joyofdance

Well said dramascientist. Our middle child has just graduated from uni and our daughter has secured a contract, me and my husband have just worked out how much financially better off we are going to be over a year. It was always a worry if any of us were made redundant etc whilst our daughter was at vocational school, especially GCSE time, it would have meant her coming home. A lot of parents are constantly under that pressure, your talented child secures a place at a top vocational school, finances are worked out, then bang redundency. Thankfully that never happened to us, but it did sadly happen to some families where a child could no longer continue at that school, very very sad.

That is my fear Tulip. The organisation I work for has just made a lot of people redundant. I am lucky as my skill base is transferable so I would probably find a job fairly quickly if I got made redundant, but its still a worry. You never know when things are going to change. I have had a couple of years of ill health (all sorted now thank goodness) but it put us back quite a lot and we had to make a lot of changes and go without things that we had previously enjoyed. Fortunately my children are healthy and happy and that keeps me smiling and makes all the struggle worth while.

Just to get a little rant in, after all the years of hard, tough work, when a dancer finally secures a contract, very often the pay is so poor that parents need to keep paying a top up towards accommodation etc. Sometimes I wish my daughter had have stuck to academics and gone to uni like her brothers, it definitely would have made life soooooo much easier.

The problem now Tulip is that Uni is like that these days. We pay for our dd uni accom, the loan covers fees and she works to cover day to day living and she will still come away with thousands of pounds of debt. Its tough in this country for anyone to succeed sadly.

It's a shame Muddled mama when dancing and gymnastics get confused - hopefully she will rediscover her love of dance...

Agreed Sarah but I really understand the pressure that Muddlemums daughter is under. It seems that some dance schools think that doing an ariel is the be all and end all of dance. The kids often rate themselves and each other on the ability to do tricks. Frankly I get very bored of dances that are full of tricks. They are often souless.

Lisa, its great to go in to your bank account and find a windfall. My eldest gets a grant to top up the loan because of our income. Its a real help. 

Muddledmamma, funnily enough my daughter is very flexible and is put under pressure to overstretch and learn tricks. I used to encourage it because I thought it was the right thing to do but through this forum and other conversations with people I have learnt that it isnt. I have been talking to her about this and showing her articles (drdance put a really good one on her fb page the other day) She is now feeling confident enough to not be put under pressure and understands how important it is to practice safely. She is 12 though so at an age where she is interested in things and open to looking at research. 

Some of you have hit the nail on the head re costs, its the travelling. time off of work, etc that also adds to the cost. Its really expensive for us to get to London so that is out of the question. Some of my daughters friends go to Pineapple regularly but we cant manage that. I know private lessons are sensible but she enjoys the group things, making friends etc so we cant have regular privates and classes.

Its good to hear that I am not the only one with these problems...Damn I forgot to buy a lottery ticket...again.

Stirrups

Re performance courses as opposed to training opportunities, i am learning as i go along really and starting to understand what the difference is and what the benefits are etc. My daughter has been dancing for a few years but I still feel relatively new to all this. I was with a dance school previously that didnt allow us to do anything externally so i wasnt aware of all the things that were available. I am less restricted now so have started investigating opportunities and coming across the high prices. This forum is really helpful in that the advice given is invaluable and helping me to make informed choices. When money is tight its important that i spend it wisely. i have an older child at Uni so there are significant finacial pressures there.

drdance, I would have sloped off quietly but the fact that you did add that sentence about having any difficulty gave me the confidence to get in touch. I have declined things before based on affordability and have felt really uncomfortable, one particular time I was told that "dedicated parents find the finances" after that I wouldnt have paid for their service even if I had it but it does put you off approaching the subject. Thanks to you my daughter is getting an opportunity that wouldnt have been available to her. Maybe others will follow your example, we can but hope.

Ballet, as also other activities, is sometimes a good example of the 'Matthew effect'.

I.e. To those who have, more will be given 

That sums up how I feel at times stirrups. I hear a lot of parents talking about how their child auditioned for so and so and got in but what they dont say is that they have had, extra classes, zillions of privates, lessons on auditions etc. It stops me applying for things because I think, I just cant compete. Its the same on the festival circuit. Most of the kids that do well are hot housed with all the extra input. Lol Im starting to sound bitter now but honestly Im not its just a fact of life.

Agreed Tulip. Obviously the child needs to have the talent in the first place but like you say, fine tuning that talent is costly. That is where I get a bit frustrated when I see things advertised. I cant remember exactly what is was but recently I saw an opportunity for children to get involved in a ballet production. It was with one of the elite schools but I cant remember which one. I looked in to it further and it costs £575.00. I couldnt justify spending that (as much as I would love to). I know this is a fact of life and pretty much the same in all area,s, if you cant afford it, you cant have it but it just saddens me that prices are so high in dance. A lot of my daughters peers have weekly ballet privates at £50 a lesson or go regularly to London to do workshops etc. Interestingly not all of them can actually afford it so it isnt all about privlidge. I recently heard of a parent taking out a wonga loan type thing to send her daughter to a residential workshop. Having said that, I know that drdance (Emily) has offered the opportunity for people to pay in instalments if they are struggling. She is the only person I have ever come across that does that. I am not moaning about being out priced (honest) it just feels unfair and unobtainable at times and I wondered if others felt the same.

Hi. I thought I would start this new thread as this subject is one that I have wondered about for a while. I see lots of dance opportunities such as workshops, summer schools, associate schemes, the recent opportunity for children to become involved in a ballet etc that I would love for my daughter to do.

Unfortunately they are often costly (on top of general dance tuition) so I am pretty much prevented from applying. I would have really loved for my daughter to have done a summer school this year but I just couldnt afford it.

Private lessons are also costly. She is not my only child and family finances only go so far. I dont know much about dance but I think my daughter is probably a talented and good dancer but not exceptional or extremely talented. This means that she probably wouldnt get a  scholarships etc if they were available

.I suppose what I am trying to say is that, do any of you ever feel "priced out" of your child having the opportunity to reach their potential, improve etc. Most of the kids that I have seen get to good schools and get scholorships/funding are kids that already seem to have more classes, private lessons, summer schools etc so whilst I am not taking anything away from them in terms of talent or potential they do have a head start. 

When I win the lottery (I had better start buying tickets) amongst other things I am going to set up a fully funded school with fantastic training that takes the "good" kids rather that the exceptional ones. Maybe then our good little dancers could have the opportunity to become exceptional dancers.

I would be interested in your thoughts, experience re the feeling of being "priced out"

Nice idea - but DBS does not mean that they are safe. A better thing would be to try and encourage teachers to complete the SiDI Safe dance practice certification and advertise the heck out of that - but that is quite a tricky certificate and isn't cheap so why would teachers do it when they've already got loads of students?

Agreed drdance. All of the teachers at my old dance school had DBS checks. It didnt alter their behaviour. A DBS only really tells you whether someone has been convicted or investigated around safeguarding issues. I dont know of the safe practice certificate. Maybe the campaign should be around lobbying for this to be compulsory. Does the certificate look at safety around emotional and psychological wellbeing?

I am not, in any way, saying that any of the teachers cited on this thread should be in any way excused their behaviour (just realised that my post could be read in that way).

 

I suppose what I mean is that a teacher may not be the best possible teacher for a child even when their behaviour and approach is absolutely appropriate, just not optimal for that child. Over the years that DD has been at her dance school, some children have left for other schools citing the approach of one or more teachers as a reason, and some have arrived from other schools, equally citing the approach of the teachers there as a reason to move the way that they did.

I agree with you to a certain extent Parentaxi and the reason I delayed acting on my concerns or the stories I was being told was for this very reason. In my case I witnessed this awful behaviour against other children and my child and it wasnt about different teaching styles or perceptions. It was very obviously unnacceptable abusive behaviour. The dance school principle almost had me convinced that my daughter was overly sensitive or prone to sulking and even stated that she was a spoilt child. She told me that I needed to let her grow up and stand on her own two feet. She was ten years old at the time.

I agree Melody however I have to admit (embarrassed as I am) that for a short period of time I allowed myself to be sucked in to the propaganda expelled by more experienced dance Mums that "this is the way dance teachers discipline, its a tough world out there, its the same in all dance schools, that they only shout at the ones that are talented/ have potential and various other ridiculous statements/excuses that some dance parents use to justify incredibly poor practice for fear of their child being thrown out of the school. Also parents would talk about how the dance schools were all in cahoots and that another dance school wouldnt take your child etc as you would be reported as being a difficult parent. At that time I hadnt seen some of the shocking stuff I was later to witness but in hindsight what I had seen was bad enough. I did discuss my concerns gently and professionally with the school regarding what I had seen and from then on my daughter became a target and the abuse escalated, I would never have allowed or not challenged that sort of behaviour in any other area and for the time I witnessed it I felt angry, guilty and like I was failing my daughter by keeping her there. She hated the treatment but didnt want to leave as she had a lot of friends there. In the end I just decided that enough was enough and that I was paying these people a huge amount of money to effectively destroy my daughters confidence. Anyway I suppose what I am trying to say is that it is a hard culture to break (this school still operates like that but publicly pretends to be sweetness and light with the childrens best interest at heart) and ultimately you end up having to leave. None of this is excuses, I am ashamed and angry with myself that I let it go on as long as I did, its just sometimes even the most intelligent and committed parents make mistakes.

Sorry but I had to pick up on this.

 

Firstly who says their exam results are good? Do they publish all their results for all children? Is there info complete and factual? Does it take into account the amount of hours or private lessons? And, exam success in itself doesn't foster creativity or confidence. 

 

Same goes for competitions. It's all subjective on the part of adjudicators and at the end of the day they still have to get into college or vocational school and there's a real risk they won't make it that far if they are injured or their spirit is crushed. 

 

The head of a leading dance casting agency who teaches at Pineapple said to me just last week that he was concerned about the levels some children were dancing at. His point was about them being in their careers for the long term and not being burned out before they had even started. 

 

I do agree that exams and competitions can both be good measures of success but not exclusively and not with the amount of pressure, bitching, manipulation etc that all goes with it. I wish more parents would put this in context of the the whole picture. 

Agreed Annaleisey. I dont care about exams etc. I just want my daughter to love and appreciate the art of dance. 

Thanks Annaleisey. We have since met some lovely people and equally lovely children. It just takes a long time to get the bad taste out of your mouth re these experiences. I see posts from parents on fb who have been treated terribly and their children ridiculed and yet they sing the most sychophantic praises about the school. I am sometimes tempted to post something like, "oh how lovely, clearly you have gotten over your child being called, fat, useless, pathetic etc or are you just choosing to ignore that" . 

Muddlemama, I am so sorry that your daughter was treated so appallingly, that school should be reported. I really hope someone has. My daughters experience was similar to your daughters but for different reasons. She was never hit, I would have called the police and had the teacher prosecuted if I saw any child being hit. She and others were screeched at, humiliated, compared to peers etc. Before leaving I spoke to the school at length about my concerns but they didnt take a thing on board. They have been teaching like this for years and because they do get good exam and competition results at best they think that it is justified and at worst they dont see anything that they do as being wrong. Their teaching style is still the same. I have been in the dance school when the owner and teacher openly criticed parents and their children behind their backs and Said some horrific nasty things. A lot of the parents attitude is, "well it isnt happening to my child". but deep down they know that the minute their back is turned its being said about them. Some of the parents buy the owners elaborate presents, they accept them then laugh about the parent behind their backs. All in all a truly toxic environment. Like your daughter, mine is much happier and her confidence and self esteem has improved since leaving. These schools do so much damage and parents collude with them so they never get taken to task. Very sad indeed.

The fact that people think that "a good standard of teaching" includes screaming at, ridiculing, bullying children is the issue. The results may well be good (at least in examinations, competitions etc), but any teaching that involves this kind of psychological abuse is NOT good. Perhaps parents are getting "good" results and good teaching confused. 

 I couldnt agree more. My daughter has been much happier since leaving our old dance school. I would never under any circumstances allow her to be put in that type of environment again.

Myself and my partner are conflicted at times re the teaching style of some schools. We dont want our daughter being taught unsafe practice and age innapropriate dances but we dont have a huge range of schools to choose from in terms of travel etc. The school she attended previously is one of the best around in terms of teaching standard but their practice is not unlike the poster that you mentioned Dr Dance. We felt that we couldnt continue to let our daughter be screamed at, ridiculed and effectively bullied how ever good the standard of teaching. I am still in touch with a few parents there and they are well aware of this behaviour but they choose to ignore it, defend it or tolerate it all in the name of good standards. If you complain or challenge you are seen as being a difficult parent and then ultimately it is then taken out on your child. The bullying behaviour of the other children is ignored and again any complaint and you are labelled as jealous because they are better dancers than your child. It can be quite nasty in the world of dance.  I love the fact that my daughter dances and want her to continue but in all honesty I am very dissapointed in the dance world. Someone please cheer me up lol and tell me that it isnt all like that and that there are good schools out there.

The school sounds horrific. How anyone can think that pushing a child so far that they vomit is  acceptable let alone beneficial. Sadly it doesnt surprise me, the no pain no gain attitude is in a lot of schools. The school that made the children remove underwear is very worrying. My daughter belonged to a very pushy and aggressive dance school and it really knocked her confidence. Quite a lot of the children behaved the same way as some of the teachers so it became a horrible environment to be in. If the children were not pushy and overly competative they were accuse of being "not dedicated"The sad thing is that a lot of the parents think this is normal and will sacrifice almost anything (including their children) because they think that their little darlings are destined for fame. 

That was really interesting to read Annaliesy. You must be so proud of your DD, her insight and tenacity is extremely admirable. X

I managed to watch some more of it. The portuguese dancers were amazing and really raised the standard. I have a feeling that they probably belong to full time ballet schools.There are far more entries from England compared to other countries so I imagine they will win overall. I have enjoyed watching although I struggled to sit through the Hip hop and street dance last night.

I have heard that too Pixiewoo. My DD goes to school with a girl that is there with her dance school and she says lots of negative things about the pressure and bullying at her dance school. My DD.s dance school only do small local festivals and they are open to all children to join in with. I think that is much healthier.

I would like to see that 2littledancers. Is there a way of finding certain sections to watch that were missed? I watched a bit more this evening. I thought the ballet group that won, I think they were from Portugal, were really lovely. The greek solo;s were impressive as well. 

I feel a bit awful and guilty because I have watched some of it and have not been particularly impressed by the standard. Admittedly I have only watched a few hours here and there. Some of the children are very talented but on the whole I havent been that impressed. I have never seen any of the previous world cups or ever followed anything like that etc so maybe my expectations were too high. Much of the dancing is equal to and in some cases not as good as some dancing Ive seen at small dance festivals. That doesnt take away from the joy and beauty of it all and the amazing experience and opportunity for the children. All that is really important, if not more important than the standard. Others may not agree and no offence intended so apologies if I have offended anyone. I am sure all of your DD's and DD's were wonderful. it just wasnt what I expected.

That sound great drdance.I have ruled out a full week residential as it just isnt affordable. I will look on your website. 

Thankyou Sarah