invisiblecircus

How is it going, Lisa?

How old will your DD be on 1st September next year and what is her aim after completing the one year?

I'm a former professional dancer and have some herniated discs in my spine. I also had terrible sciatica during my third pregnancy and it has occasionally re-surfaced since I had the baby 2 years ago. The herniated discs were diagnosed with an MRI scan. My doctor can't say whether dance was the cause, but he said it's something that occurs over a long period of time. I was also told that the sciatica is something I am more susceptible to because of the herniated discs.

Has your partner had any scans of the spine?

It doesn't sound as if the thyroid problem is connected to the back pain but I'm not a doctor. I have autoimmune hypothyroidism for which I take thyroxine every day, but it isn't connected to the problem with my back.

Dance*is*life, I'm so happy to see you posting again.

14 hours ago, DD Driver said:

Personally, I think it is right to encourage 'more balance'  - there is some crazy behaviour that goes on - but at the same time children and adults who strive to excel are unlikley to be living an idealised version of the 'balanced life'.  Aspiring Olympic swimmers are getting up at 4am while I snooze away.  Young musicians who wish to get into a high school with a strong music program, then a conservatory and then an orchestra, spend many grueling hours in practice.

I agree on both points. To achieve a balance is important for so many reasons. Not only to ensure a back-up plan if dance doesn't work out or if the student changes his or her mind, but also to develop a more well-rounded dancer and person. In such a competitive field though, it is understandable that everyone is trying to give themselves an edge by adding on extra hours training where they can.

11 hours ago, Viv said:

I think as part of a graduated program towards full time or upper school training, it doesn't seem unreasonable. Whether it's physically possible, or you have access to this amount of training locally is another matter, but she does say this is across all genres and would include things like associates and youth ballet productions.

I'm not saying I think it's unreasonable, I was just surprised after saying in the first video that you don't need to be doing 25 hours a week until 2/3 years before you graduate into a company, that she then said you should aim for up to 20 hours at 14. From the way the first video was presented, it seemed as if she was going to recommend far fewer hours.

9 hours ago, Viv said:

It also seems in line with the hours provided by other reputable organisations aiming to train kids for professional careers.

It would certainly be interesting to hear the views of various training institutions on this issue. Accademia Teatro alla Scala in trains 10 year old for 3 1 hour lessons per week.

After the first video, I was surprised to hear how many hours she was recommending. 14-17 hours per week for a 13 year old, 17-20 hours per week for a 14 year old.

Is it a ballet school or musical theatre course she's doing? Not that it makes much difference when it comes to finding funding but it changes what other options are available.

More on the topic from Claudia Dean:
 

I think Miko Fogarty and Claudia Dean's situations are very different and can't really be compared.

I hear what people are saying about the possible difficulties with "just" being in the corps when you're used to being in the spotlight and performing solos, but aside from that, you need a very different mindset to rehearse and compete than you do to rehearse and perform (in the corps or otherwise.) Everyone is doing class every day, but when you're on the competition circuit, that one perfect performance is your goal.

Before I went to vocational school, I did and then coached gymnastics. the kind of mentality, focus and drive needed to compete in gymnastics is akin to that needed for ballet competitions, but life in a company is very different. When you're performing night after night, it's a different kind of thrill.

I often think this about dancers who compete a lot. I'm not suggesting that's what happened to Miko, in fact, with her I would not be surprised if it's just a case of being so immersed in ballet from such a young age that she simply didn't have time to discover what else is out there.

11 minutes ago, Duck said:

 

The article in the link here https://www.dancemagazine.com/in_training_training_in_germany-2306939803.html mentions further schools (some come with a focus on contemporary dance).  

 

 

Thanks for the link, That's a very interesting article, especially this part:

"[…]roughly 50 percent of advanced students come from abroad at most German schools (80 percent at the School of the Hamburg Ballet)."

RBS had around 38% foreign students last year. I think this figure is across the whole school though. I don't know the figure for just Upper School where it is surely higher.

14 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Monaco only has a population of about 38,000

Of which around 80% are foreign nationals.

13 minutes ago, Duck said:

As for the number of places at schools abroad, I would assume that the places at the John Cranko School in Stuttgart, Hamburg Ballet School and the schools in Berlin and Munich add up to a number that is - roughly - similar to the number of places at top schools in the UK. 

There ARE a lot of top schools in Germany, as well as top companies of course! I'm curious as to whether there are other schools in germany that provide professional ballet training beside those you mentioned.

1 hour ago, Ellie said:

If you have a look at the sites of Princess Grace Academy, Hamburg Ballet School, Cranko,  Zurich...and so on...You'll probably find that many of the graduates are not native to the country.

Well yes, Princess Grace (where I trained btw ) is unique in that more often than not, none of their students are native to the country. You are right that all the schools you mentioned are in high demand from foreign students, just as RBS is.

49 minutes ago, Mnemo said:

In saying that lower school training in UK is rather too careful ( an interesting POV that is certainly shared by some US vocational teachers that I have met), is this saying that UK training is too protective and unwilling to take injury risks with growing bodies? Or that the UK Education authorities insistence that everyone gets taught the national curriculum up to age 16, and does the requisite number of hours of study is too restrictive? or both? 

Actually neither! I meant that in UK schools there is  a tendency to spend a lot of time on perfecting the basics before teaching more advanced steps. Insisting on an impecable relevé retiré or single pirouette before moving on to doubles and triples. In some other countries you'll see youngsters doing triple and quad turns with not the greatest style, but they gain the confidence with those skills and can then concentrate on perfecting them.

Since you mention it though, schools in the UK ARE unwilling to take injury risks with growing bodies, but I think this can only be a good thing. I don't think they are too protective.  Wasn't there a director of an overseas school a while ago who said they push their students very hard, and sure, some get injured but there are Always more students to take their places?

On ‎06‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 13:45, Mnemo said:

What also fuels this discontent, is the perception that it is not entirely a 2 way street. Yes, there are a number of dc cited on this forum that have trained very successfully at schools in other countries, however this is seen as a remarkable achievement and not the norm? There is a sense that dance schools in other countries ensure a good proportion of places go to their home students, whereas UK schools do not do so. I have no way of knowing how true this is. Thoughts anyone?

Firstly, I think there are far fewer places at elite schools in other countries with the possible exception of the United States which I don't know much about.

Secondly, I think there is a huge cultural element at play here. British students seem less inclined to want to train abroad, possibly because there are lots of options at home, possibly for academic reasons, and certainly in many cases for linguistic reasons.

Furthermore, it is understandable that many parents would be reluctant to send their children overseas to train for lower school, but as I touched on in my previous post, lower school training tends to be somewhat slower paced that that in other countries which is compensated by the three years at upper school. This means that a 16 year old who has been through the system in the UK might not be as advanced as a 16 year old training in a country where they complete their training and are ready to go into companies at 17 or 18.

I disagree with the idea that schools in other countries ensure a good proportion of places go to their home students and that this is different in the UK, but I would be very interested to hear other people's opinions on this.

2 hours ago, Kate_N said:

 

A really excellent point! 

Thanks! Shame it was written with such poor grammar. I really didn't mean to write "too" twice in the above sentence! Argghh!

15 hours ago, Melody said:

One thing that bothers me a bit, reading some of the above posts, is that I've seen a few mentions of WL looking for a particular body type as the major criterion, over and above things like musicality or even dance ability (someone please tell me if I've got this wrong). But I've also seen comments along the lines of "of course, bodies change, you don't always know what an 11-year-old will look like at 16."

 

While I understand that a vocational ballet school isn't going to take a spherical 11-year-old, however musical and light on her feet she is, it seems a bit short-sighted to be that focused on long legs and long neck and small ears or whatever, rather than musicality and dance potential, especially in light of how bodies change as girls hit puberty. I sometimes wonder if Margot Fonteyn would get into White Lodge if she showed up today.

It's always a balance, and that's sometimes why a student can be accepted at one school and not another. In the end, ALL schools want the right physique as well as musicality and talent and will accept students who have everything, but no one is perfect. The candidate with the best musicality might not be the one with the most suitable physique. Her acceptance will depend on whether her physique is nevertheless suitable for ballet.  Physiques do change and it's hard to predict what a 10 or 11 year old will look like after puberty, but it's a lot more common for slim 11 year old to develop a heavier build than it is for a heavier one to become more lean after puberty.

Also, a lot has been said on the rate of attrition at White Lodge and why isn't the school good enough to get everyone to the standard of the Amazing international students who get taken into upper school. I'll say that my personal opinion is that lower school training in the UK is rather too careful, but even disregarding that, it is imperative to remember that there is a high attrition rate at ALL schools that train from 10/ 11. We see some amazing students from Australia, China, Japan and elsewhere but you can be certain that the schools where they received their early training lost a lot of students too in the preceeding 6 years too.

How old is your daughter and has she been in a vocational school in the UK?
What are her options in the UK if she does not accept this scholarship?
Do you know about the graduate destinations of that particular school and whether students have gone on to secure contracts overseas? I've heard in the past that Visa issues could be a problem but am not sure of the current situation. However, there are plenty of companies abroad she could audition for.

What does your DD want to do?

Fantastic news, Julie! Congratulations to your daughter on qualifying and on getting a job and all best wishes for the future :-)

11 hours ago, BlueLou said:

As for other similar schools - Trinity Laban also offer a BA in Contemporary Dance. 

 

In addition to Laban, there is also Northern School of Contemporary Dance in Leeds and London Studio Centre.

1 hour ago, capybara said:

ENB regards dancers who come via the Prix de Lausanne as Artists. They might well be on one year contracts initially but they do not appear to be within a separate 'category' as at the RB.

Yes, although I understand that Shale (and Others) was offered an ongoing contract, otherwise ENB would not have needed to offer anything because as the first prize winner they were obligated to take him for the year under the conditions of the PDL.

The Prix website always lists the prize winners as being awarded a scholarship or an apprenticeship depending on which age category they were in because that is what they're funding. Some companies might choose to offer a full contract to a prize winner from the outset if they're really interested in them so as not to lose them to a company offering a better contract! This must be a dilemma for dancers with the ambition to join the RB as the company often don't keep on the apprenticeships after the initial year. Notably, none of this years prize winners chose the RB for their apprenticeship and I wonder if this is the reason.

Is it the Btec level 3 National Extended Diploma in Dance she is thinking of doing? I can't see another Btec course listed on their website.

Does the Stage newspaper still have a forum? That was the first forum I ever joined and there was a section there about training.

This is the first piece that springs to mind

53 minutes ago, CeliB said:

By the way I don't think the freedom the students are allowed in russia is greatly different to other places. DS found it no more restrictive than USA and if you are in moscow or st P you are right in the heart of the city so don't have to wrestle with transport much

 They do have a curfew in the dorms but it's quite reasonable. ..

Happy to be corrected! I don't know what the situation was at your DS's school in the USA but I know that in Russia, accomodation is provided by the school whereas at some of the British vocational upper schools, including Central which OP mentioned, students live independently, often without supervision and are responsible for their own meals, laundry, cleaning etc.

I lived in a dorm and curfew was at 7pm whether you were 10 or 20! As an older student I would have preferred more freedom and independence but younger students, especially those living away from home for the first time, might feel more secure with supervised accomodation and meals provided.