taxi4ballet

4 hours ago, LinMM said:

I wasn’t going to comment here again as I now feel this thread should be for parents who have or have had children at vocational schools. 
However it is heart breaking to read that children who really loved to dance are now choosing never to dance again and can get triggered by the very mention of the word ballet. 

There can be so much joy in dancing. 
 

I do hope that for some of these children time can be a healer and even though a career in Dance (as a performer)  may no longer be happening that at some point in the future even if some way off they may be able to pick up their joy again in dancing. 
There are some lovely teachers of adult ballet out there. 
One of my favourite teachers went to RBS as a student and graduated from the school but I know didn’t have a particularly happy or positive experience whilst there but she has re found herself and her joy in dance as it were and is now a truly wonderful positive life affirming teacher. 
 

You will be pleased to know that although it took my DD five years before she even felt able to set foot in a dance studio again, she is now taking adult ballet classes once more, in a place where she feels safe, where nobody knows her, where she can be anonymous so there is no 'expectation', and she can just enjoy dancing again for the fun of it.

It was a while ago my dd was in the audition merry-go-round, but I believe something well into the hundreds for 2-3 dozen places per school, but a lot of people audition at several to up their chances.

57 minutes ago, Kat09 said:

I think that the problem is , often that no two individuals are the same. A cohort of dancers enter the school and during the 3 years (talking US) follow the same path. Some thrive and some wither. This is why these teachers feel that they do no wrong - they don’t believe in nurture, they believe in doing what they have always done.  Those that aren’t tough and resilient are seen as weak - the insidious passive aggressive comments start in the classroom, weaknesses rather than strengths are identified - self doubt creeps in and spirals - there is no safety net , the gap between the achievers and the also ran widens. Parental involvement is discouraged before ,suddenly, a big black hole appears and it’s too late to stop the spiral of despair - another young life broken, dreams shattered and families left to pick up the pieces. The schools can’t wait for the broken to leave, before graduation if possible, so graduate placements and school success aren’t affected. If you think that you can shield and protect your young dancers, believe me you are wrong - I tried - I failed - it’s been a long road to recovery - I feel for everyone of these young dancers affected and their parents.  We’ve been out of the system for a good few years now but every year there are new examples of a regime that has little interest in change - there are far too many that want to chase their dream whatever the cost, to make a change of policy worthwhile.

panorama is the tip of the iceberg, body shaming just one part of the puzzle, there is so much more that needs addressing.

Hi Kat, I think my dd knows your dd, although they are a year or two different in age. There's one thing I can add to that list of yours above - the blatant favouritism shown by some teachers towards a handful of students, and the equally blatant ignoring of others.

4 minutes ago, Jewel said:

I have emailed evidence of complsints policies not being followed. In fact part of my complaint was that a complaint had not been acknowledged within the published tike frame.

Did you know that if you complain verbally, even if you have a meeting, or if your email does not contain certain phrases then it is not classed as a formal complaint?

 

I can believe it. They wouldn't talk to me at all until I emailed them asking for a copy of their student welfare and safeguarding policy document. Within half an hour of me sending that email I had a phone call asking me why I wanted it. I told them that we wanted to get our facts straight. They decided that instead of sending it to me, DH and I could go for a meeting with them and they would give it to us then. They were bricking it in that phone call. By the time we got there for the meeting a few days later, not only had they closed ranks and put up the barricades, I never did get that document. 

Perhaps some parents didn't complain because they knew there was no point, and they would be banging their heads against a brick wall.

After my dd's exit from vocational training, we did tell family and friends what had happened, and they were universally appalled. Several said that we should take the school to court, and we did consider doing that, but dd was against the idea. Why? Firstly because she was too psychologically damaged to even think about the prospect of re-living it all again, and secondly because she was too fond of some of the staff.  "But 'X' and 'Y' were really nice to me and I don't want them to get into trouble". We had to abide by her wishes.

When my dd was about 7 in primary school, there was another child who enjoyed pushing her over, treading on her feet, pinching her pencils and so on. We told the teacher and nothing was done. It went on for months.

So I complained to the head that she was being bullied, and that the staff weren't doing anything. I had a meeting with her in her office. I told her what was happening and she said: "There is no bullying in this school". She then went on to refer me to their robust anti-bullying policy and their excellent Ofsted reports. 

Hypothetical and completely fictitious conversation between two people on a walk around the leafy grounds at a random private school which offers bursaries to students with a talent in a particular field...

Inspector " What a wonderful place you have here. Tell me, Headmaster/Histress, several parents of former pupils have said that they were unhappy about how their children were treated while at the school. What do you say to that?"

Head: "Oh, well I expect the children were simply not talented enough to keep their place at this school, we have to spend the patrons' scholarship money wisely you know, and this is all just sour grapes. The parents can't accept that their children failed".

Inspector "Ah yes, Heamaster/Mistress, I see what you mean... "

5 minutes ago, Graceful said:

I have a teenager and it’s extremely obvious when something is up with them. 
 

What is probably the issue is that parents lead busy lives and miss things. Also, if they see them as thin it’s success to many. Which yes is pretty awful. There are not so good parents out there who want their children to succeed at all costs and will put a massive amount of pressure on them. Surely you know that to be true? 

How many times do I have to say that this is not all about children losing weight? There are many issues with vocational schools and this is only one small aspect of it. My dd's problem had nothing to do with weight or body image whatsoever. I had no idea of the monumental foul-up the staff had made, nor did dd, and by the time we found out, it was too late. I won't go into details, it is too identifying, but she was treated appallingly, she thought she was at fault and a failure, and we thought they were dealing with it. They weren't. In the end, I had to threaten them with legal action before they would even talk to me.

1 minute ago, Graceful said:

The point is that parents are part of the problem. 
 

It comes down to the culture of ballet training as a whole. 
 

Many parents are quite happy to send their children off to intensive after intensive during the holidays. They encourage their children to be ‘yes’ children and don’t complain in case it affects your chances of success. 
 

That will continue whether the schools change or not. 
 

Look at the training in some countries abroad - the successful ones are seen as the best in the world. They were likely put through hell! Parents see that and think that’s what you need to succeed. So they agree with the schools. 
 

If parents all complained and stood up to the schools there would be more change. But they don’t want to see their children not succeed so they stay silent. They’re to blame as well and they make it worse for the rest of us. 
 

 

Totally off-topic, but I know someone who is currently incarcerated in prison for sexual offences against children. He got away with it for years because people liked him, parents trusted him, and it was only when one of the children reached adulthood that she felt able to tell her parents of the historic abuse. Her parents were most definitely not to blame for allowing her to spend time with this man. They were groomed as much as the child was. He was a trusted, respected pillar of the community. Why would any parent not put their faith in him to take care of their child? 

My parental gut instinct went into hyperdrive when we visited one school my DD auditioned at and I couldn't put my finger on why. She was offered a place there but turned it down and thank God she did. She had a seriously bad time where she did go, but it could have been a lot worse.

So I will say to any parent considering a vocational place for their dc, if your gut instinct is going against both heart and head, there could be a reason why.  Pay heed to it, and don't take your eye off the ball for a second.

38 minutes ago, Graceful said:

But parents do have a hand in it and it would be naive to say otherwise. 
 

‘Pushy dance mum’ isn’t a saying for no reason. There will be some who are quite happy to see their children become top of the class for doing all the ‘right’ things the school say to do, when in fact a lot of those ‘right’ things have a detrimental affect on their child. 
 

There are parents who encourage being skinny because it equates with success. 
 

Not to say that of course the schools needs to protect children, but it’s a combination of things. 
 

Even in the documentary it was clear some of those parents had an idea of what was going on before it got worse. Maybe they keep their children there because the children beg to stay, but surely parents have to take some responsibility. 
 

I don’t think it’s helpful blaming the schools entirely. We’re all dance parents and even we know when we’ve made mistakes. 

People can be as pushy a parent as they like, but that will not get their child into the Royal Ballet School. 

You think parents have to take some responsibility. Really? Bearing in mind that many of these children are in their mid-late teens and deliberately don't or can't bring themselves to tell their parents what's going on, I think that's somewhat unfair. 

2 hours ago, Ruby Foo said:

.....Under no circumstances would my dc have EVER reported bullying, abuse or any negative behaviour from teachers, the houseparents or the school in general whether it was completely confidential or not. The clue is in the ‘all students behave impeccably’. Of course they do, because each and everyone would do ANYTHING to remain in the school, to go to upper school and to be accepted to the Company. And I do mean ANYTHING, such is their mindset. In the early days they may not even have been aware of some of the very subtle abuse taking place such is the nature of a’Ballet class’ ......

 

This in bucketloads.  They have been drilled into obedience from an early age, and are so desperate to remain at the school, they will put up with almost anything.

3 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

Here we are presented with 4 cases and make concluding remarks. How about the thousands of others with different experiences 

I am reminded of a phrase which is often used on Mumsnet.

"The only acceptable level of abuse is none".

4 hours ago, Medora said:

But there will probably always be an upper limit for safety and also being able to dance the choreography as intended? You can move the cut off limit further up, and we will still end up with this exact debate at some stage. 

But does that inevitably mean that some young dancers won't have started their periods by 17 or 18, or that children starve themselves and develop anorexia because eating less is the only thing they are in control of, or that they are so emotionally broken by the constant criticism that they have to leave training altogether? Lets not also forget that many of the issues were not covered by this programme at all, which concentrated on only one aspect.

6 hours ago, Ballet_novice said:

This is not true. And believe me there is a very open dialogue between parte an and school. This documentary tend to be sensationalistic and so not offer a balanced view

With all due respect, it is very true. And I speak not from having watched the documentary (I still haven't) but from knowing how it affected my daughter during her time in vocational training. And from knowing what others have gone through as well, although obviously I can't speak for them. They are afraid to speak up because they are scared it will make matters worse.

19 minutes ago, Sim said:

That’s the point I was making.  There are more important issues to discuss. I wasn’t insinuating that things are fine just because no current students are interviewed.  I wouldn’t expect them to be. I was just giving an overview of the programme as requested by Geoff.  

No current students would have dared to stick their head above the parapet. It would be the kiss of death for their career, and they know it. 

35 minutes ago, LinMM said:

If we are going to accept more realistic body shapes and weight for women then this is bound to have a knock on affect for male dancers. We need more variety there too …at least some taller and stronger men within a company which I think is starting to happen. 

A lot of the mental health problems that students (and professional dancers) suffer are as a result of continually being told they aren't trying, they aren't good enough, they aren't ever going to get anywhere. That happens to many dancers, and isn't necessarily to do with their weight or physical appearance. Some students are utterly humiliated in front of their peers, and demoralised to the point that they can't even bring themselves to ask for help.

Another big issue is fear. Fear that if they say anything to their parents, then they will be taken out of the school, or that they worry they will have let their parents down. Fear that if they complain or stand up for themselves, their funding will be taken away or assessed out. The fear that nobody likes a troublemaker and if they become known for it, then they will never get a job. The fear that the one thing they live for and have dreamed of since they were a toddler will be taken away from them.

So they say nothing. I applaud the bravery of those who have spoken out.

3 hours ago, Dreaming said:

Exactly as is reported in the BBC programme, the teacher justifies the bullying by saying the dance world is competitive and by saying they were treated that way, and it didn’t do them any harm. 

I knew it!

I bloomin' well knew they'd come out with that excuse, and I said so earlier in this thread. See my post on Friday at 18.31.

I have opened a thread on a popular parenting forum elsewhere on the internet (yes, okay, Mumsnet) in case anyone wishes to make comments which can't be made on here without making things impossible for our volunteer moderators by contravening the site rules.

Please, if anyone has anything really contentious to say, please avail yourself of that. We really don't want this thread on this forum to be hidden or removed. Thank you so much. 

Just for clarification, my DD's departure from vocational training was not eating disorder-related. 

3 hours ago, Betty said:

It is a very upsetting programme and I’m very sorry to all of you that have entered a ballet school with such hope and joy for ballet and emerged with traumatic mental health issues. It is a disgrace that this has been tolerated and covered up for so long and continues to be minimized, brushed away as an individual problem about which institutions have different memories/records. Not good enough.

I do hope this is a moment for wider investigation and change - raising awareness is a crucial first step. All the best to everyone affected by this issue. 

It is six years since my DD had to leave full-time ballet training (is 6 years 'several' or more than several?) and she still feels unable to talk about it. She won't go there - she says she just can't even bear to think about how awful it was. She's shut it away, and got on with her life outside the dance world.

I have previously been approached by a journalist, however in view of my (now adult) DD's feelings on the matter, we were not able to assist them.

'Recollections may vary' sums it up very well when it comes to what I imagine would have been her school's view of what happened to her. They were incapable of seeing her point of view at the time, let alone now.

I'm out this evening, so will try to watch the programme when I can. I expect my blood pressure to rise to boiling point.

Agree with the above. You could also ask your ballet teacher to check your technique to ensure that you are not pulling back and 'locking' your knees.

And another 'excuse' often heard from a certain type of teacher: "Well I was trained using these methods, and it never did me any harm".

It puts the resilience of children into question, and is basically accusing them of not having sufficient moral fibre to be able to cope with stringent training.

22 hours ago, DancingWellies said:

I haven't posted here in a long time, mainly due to the trauma of lower school. Daughter graduated from a different institution this year and whilst had a much more positive experience in upper school it still left a lot to be desired. I hope Panorama blows the lid off the outdated and down right destructive teaching styles of many of the schools. I hope they don't get the right of reply, one of the key problems is they don't see the issues resulting from their teaching approaches. They need shocking into realising significant change is needed. The evidence is all there, the drop out rates between year 7 & 12, the number who fail to gain a place at upper school despite 5 years of training from the same institution. The number that quit dance completely post graduation. There's always going to be some who don't make it through but it's not a small number. If it was me I'd be asking why so few of the kids we'd trained weren't up to the standard we wanted for upper school, that shows a fundamental failure of the teaching (or initial student selection). They are supposed to be elite training establishments but it seems to be a one size fits all approach, they are supposed to be working with the best dancers of their generation, a more motivational and personalised approach is appropriate. If kids don't make it through in large numbers it's got to be the teaching, not the kids.

 

I have a horrible feeling the Panorama program will concentrate on the stereo typical weight shaming issues which are important but really only a symptom of the much bigger changes needed to resolve the current failings where it's all down to the student and never the fault of the teacher.

 

The annoying thing is there are examples of great motivational teaching out there, from personal experience NYB do a great job of building up the dancers rather than pounding them into the ground.

I have noticed that the usual defence of the school in these situations is a "Well of course the real reason that they didn't succeed / got assessed out / fell by the wayside / suffered mental health problems is because basically they weren't good enough, and all this complaining is sour grapes".

40 minutes ago, alison said:

I fully expect it to be displaced by a programme on Raac!

That will probably be a Question Time Special...