Lindsay

Thanks Vanartus - that is interesting

Exactly Aileen.  Productions reflect not only the original text but the *zeitgeist* (to put it crudely) of the era of performance. In the 80s I saw TMOV set in a modern dress "yuppy" office environment, clearly emphasising the theme of "greed", free markets and getting rich quick which might have been thought of as the prevailing sentiment at the time.  More recent productions have focussed on Shylock as the "other" or outsider, more in keeping with the political and social concerns at the forefront of our current news agenda.

Shakespeare is so strong and his plays so rich that they can be "mined" for interesting insights again and again.

I would say the same for the best Romantic ballets, Swan Lake for example, with its dualism of good and evil (everything from Freudianism to gender issues can be supported by that).  But I'm afraid I'm not sure the story of the Two Pigeons, which felt very slight to me, is sufficiently robust or memorable to have stood the test of time.

"Authorial" (I suppose, in this case choreographical) intent is not an immutable thing though Fonty.  Every directors/stager/performer offers us their interpretation of a work.  That is why art is exciting and why we go to live theatre! Otherwise we could just have one film of every ballet ever made and watch it over and over again (I exaggerate to make the point but hopefully you will get what I mean).

A work of art is a living thing and the best lend themselves to interesting new insights from every director/performer who tackles them.

I don't think The Merchant is unfashionable aileen.  I've seen at least two RSC productions in the past few years and there was the Al Pacino film.  But the point is that you wouldn't perform it now in the same way as they would in the 19th century, with Shylock as stereotypical monster.  He is a nuanced character, unsympathetic of course, but recent productions tend to portray him (perfectly possible without bending the script) as bitter because of the treatment he receives from the Venetians, rather than simply innately grasping and vindictive because he is Jewish.  

I am not saying, and no sensible person would, that all minority characters need to be portrayed in a positive light (only the Richard Littlejohns of this world simplify PC arguments to that extent in order to dismiss them) but that they need to be portrayed as complex human beings. Which, as you rightly say, Shakespeare gives us the script to do!

But Janet, a performance taking place today, even of a work which was created many years ago is not an historic event.  Performance culture is a living thing and changes in every time and place - for example, I can't imagine many forumites being happy if crowds at the opera house still ate, flirted, wandered around and cat-called the performers as they did in the early years of Italian opera.  The same applies to the performances on stage - art which is set in aspic is missing the point.

One person's "PC rubbish" might be another person's "respect" Mab. Whether it is fashionable or unfashionable to perpetuate offensive stereotypes about particular racial groups, I simply don't want to watch it.

Are those the only two options MAB? Cannot we reflect upon art as a product of its time, acknowledging those aspects of it which feel (for some people) uncomfortable by modern standards and frame modern productions/interpretations in the light of that consideration?  

This has happened for a long time in theatre (when was the last time you saw a blackfaced Othello - maybe Olivier?) and, increasingly, music (for example recent discussions on orientalism and alla turca themes in the music of Beethoven and others).  It doesn't mean that we reject great art as 'tainted', but we have a conscious debate about it and how it can be understood and meaningful to modern audiences.

I am less aware of that debate happening in relation to ballet, beyond a few critics and dance writers (although I would be delighted to hear of instances) but I think it is important that directors/choreographers are seen to be aware of the issues. There is often a tone-deafness in ballet discourse which can be very jarring (I recall the ROH promotion for Alice including some really awful gushing stuff about the slinky, exotic caterpillar with his harem - no excuse for it being an historic work there).  This can make many people who might otherwise be an audience for ballet (those who are happy to attend contemporary dance performances for example) dismiss it as reactionary and irrelevant and, as someone who loves watching ballet and would like to encourage others to attend, I find that disappointing.

Indeed bangorballetboy - I got the characterisation and thought it well performed, just very much too saccharine for my taste.  

But equally I have no absolutely no issue with those who enjoy it, especially when they respect my right to differ 

whispers at Anne Marriott *I thought Two Pigeons was unbearably twee also, especially the infantile, cutesy steps for the young girl, which is why I didn't write a review and spoil the party*

Fonty you are reading perfectly reasonable expressions of concern, from people who go to and enjoy the ballet but have a sense of unease about some aspects of it, and taking them to a thoroughly illogical conclusion.  There is no need for anyone to feel that they (or ballet) are being personally attacked by discussions like this - it is healthy to have them.

Yes Two Pigeons - sadly you are right that the stereotyping is by no means historic - I think I meant to allude to the period when the gypsy stereotype became "romanticised", especially in music - with all sorts of cod, "authentic" compositions inspired by their music.  

And I totally agree about Petrushka. although the music is of course brilliant.  When ENB did it a couple of years ago, I felt they evaded the issue by casting a black dancer as the Moor, which avoided the need for blackface but still left me feeling very uncomfortable.  Not as bad as Bayadere in Russia with the blackfaced children (do the Russian companies still do this kind of thing in London or New York?) but still awkward...... 

Sim, I imagine it is the stereotyping of gypsies (very common in 19th and early 20th century culture) as dangerous/seductive/dishonest/criminal - a trope representing everything that is opposite to and disruptive of "decent" middle-class Western society.  Encapsulated well in this ballet as the gypsies are the thing tempting the young man away from his "proper" relationship.

Such tropes (also racial stereotypes - see Bayadere, Arabian and Chinese in Nutcracker, Petruchka and even that awful caterpillar in Wheeldon's Alice) are very common in ballet, in a way which would really not be acceptable in theatre nowadays (at least in Western Europe).  It is something that often makes me squirm and wonder why it should be acceptable....

I think theatrical presence is right bridiem. There is a certain stagey (and dare I say camp) aesthetic about much British ballet of that period which performers have to fully embrace otherwise it all looks a bit half hearted and embarrassed.....

Interesting Janet - maybe I shouldn't judge on student performances....

I think it might be a case of careful what you wish for piano lady. The RBS did Checkmate at their summer matinee a few years back and I thought t very poor. Not sure choreography was really Madame's strongest suit....looked very dated and tame

Way back in the 90s before the house closed and shortly after it re-opened when performances were often far from sold out, I remember some of the regulars having "upgrading themselves" down to a fine art. One lady could make it down from balcony standing to an empty stalls seat between the lights dimming and applause for the conductor subsiding. In a half empty amphitheatre it would have been considered an act of lunacy not to promote yourself to the front. If questioned the drill was to brazen it out with the ushers, claim confusion and only retreat to the original seat if the usher insisted - which they rarely did.

Thanks Jamdancer - for saying exactly what I think and putting it so very well

Cavy capers, you are absolutely not alone in noticing the whiteness of ballet audiences. I think the fact that in threads like these (and on other ballet forums) half the posters seem to get their world view from the Daily Mail (the 1930s Daily Mail in some cases) may be a clue to the phenomenon. A less welcoming crowd to anyone who is not "people like us" can hardly be imagined (cf the tedious and massive "audience behaviour" thread for further evidence of intolerance).

I find it astonishing that anyone living in a modern British city cannot see how offensive much of this discussion has been

Thanks for the quick response Bluebird

Do any of you knowledgeable people have any idea what tonight's insight rehearsal will be about?  I have an alternative offer and am wondering whether to return my ticket.  Any information very gratefully received

Thanks in advance

Lindsay

You're quite right. Interesting.  The review reads very much like the great man too.

haha cross-posting.  I was half right - nothing can make him like McGregor.  Clearly not a Woolf fan old Clement - quelle surprise...

I saw it from the Grand Tier and thought that worked well.  You might not get full lighting effects from front of stalls - but I might be mistaken and you would get a more detailed look at the costumes.

My betting is that Clement will hate this - he detests modernism and anything that smacks of intellectualism rather than pure "emotion" and "refinement".  He may also lament that brilliant performances by Ed, Natalia and Steven got lost in the special effects.

Sorry Alison - I realised that was misleading after I typed it.  I meant to say in the 20 years I have been going to the ROH; it was an egotistic measure....

Well! I'm pretty neutral on McGregor generally and find him a bit samey but this was quite different. The first intelligent, "grown-up" work I've seen commissioned at the ROH in my 20 years of on-and-off attending. It helps that I love Virginia Woolf's work but, even for those who don't know it, this captures the spirit of her modernism in conveying IDEAS rather than narrative. So don't get hung up on plot or on names of characters and dancers - that is to miss the point. Edward Watson conveying the agony of a suicidal man doesn't need a back story. Neither does a punk, gender bending middle sequence or a lesbian kiss or a suicidal woman playing with children. Just be open minded and go with it. But if you want to read a couple of chapters of the Waves for atmosphere and an idea of what Woolf was about, all her stuff can be found online for free. And if you are a determined McGregor hater there is loads of it for you to criticise. Something for everyone