to catch up on here, but I absolutely agree that training dancers at voc schools should have the opportunity to learn a wider range of European languages to help them in the European job market; certainly German.

Just had a look at this list. How can the government possibly recommend that we have a shortage of skilled classical and contemporary dancers and must thus recruit migrants? Who is advising this body?

Can you tell us more about the "shortage occupation list" you are referring to Tabitha. This doesn't seem to make sense as we have too many dancers for the available jobs in the UK, as we have discussed

If anybody has any intelligence on casting (or when it is announced) for the RBS performances at Opera Holland Park on 30th June and 2nd July please say

Who is the other British female principal at the Royal?

Surely 'British' means having British citizenship. Commonwealth citizens stopped being British 'subjects' in the early 1980s

The rationale for talking about females is just that it seems to be much more difficult for them to get jobs. And I mentioned the RB because of poing about Fonteyn. Looking back over recent years I can't think of a male classically trained dancer I have come across who hasn't got a job. Even though more boys have been going into ballet there are still fewer of them. Male ballet dancers also seem to be seen as very fashionable and sexy at the moment. Witness the finalists at BBC's Young British Dancer competition last year. Only one girl and she was a Kathak dancer, I seem to remember.

Aileen, sorry to have to contradict you on the subject of Margot Fonteyn. She was actually born in Reigate, Surrey. Her family re-located to Shanghai for a few years when she was about 8 because her father got a job there. Part of her huge appeal to the British public was precisely that she was English. Her real name was Margaret (Peggy) Hookham, but she changed it to a version of her mother's family name which was Fontes. Like Darcey her appeal lay in the fact that she was English, you can read this all over the post-war press - but of a paradox that she changed it really. Interestingly I suspect it is because Darcey is English that we see her life-size photo behind the box office counter at the Opera House. Unfortunately the PR isn't a reflection of the composition of the RB's ballerinas today Lauren Cuthbertson is the only British female principal..

In response to Janet, yes of course I accept that there are more classical dancers graduating than jobs for them to have, It is a problem in the industry globally. But is it right that we should be rejecting so many young British dancers along the way and cherry-picking dancers from overseas to replace them?and then privileging those foreign dancers? Does it indicate a crisis of confidence in our junior training? I think there are moral questions here. I am drawn back to the article Luke Jennings wrote about his in 2012. It is on Facebook

Alison, are you able to elaborate on the point about a Brexit not allowing protectionism? This is key. Some countries are having it both ways. They are in Europe with their citizens enjoying free movement to train and work in other countries, such as the UK, and operating protectionism within their own system. In France, again, you have to have been through the French exam system to get into the Paris Opera Ballet school. The only exceptions are the odd student who has won a major international competition. That is protectionism, and there isn't anyone prepared to enforce reciprocity anyway. If it isn't working as well as it should for us, is that not an argument in support of 'a degree' of protectionism for UK students within Europe?

I lived in Paris for three years where I worked as a journalist and I saw no evidence of this anxiety over positive descrimination, or any dropping off at the box office because of the quality of dance which the Paris Opera Ballet presented as a company of almost entirely French dancers. In fact there is a far larger repertoire there for dancers which is very fulfilling. Major works by Mats Ek for example will be regularly performed. For the French it is obvious that the school's primary mission is to train French citizens and employ them in the company because French tax payers fund it. They don't see it as their function to train dancers from all over the world and then place them in their companies. Their attitude is that they take great pride in the nurturing of their dancers through those long years of training and they didn't want to lose them. The result is a distinctive style, comparable with what was once recognised as the 'English' style. The same attitude prevails in Denmark. As far as the USA is concerned, it is a huge market and there are plenty of talented dancers, but it is very tough to get employment unless you are a 'star' as it has to be proven that an American citizen couldn't do the job as well in order to get the papers. Obviously companies have to employ the most capable principals, but I do think that there should be a duty to give graduating students more places within the corps of their feeder company to start them off with their first job, at the least. There seems to be so little confidence in our system of selection and training compared to some other countries.