glissade

18 hours ago, NotadanceMa said:

Full-time boarding vocational training is in our experience a most peculiar mix of emotionally charged adolescence children in various stages of puberty set up to outdo one another in a highly competitive environment with not enough support for their needs in the way they would be supported by a parent at home. The culture and teaching practice for the most part is all that I have come to expect within this strange closed system. Not healthy, not transparent, not particularly caring, sink or swim mentality. Training young children as though they are in a company. Weird.

Brilliantly articulated 👌

Many congrats, Arucaria!! ⭐👌

I think being honest about affordability is vital. I know it's tempting to think about pursuing all sorts of things to make it financially possible ... remortgaging, downsizing etc .... But the reality is that you would be putting an awful amount of pressure on your child to fulfill their dream. How could they tell you if they change their mind a few years down the line when they know how much you have sacrificed for them .....?

PS (I know you haven't mentioned doing this - but it's a risk worth thinking about in advance for anyone in your situation)

A few years ago now, but we also found email replies to be rather .... lacking! I think the emails do get read though - it's just the replies that don't seem to happen. 

On 17/02/2022 at 18:00, cotes du rhone ! said:

Broke my heart today to watch a skating performance from a traumatised young athlete. Abuse in elite training / sport needs to stop ✋ The adults surrounding this young lady need to be held accountable for their management and behaviours. 

I was so sad watching this. And absolutely astounded at her ability to pick herself up and keep going to the end - she's only 15! That takes something - bravery? Fear? I don't know what kept her going, but it was something unusual. At 15, I'm sure most would have skated off the rink or frozen.

3 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

We didn’t have the commitment, focus, financial means and time to even get close to what these other kids were doing. My DD decided then and there she just wanted to enjoy dance for how it is and how she first fell in love with it.

I do believe that, for many, a non-dancing career combined with amateur dance activities is perhaps more satisfying and fulfilling than dancing professionally would have been for them.

5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

 

I don't understand this statement.  Surely there are 5 mid-large scale ballet companies in the UK - BRB, ENB, NB, RB, SB as well as smaller ballet companies such as Ballet Cymru and Ballet Black.

 

Matthew Bourne has never, as far as I am aware, described any of his works as ballet even though his respect of and homage to ballet is obvious.  I do admire his business model though.

I read "do f" as a typo for "don't" .... which would then make sense? (Tho I may be wrong!)

Hi - Prob not the best place to observe this but frustrated cos my response on the Year 7 wanting to leave thread fails to save and post to the forum .... is there a glitch/bug or something going on with the function?

1 hour ago, Ballet4Boyz said:

Hi Glissade - yes he pays it in the holidays too…. so 52 weeks. You can get term time contracts with the accommodation company (unite students) but that doesn’t always fit with Centrals calendar so we’ve found that we have to book 52 weeks. 
The bonus is - if our DS wanted to stay in London during the holidays to work - then he’s got the ability to stay there. With the managers permission - we as parents could also use his room if his roommate was not in residence ! x

Thanks, that's really helpful 🙂

4 hours ago, Whiteduvet said:

Thank you. I’ve just had him (illicitly) on the phone again in tears. He wants to leave but is scared of making the wrong decision. His heart isn’t in dancing: to be honest I never quite believed he wanted it as a career but was happy to be proven wrong and he was so keen to go. 
 

We could stretch to private if we had to which I guess is something. I will speak to his house mistress today and get her view too. Maybe it’ll settle but it feels like if the basic reason for being there is no longer there, then the school will never fit.  

@Whiteduvet In my own experience, gut feelings I've had in similar circumstances about my children have usually turned out to be reliable - I think parents are possibly able to tune into non-verbal cues when things just don't seem to add up, so it isn't such a surprise when everything seems to take a u-turn. I'd also just add that 11 years old is really 11 years still-very-young .... 

1 hour ago, Dancers Dad said:

Not sure if this was a London-specific question, but if not - when we researched accommodation for our daughter in Manchester, there were options to rent for 51 weeks or 38 (? or thereabouts) weeks but it was a considerably higher price for the lower number of weeks, which meant that you were paying pretty much the same anyway (in fact, a touch more I think) over the year! So always worth checking the two costs.

Thanks - that's really helpful. Simple examples are a lot easier to picture than abstract possibilities!

7 hours ago, NJH said:

depends on the  accomodation contract same  as  any other Student accomodation... 

Yh, I know - that's why I was asking Ballet4Boyz if they'd mind sharing info about their specific example of how it works for them 🙂

13 hours ago, Ballet4Boyz said:

Yes ….. its so important to look into accommodation costs as they will differ significantly depending on where your DC decides to study/train.

Our DS is in his first year (degree course) at Central School of Ballet - he has a student loan to cover the cost of tuition fees which are just over £9k per year and a maintenance loan which covers around half of his accommodation costs per year. He pays £229 per week for a shared en-suite room in a nice halls of residence (in a nice area) . There are cheaper halls available but not significantly cheaper if you want a reasonable area. Failing that - you have to live further out of the city for cheaper rental deals . On top of this he needs money for food/toiletries/travel/laundry which we have to fund. He tends to work during the summer to save up for his ‘socialising costs’ 

 

It’s all very costly when you then add in medical insurance and dance uniform every year ! 
Best to be forewarned though x

Just for info ... does he pay the weekly cost for accommodation in the holidays too (so paying 52 weeks per year), or just in term time? 

On 31/10/2021 at 16:33, Dance*is*life said:

I spend half of my classes trying to get my students to lower their legs and correct their turnout and hip placement.  I'm forever explaining that some exercises are better taken with lower legs and that a pure beautiful line is more important than legs round their ears at every opportunity!  It's an uphill slog because of all those instagram and tiktok posts.  Just before corona we were honoured with a visit from Natalia Osipova, who came to dance Giselle.  She gave the most wonderful  master class and really impressed upon the students how purity of line and the quality of arm movements were far more important than flinging legs around and no-one can say that she doesn't lift her legs to perfection!

Yes! I love this.

Is there a danger that this will be lost, do you think? (If future generations of dancers - and audiences - are more concerned with leg height than line?)

On 31/10/2021 at 16:18, Dance*is*life said:

It is probably not relevant to the current situation, but I do wonder if parents should intervene more.   In my last year at RBS upper school - many, many moons ago - my mother actually took matters into her own hands and sorted out my problems.  At the beginning of the year I was placed in a class with a teacher I adored and then they suddenly transferred me to another class, where I was simply miserable.  My brave mum went up to school and confronted them at this seemingly arbitrary decision - I had systematically been in the top four of my class for the first two years.  Within two weeks, I was transferred back and had a magical year.  I think they were so astounded that a parent would actually question their decisions, that they acted quickly.  As a teacher I sometimes get parents coming to talk to me or our Dance Principal, in spite of their child telling them not to say anything.  When this happens, we are always receptive to the real or perceived problem and act accordingly in the student's best interests.   I do appreciate that an afternoon ballet school cannot be compared to the elite vocational schools,  but I do believe that a child's wellbeing is more important than ruffling a few feathers.

I wonder if perhaps programmes like "Dance Moms" have changed the background though .... although I agree that factors still work against parents risking making complaints at vocational school level, there's possibly more of a defensive knee-jerk reaction to parents making complaints now ... a "them and us" attitude to holding parents at bay ...?

Slipping through my fingers - 

8 hours ago, FlexyNexy said:

I refused to be swept by the ballet wave and I always wanted for my DD to have both "normal" life and ballet world. We did not even look into auditioning for lover schools as I did not see the reason why she should...most of the kids do not receive pass to the upper schools anyway.

Nail on head 👍

On 03/10/2021 at 19:27, Neverdancedjustamum said:

I remember going through a lot of these threads when my DD was in years 5/6 as I knew this question would come up and the possibility of her wanting to go “full time” at 11 was likely because a lot of peers at dance school were very intense and focused with a single goal in mind. Thankfully my DD was never that committed to going full time, and perhaps strangely, was never really interested in going to what I believe is the top school of choice for most at age 11. However, my point is that in speaking to a LOT of parents in the last few years, despite knowing full well of these concerns and being aware of threads such as this, if given the offer to a certain school, I’d say 99% would accept regardless of whether they think their child will cope. Even those who I spoke to who voiced concerns about 11 being too young to go away seem to forget this when they get the golden ticket, especially to a certain school where they know most people would think it nuts to turn down a full time offer from. Even when they read threads like this, I don’t think it will change their decision and they probably believe their child won’t go through the same and will get “used to it”. I know a lot of parents who are aware of these stories and many more but I also know these same parents won’t turn down an offer given the chance. They will then revert from “11 is too young to go away” to “it’s character building” or “it’s good for them to know the dance world is tough early on” or “it’s the opportunity of a lifetime”.  As someone quite removed from this, I actually don’t know what’s right or wrong but I guess for some it works and their child thrives (or would seem to).  Bottom line is that I have to admit I don’t envy those who have to make this decision soon.

This is so true. Well said. Reality often turns out to be different from imagination .... it's so much harder than can be imagined to find yourself in the position of having to actually make that choice. Kind of like the bystander effect in psychology - everyone says, yes! Of course I'd intervene! But the reality is .... that the reality of the situation erodes those imagined choices of action, and very few act in reality as they would in their imagination. It's just human nature - I'm not judging anyone here. Just saying perhaps that it's something to look out for if you're in that position of having to make a choice.

More details re musicians in this article .... sounds like an absolute minefield ... https://www.nme.com/news/music/government-accused-of-spin-and-meaningless-posturing-for-latest-brexit-touring-claims-3012001

Sadly, it doesn't sound as if this latest announcement about musicians is much of a step forwards, if any at all on the current position .... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/05/uk-musicians-to-be-able-to-tour-visa-free-in-19-eu-countries-brexit

No, I don't regret it at all. But having said that, I have always followed my daughter's choices, which has meant giving up a few high-profile places in programmes when she wasn't enjoying them any more, changing focus when that was what she wanted and allowing her to change her mind ... never expecting her to follow my own ideas. She has learned so much over the years and ballet/dance is an integral part of the person she has become, even although she no longer wishes to pursue dance vocationally. 

On 28/03/2021 at 23:22, Pups_mum said:

Maybe there needs to be more development opportunities for dancers who don't aspire to a professional career? The process of selection as a potential professional starts so young, when a child can't possibly understand the implications. Really what is needed are enrichment opportunities- the chance to do more of what they love, without it being a precursor to, well, anything  - art for art's sake if you like. I

Yes, this - absolutely this. It's sadly incredibly difficult to find workshops etc without a vocational focus for teenagers dancing at Advanced level. And this vocational focus also seems to stimulate an element of competition among the participants, no matter how friendly they are .... and conversations that inevitably lead to questions such as "Where are you auditioning?" etc etc. For my own daughter, who isn't on a professional pathway, this whole atmosphere has put her off joining workshops and summer courses at a level that she would undoubtedly have enjoyed if there had been more of a focus on enrichment rather than vocation!

Sorry to hear about the rejections ... can only say that it's very, very common. One thing that may help is to know that it often isn't the case that anything is actually "wrong" or "not good enough" .... just that there's lots of competition and the students that were selected may have scored only a miniscule point in one area over your own daughter ... but because of the numbers applying, that miniscule difference on the day is all that it takes. 

I understand however that that can be little comfort when there's no feedback and you can't be sure. Perhaps asking for an independent assessment might help ....? Emma Northmore comes to mind here .... someone with lots of experience of the things different schools are looking for. It would, of course, be a second opinion and not necessarily an accurate reflection of what the schools actually noted themselves, but if you could share your audition videos with someone in this way, it would at least be based on the exact same performances that the school saw.

Just a thought .... and good luck for the future. Something will work out .... and it isn't as if there's any rush at the moment, given the lack of actual performing opportunities right now .... (a topic for a different thread, I imagine!).

When "feet" are mentioned, I always think of Dilly Greasley! 

Speaking from my own observations, I think it's important to remember that the children whose experiences are overly managed by a parent when they are young often go on to frustrate that parent when they hit puberty and discover their own voice. Sadly, some internalise that frustration and turn their voice against themselves in terms of developing depression and other mental health problems. The happiest young children (in terms of this current discussion) are always those who are supported in following and exploring their interests, whether those interests conflict with a parent's own ambitions for them or not.

Edited to add: which is why I think it's great that you are questioning the environment you find yourself in